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Old 01-04-2021, 07:25 PM   #21
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Level one = pedal assist and limited to 20mph

Level 2 = pedal assist and throttle and limited to 20 mph

Level 3 = pedall assist and throttle and limited to 28mph

As I recall

Edit: I was off a bit

https://www.juicedbikes.com/pages/e-...UaAhdHEALw_wcB
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Old 01-04-2021, 07:41 PM   #22
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The essence of the three classifications is that Level one is typically treated as a bike, which means bicycle regulations and vehicle licensing/operator licensing/insurance requirements. Level three is often treated as a motorcycle, level two can fall on either side depending on the jurisdiction. Where I am, level 2 and level 3 are no longer legal on the road, bike path, or park trail. They don’t qualify as bicycles under the law, but they lack the equipment and certifications to be licensed as motor vehicles. We haven’t seen any discussion of grandfathering them here, so they may all end up in the crusher. We had years of non enforcement, so level 2 and 3 bikes were made and sold, not legally, but sold none the less. The distributors and dealers claimed that they were bikes, and are now evading responsibility. Regulations vary across North America, so consider what the current and potential future laws are where you want to use it.

If you want to be safe buy a level one. If you want to take a chance, or only use it on your private property, buy a level 2 or 3.
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Old 01-04-2021, 07:55 PM   #23
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The essence of the three classifications is that Level one is typically treated as a bike, which means bicycle regulations and vehicle licensing/operator licensing/insurance requirements. Level three is often treated as a motorcycle, level two can fall on either side depending on the jurisdiction. Where I am, level 2 and level 3 are no longer legal on the road, bike path, or park trail. They donít qualify as bicycles under the law, but they lack the equipment and certifications to be licensed as motor vehicles. We havenít seen any discussion of grandfathering them here, so they may all end up in the crusher. We had years of non enforcement, so level 2 and 3 bikes were made and sold, not legally, but sold none the less. The distributors and dealers claimed that they were bikes, and are now evading responsibility. Regulations vary across North America, so consider what the current and potential future laws are where you want to use it.

If you want to be safe buy a level one. If you want to take a chance, or only use it on your private property, buy a level 2 or 3.
That is the fear, and more and more jurisdictions are chiming in. That is why I did not even consider a 2 or 3.
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Old 01-04-2021, 08:10 PM   #24
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That is the fear, and more and more jurisdictions are chiming in. That is why I did not even consider a 2 or 3.
I wouldn’t either.

The issue here is that so many non compliant machines were sold over the years. One target market was those who lost licenses for DUIs. And many of the compliant machines had widely available dealer service codes to bypass the speed limiters. The shady dealers and manufacturers essentially lied, and consumers are now left holding the bag.
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Old 01-04-2021, 08:41 PM   #25
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I wouldnít either.

The issue here is that so many non compliant machines were sold over the years. One target market was those who lost licenses for DUIs. And many of the compliant machines had widely available dealer service codes to bypass the speed limiters. The shady dealers and manufacturers essentially lied, and consumers are now left holding the bag.
I gotta tell you, at my age, 20 mph is fast enough. My days of thrashing a single track have been over for awhile. I found I dont bounce well anymore. Just sort of splat and crack.
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Old 01-04-2021, 09:04 PM   #26
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Montanablue, that’s a nice ride! I hope you enjoy your e-bike as much as we love ours.

My wife’s got an I.C.E Adventure recumbent trike with Shimano Steps assist. After chasing her on the trail I got a Specialized Como 5 and love it.

Yes, it’s a Class 3 but I think if you ride it like an adult you won’t get called out by the authorities.

Happy trails!
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Old 01-04-2021, 11:35 PM   #27
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I gotta tell you, at my age, 20 mph is fast enough. My days of thrashing a single track have been over for awhile. I found I don't bounce well anymore. Just sort of splat and crack.
I hear you.

We used to ride only the sport bikes (Cervelo), and held 35 km/hr on the flats, but I recall hitting 80 km/hr on descents (more than that on Ventoux). Not now.

We ride our city bikes in the off season, and most of the time we are at 20 km/hr, that is enough of a work out.

No electric bikes at home, but I have ridden a Bullitt electric assist cargo bike a few full days doing event setup, and found I kept bumping into the governor on the flats, so worked to hold it to 30 km/hr. It seemed comfortable at that speed, but it was heavy.

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Old 01-05-2021, 09:00 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by jeffmc306 View Post
Montanablue, thatís a nice ride! I hope you enjoy your e-bike as much as we love ours.

My wifeís got an I.C.E Adventure recumbent trike with Shimano Steps assist. After chasing her on the trail I got a Specialized Como 5 and love it.

Yes, itís a Class 3 but I think if you ride it like an adult you wonít get called out by the authorities.

Happy trails!
Jeff, I had no idea the Como was class 3. I bought one for my lovely wife last year. I never got on it during the purchasing process. She absolutely loves it. I do not think itís the ď5Ē model, as it has no throttle, but it may still have power past 20 mph. Three level of power. I got on it for the first time the other day (Iím almost a foot taller than she is). What a blast! Now Iím considering one.
We ride a local ďrails to trailsĒ park near us (KATY trail) Iíve never seen anyone checking bikes in any way. I hope we donít have trouble down the road if it is class 2 or 3.
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Old 01-05-2021, 09:14 AM   #29
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Jeff, I had no idea the Como was class 3. I bought one for my lovely wife last year. I never got on it during the purchasing process. She absolutely loves it. I do not think itís the ď5Ē model, as it has no throttle, but it may still have power past 20 mph. Three level of power. I got on it for the first time the other day (Iím almost a foot taller than she is). What a blast! Now Iím considering one.
We ride a local ďrails to trailsĒ park near us (KATY trail) Iíve never seen anyone checking bikes in any way. I hope we donít have trouble down the road if it is class 2 or 3.
And you may not see it on the Katy for awhile....or at all. It seems that the national parks have led the way in wrestling with this nationally (and perhaps most relevantly for a camping forum). I have read that state parks, forest service etc are looking to follow NPS.
I think "abusers" will dictate the need for locality action. ...and you KNOW that there are those who will want to speed. Hit a few walkers and joggers, and it will be over.
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Old 01-05-2021, 09:15 AM   #30
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Electric Conversions

Are there any good electric conversion kits?
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Old 01-05-2021, 09:32 AM   #31
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Are there any good electric conversion kits?
Yes, but do your homework. Lots and Lots of entries into the market overall. Try and find out the component manufacturers and read reviews. Especially the "professional " ones. They are typically throttle controlled, for simplicity.
Read up on pedal assist. Their software is critical to a natural feel. Shimano and Bosch seem to have it down. Dont think they have conversion kits.
Also read up on hub drive vs. Center drive. I am a center drive fan.
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Old 01-05-2021, 10:18 AM   #32
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Also, and pertinent to the subject of this thread, not all e bikes are extraordinarily heavy. My bikes weigh just 37 lb each....sans battery. That's just 2 pounds heavier than my old mountain bikes.
So no rack issues at all. I use the Arvika tongue rack and at 37 lb, I can still easily lift them on and off. That was a huge decision point for me.
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Old 01-05-2021, 11:20 AM   #33
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Yes, but do your homework.
If I were to use an e bike or conversion on public land and trails (where bicycles are allowed) What would the best option be to avoid hassles with rangers and law enforcement?
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Old 01-05-2021, 11:27 AM   #34
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I have a Hilltoppers ebike conversion on my Trek. Pretty simple install ó new front tire and wheel, clamp the on/off switch on the handlebar. Strap battery pack (straps included) on pannier or lay in basket. Tie up wires with zip ties. About 30 minutes.

You peddle off and, if you like, switch to ďonĒ (no linear throttle) and scoot along at about 15 mph on level ground. Come to a hill and you need to peddle but, with the assist, it is easy to mosey up.

I have never ridden it over 7 miles so cannot attest if it really has a 20 mile range. On my third set of batteries in 10 years (I am cheap so use 12VDC 7AH lead acid batteries)

When I bought it over 10 years ago for my commute in Yellowstone, it was $499. I suspect it is more now.
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Old 01-05-2021, 12:08 PM   #35
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Check the Como model number; might be a Class 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by GettinAway View Post
Jeff, I had no idea the Como was class 3. I bought one for my lovely wife last year. I never got on it during the purchasing process. She absolutely loves it. I do not think itís the ď5Ē model, as it has no throttle, but it may still have power past 20 mph. Three level of power. I got on it for the first time the other day (Iím almost a foot taller than she is). What a blast! Now Iím considering one.
We ride a local ďrails to trailsĒ park near us (KATY trail) Iíve never seen anyone checking bikes in any way. I hope we donít have trouble down the road if it is class 2 or 3.
GettinAway, check to see what model your wifeís Como is. If itís a Como 3, itís a Class 1; Como 4 & 5 are Class 3 with larger batteries; more powerful motors. Class 3 has pedal assist up to 28 MPH (but no throttle). Class 2 is up to 20 MPH assist plus a throttle but Specialized doesnít offer a Class 2.

Specialized worked with Brose, a German manufacturer on the motor. They got into the e-bike motor business after adapting it from their automotive electric power steering motors supplied to Audi, Mercedes and others. Itís got a Gates belt driving gears and is super quiet and powerful. Perfect for mid-drive e-bikes.

I love the Specialized Mission Control phone app that allows you to custom tailor the amount of assist in each of the three levels. I turned down the assist on Level 1 so itís ďjust a littleĒ which seems to be perfect. Iíll bet I ride 90% in that level. If I hit a headwind Iíll crank it up to Level 2. In Level 3 you can keep up with city traffic.

It also has a Ride feature in the app that tracks your route and all the data. By the way, you can tell the App how far you want to ride and what percentage of power you want remaining and it will manage the battery output to make sure youíll get there and back. Pretty slick!

I first bought a Specialized Vado 4 but the frame was too large for me so I returned it and found the Como 5. Both are great bikes.

By the way, in the pouch of material with the comes with the bike is a Class 1 sticker for those that are worried about the Pedal Police. Honestly, if you ride respectfully on trails I doubt anyone will stop you.
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Old 01-05-2021, 12:56 PM   #36
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If I were to use an e bike or conversion on public land and trails (where bicycles are allowed) What would the best option be to avoid hassles with rangers and law enforcement?
First of all.....we don't know what, if any, hassles there will be. I don't know enough about the retrofit kits to advise, but I believe they all have throttles. One bit I read indicated the theory is, if a Ranger sees you tooling along and not pedaling, that is a definite "probable cause", if you will. The other is obvious high speed. Another is some of the obviousness of the full tilt $10 or $20k 750 watt mountain e-bikes. Therein lies the real concern for parks, IMO. They allegedly tear up the trails and their riders are "push the envelope" speed demons.
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Old 01-05-2021, 01:43 PM   #37
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If I were to use an e bike or conversion on public land and trails (where bicycles are allowed) What would the best option be to avoid hassles with rangers and law enforcement?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
First of all.....we don't know what, if any, hassles there will be. I don't know enough about the retrofit kits to advise, but I believe they all have throttles. One bit I read indicated the theory is, if a Ranger sees you tooling along and not pedaling, that is a definite "probable cause", if you will. The other is obvious high speed. Another is some of the obviousness of the full tilt $10 or $20k 750 watt mountain e-bikes. Therein lies the real concern for parks, IMO. They allegedly tear up the trails and their riders are "push the envelope" speed demons.
Agreed. Limit your shopping to ebikes that are designed as electric assist, eg there is no power from the motor when you are not pedaling. Follow the guidelines for Level 1, which limits electric power, and top speed, whether or not the vendor knows what Level 1 even is.

The challenge with the retrofit kits is that it is more difficult to use a torque sensor on the crank, so they fall back to just using a hand throttle.

The authorities look not just for top speed, but the usual give away is if you start off without pedaling. It is easy to spot. You can pretend to be pedaling at a steady speed without applying much effort, but you can't get around the start off.

Even with a Level 1, some jurisdictions ban assisted bikes due to conflicts with other users. Our city parks here is one example; we have a great waterfront path system (28 km long) but all assisted bikes are banned from it, due to conflicts with slower moving people, whether walking or cycling.

Look for a Shimano or Bosch drive system. I also prefer the mid drive. And note that in Europe these regulations are far more established, so the manufacturers cater to that market. Many of the bikes sold in North America are available with or without a throttle, and the local suppliers include that option as a 'feature', even though it is possible to operate without it installed, using just the e assist mode.

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Old 01-05-2021, 03:00 PM   #38
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Old 01-05-2021, 05:39 PM   #39
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Old 01-06-2021, 06:34 AM   #40
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GettinAway, check to see what model your wifeís Como is. If itís a Como 3, itís a Class 1; Como 4 & 5 are Class 3 with larger batteries; more powerful motors. Class 3 has pedal assist up to 28 MPH (but no throttle). Class 2 is up to 20 MPH assist plus a throttle but Specialized doesnít offer a Class 2.

Itís got a Gates belt driving gears and is super quiet and powerful. Perfect for mid-drive e-bikes.

By the way, in the pouch of material with the comes with the bike is a Class 1 sticker for those that are worried about the Pedal Police. Honestly, if you ride respectfully on trails I doubt anyone will stop you.
Thanks Jeff. I believe her Como is the 3, but Iím not sure. Itís very quiet, and has more range than sheíll ever need. We did 27 mi the other day, and she still had more than 50% left. Sheís in level one 90% of the time. I think we get up well over 20 mph on some downhills, but I doubt sheís getting any assist at that point. Pics are from our trip last summer to WY & MT. Hopefully sheíll be riding it in BB NP in a few weeks.
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