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Old 12-20-2019, 08:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
When a RV is winterized for the season it should have no plain water left in the tanks, I said that already. When a RV is temporarily "winterized" for subzero travel and other scenarios, not so much.

Clearly not if subjected to extended periods, but you are moving the goal post. I clearly indicated the situation involved short nighttime freezing combined with non-freezing daytime temperatures. Please don't equivocate.

It may well have been a screw up, that is an opinion.
Ok, look... if you're ok being told YOUR van is "winterized" and there's water in your tank, or water heater or whatever, and you're ok with that, more power to you. If I'd paid to have my MY coach "winterized" presuming that meant the RV was good for the winter and they'd left water in the tank, there'd be Hell to pay.

Leaving water in the system trying to get by for a "short nighttime freezing combined with non-freezing daytime temperatures" is NOT "winterizing," it's hoping to get by without freeze damage. And that is NOT what the OP said the dealership offered.

And yes, what this dealership did is malpractice, and is unacceptable.

Case closed.
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Old 12-21-2019, 09:27 AM   #22
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Ok, look... if you're ok being told YOUR van is "winterized" and there's water in your tank, or water heater or whatever, and you're ok with that, more power to you.
Again you are moving the goalpost. Did you even bother to read the earlier posts? Did you consider the context?

The Van was in for service for a few days and would not be attended. The weather was turning colder, early morning freezes followed by daytime warmup above freezing. The dealer and customer were both concerned about the weather for the short duration the van was at the shop and the dealer called to suggest TEMPORARY winterization protection for the next few days. This was not the dealer winterizing the van for all of winter as you and others are implying. Please don't move the goalpost, there are readers here looking for accurate information and facts and taking things out of context and changing what others say is deceitful and misleading.

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If I'd paid to have my MY coach "winterized" presuming that meant the RV was good for the winter and they'd left water in the tank, there'd be Hell to pay.
Clearly but that was not the context of this thread. Pleases circle where I said it was Okay for a shop to winterize "good for the winter" with the tanks unprotected. This would also be a good time for you to read the thread before you launch off on someone providing sound facts rather than opinion and accusations.

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Originally Posted by 85MH325 View Post
Leaving water in the system trying to get by for a "short nighttime freezing combined with non-freezing daytime temperatures" is NOT "winterizing," it's hoping to get by without freeze damage. And that is NOT what the OP said the dealership offered.
If you scan the internet and especially this forum, you would come to understand the term "winterizing" is used in many different contexts. Most often it means what you claim is its only definition, however a not insignificant number of experienced campers use the same term for short term protection while on the road in subfreezing temperatures even for a few hours, others for a day or two while waiting out sever cold, and still others for situations where they must leave the unit unattended and there is risk of cold weather. I am surprised you seem not to understand this....

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And yes, what this dealership did is malpractice, and is unacceptable.

Case closed.
Nothing more than uniformed, stubborn opinion. Very sad for a forum that is attempting to provide accurate information and sound advice to people with less experience.
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:22 AM   #23
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Regardless of whether the water tank could sustain damage depending on how they winterized the trailer by either blowing out the lines without adding antifreeze through the pump, the water pump may have sustained damage.
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:41 AM   #24
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Nothing more than uniformed, stubborn opinion. Very sad for a forum that is attempting to provide accurate information and sound advice to people with less experience.
Forums are what they are and attract a variety of people.

I pondered even posting again after your rant, but I thought I'd just give you a little insight before I wandered off. Apparently you need to see a CV before someone's advice is valid; so I'll provide you a short one:

I've been camping in just about every way there is TO camp since 1959; sleeping in cars, tents, motorcycle tent camping, pop-ups, hard-sides and motorhomes. I started towing travel trailers in 1980. In 1987, I lived full-time in my first Airstream, a 1970 23' Safari Special for a year. From 1990 until 2006 I've owned all of the Airstreams in my signature. In addtion to those, I've had a veritable parade of fiberglass trailers including two four-seasons-equipped Bigfoot travel trailers. I've variously lived in SoCal, NoCal, NW Iowa and now eastern Iowa, and I've travelled the country extensively in all four season in many of those RVs. I have winterized and de-winterized them all, particularly living in Iowa. I am familiar with when an RV needs to be winterized and what the term means.

I have bought, restored, and flipped probably twenty RVs since 2002 and done all of the electrical, plumbing and other restoration work required myself on those units. Over the years, I have replaced freeze-damaged toilet valves, lengths of interior plumbing, burst water heaters, burst water pumps and strainers, and broken valves all from freeze damage, as well has had to repair damage to the RV structure caused by burst lines and valves.

I have been a member and contributor here at Airforums since 2003, about eight months or so after Andy took the forums online. I was a moderator here from 2004 until 2006 when I sold my last Airstream. I was also a moderator and admin on Fiberglass RV.com for a number of years.

So, friend, in my nearly forty years of RV'ing experience I may not be as ignorant about these issues as you seem to think, and you would do well to be more circumspect in your criticisms; both what you say and to whom the criticism is leveled.

As I said, if YOU are fine having YOUR trailer "winterized" with your fresh water tank, or water heater, or whatever left full, then you just go for it. It's YOUR wallet for the repairs. Your incessant rant that it IS ok doesn't make it so. It is NOT the best advice you can give on a public forum, nor is it acceptable for a dealership to do when it performs a "winterization."

Best wishes... and may you have a long and successful RV life.
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Old 12-21-2019, 11:29 AM   #25
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So, friend, in my nearly forty years of RV'ing experience I may not be as ignorant about these issues as you seem to think, and you would do well to be more circumspect in your criticisms; both what you say and to whom the criticism is leveled.
Circle where I claimed you were ignorant about winterizing for the season; I didn't make that claim. I find your tendency to twist peoples words troubling. My criticism was that you changed the context of my words and the tread as a whole. Let me be clear, I don't know you and I don't "think" you are ignorant about winterizing RVs. I am disappointed that you equivocate.

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Originally Posted by 85MH325 View Post
As I said, if YOU are fine having YOUR trailer "winterized" with your fresh water tank, or water heater, or whatever left full, then you just go for it. It's YOUR wallet for the repairs. Your incessant rant that it IS ok doesn't make it so. It is NOT the best advice you can give on a public forum, nor is it acceptable for a dealership to do when it performs a "winterization."
Here are more misquotes and deceit on your part. This tread was about water left in the fresh water tank only, the OP clearly stated that except for the fresh tank, everything was "winterized". Let me again be clear; there are situations as you and others state, where it is would be folly to leave a full tank of water. Partially filled tanks are another matter, but not subject of this thread. There are some situations where it is necessary to endure short periods of subfreezing temperatures with water in the tanks. This is a demonstrable fact, it is not opinion. There are also situations where you can safely take either path.

The "incessant rant" is supported by physical chemistry and engineering principles. It is not uninformed opinion, it is fact, and in certain situations, it may well be the "best advice" one can give. I'm not going to knowingly lead one astray on this forum, and I'm certainly not going to equivocate to win an argument or avoid having to make corrections.

I have repeatably noted that when a dealer performs "winterization" for the duration of the season, that must include draining the tanks. It does because it serves no useful purpose to leave fluid in them and has potential to be detrimental for several reasons not the least of which is risk of damage due to a prolonged hard freezes. There are also situations where a shop can perform "winterization" for a short period and legitimately not fully drain tanks. Again this is fact, not opinion.

I get that you disagree, and that is your prerogative, but you cannot accurately dispute the fact that there is no freeze risk to a large tank of water when the duration and depth of subfreezing temperatures is short. This is a fact that people on this forum should understand.
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Old 12-21-2019, 01:02 PM   #26
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Don't think I've ever seen a tread go this far "off the rails".

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!
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Old 12-21-2019, 04:50 PM   #27
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Don't think I've ever seen a tread go this far "off the rails".

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!

so was it winterized, or not?

haha, just kiddin'

shut 'er down!
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Old 12-21-2019, 06:32 PM   #28
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See yesterday’s post by the OP. The service invoice for winterizing included draining the fresh water tank, and the tank was still full. Looks like the RV dealership was at fault, didn’t winterize properly, and charged for something they didn’t do.

So there’s “winterizing” and “kinda sorta but not really winterizing?”

Maybe no damage was done, but what’s all the arguing about?
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Old 12-22-2019, 08:03 AM   #29
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I don't see anyone arguing about the stock description the dealer uses on the invoice to describe their standard seasonal "winterizing" procedure. I wonder what charge there would be to only open the drain on the fresh tank and let the water run out on the ground. So what credit is owed for not including opening the valve when their stock description includes it? Answer zero. The dealer absolutely should have been more clear about what they were going to do and did do for the few additional days the RV was to be in the shop.

FYI, many tanks have convex bottoms and low spots that do not drain so some water stays in the tanks. Does anyone want to argue a dealer that fails to drain 100% of the water out of a tank has not winterized? At what level is a tank at risk? Do you know? If a tank is at zero risk for water freeze damage, is it winterized?

What some people commenting on this thread seem to not understand is that there really is a range of steps people in the real world take to protect various parts of their RV from freezing. People informally refer to many of those steps as winterizing. This is simply a fact, it is not my opinion, and it can easily be verified by googling or reading through the many threads here. Furthermore, there was no risk of damage to the tank. Because this is the case, it is demonstrably false to accuse the dealer of negligence, that's all. The tendency for people to substitute faulty opinion for fact and then equivocate about it is what the argument is about.
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Old 12-22-2019, 08:09 AM   #30
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I’m not sure what the argument is about or why you’re choosing this as the “hill to die on”.

99% of people who pay a dealer to winterize are expecting the full-blown winterization procedure. If you like to do it in stages, go with God. Happy for you. The OP didn’t get what he paid for and while odds are good there wasn’t any damage based on the description of temps during the period before he discovered the problem, if he had NOT discovered the problem and went the whole winter you can be sure there would be significant damage. To say nothing of the lack of confidence I would have in the effectiveness of the entire job.

Happy Festivus!
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Old 12-22-2019, 08:49 AM   #31
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I always winterize myself and to the degree I choose to winterize, a combo of air pressure and a little bit of pink to be sure the water pump and filter cannot freeze(again).
However, last year after our final rally I took the trailer to a dealer to have my failed water tank replaced. I winterized the trailer first because I knew it would sit on their lot through the winter...although it sat there longer than I expected. I told the dealer that I expected they would have to put water back in to test the install and that I wanted them to fully winterize the trailer when they were done. When I picked the trailer up, still winter, I made sure that all drain valves and user valves were open.
However, when I commissioned the trailer this Spring, in my driveway, I could not get any water at the galley sink. After some flashlight and storage antics I discovered two shutoff valves under the sink that I did not even know were there. Not sure why they closed them although clearly most plumbing fixtures have shutoff valves...I have just never needed them. My message here is that I am sure there a bunch of ways to "winterize" an Airstream and no one has ever defined the one right way.
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Old 12-22-2019, 12:17 PM   #32
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If a poly tank were 91% full or more there would certainly be damage in an extended hard freeze. Between 30% and 91% it would depend on the elasticity of the tank walls. Below 30%, for common variations and geometries of poly tanks, damage is very unlikely. The OP described the tank as "full" so an extended freeze could have caused the tank to split depending on what he meant by "full".
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Old 12-22-2019, 01:11 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
. . .
. . . the many threads here . . .
. . .
. . . including this Sticky Topic:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f458...rize-7222.html

in the Winterizing sub-forum:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f458/



Well said SSM . . . "hill" indeed!

The OP's basic question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hirstpb View Post
. . .
Has anyone else heard such a protocol?
. . . has been answered many times IMO. I will next hit the red triangle at the lower left, and request that this thread be closed.

Happy Holidaze !!!



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Old 12-22-2019, 01:26 PM   #34
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Peter,

Such a Killjoy! At least this thread is not about SUV vs truck, FORD vs Chevy, ProPride vs anything else, and so on....
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Old 12-23-2019, 04:42 AM   #35
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Peter,



Such a Killjoy! At least this thread is not about SUV vs truck, FORD vs Chevy, ProPride vs anything else, and so on....

Larry


Larry - if you leave the FW tank full over the winter but are equipped with a ProPride, the tank won’t freeze.

You’re welcome.
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Old 12-23-2019, 05:02 AM   #36
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Larry - if you leave the FW tank full over the winter but are equipped with a ProPride, the tank won’t freeze.

You’re welcome.
Wonderful!!!! Especially because the trailer is parked next to a Silverado 2500HD!

Larry
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Old 12-23-2019, 10:10 AM   #37
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Larry - if you leave the FW tank full over the winter but are equipped with a ProPride, the tank won’t freeze.

You’re welcome.
So, if I understand you correctly then, the ProPride is exothermic? I presume it follows then that a Hensley must be endothermic causing the tanks to freeze faster? If you have a Hensley in merely temperate weather, would THAT give you water-cooler temps in the tank then? There are SO many options to explore!

Sorry, couldn't help m'self. Apologies to everyone.
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Old 12-23-2019, 10:57 AM   #38
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No, the proponents of Hensley design hitches cause exothermic reactions from the doubters and naysayers. We’re just a catalyst, it seems.
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Old 12-23-2019, 10:59 AM   #39
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No worries. Sometimes we need endothermic humor to offset the exothermic tendencies (typically more heat than light) of most forum discussions.
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Old 12-23-2019, 05:32 PM   #40
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I just stopped in to see how we're doing in here, and holy smokes.....my equalizer hitch is well, it's

JUST RIGHT

It EQUALIZES the water temperature in the fresh water tank, no matter what the temperature is outside
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