Overhead Air Conditioning LOUD!

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by rowiebowie

New alternative to consider: 60.8 db on high / 56.3db on low.
...

Awesome post - thanks!

Two issues:

(1) I sure would like it if someone would open up this thing and confirm that it is ALL ALUMINUM AND COPPER in the coolant workings. That should go without saying, but it's not always true. We had to replace our 7-year-old house a/c system in 2017 because of corrosion in the coil and a broken fan both. The fins were aluminum but the lines were ordinary steel which corroded worse than mid-century galvanized water piping. Our existing Interstate a/c, while loud, does have quality no-steel construction, which is why it still works perfectly after 12 years.

(2) It's not clear to me WHERE James procured this thing. Many outlets do not appear to have it in stock yet. I looked on the Fit RV website, but no posts yet. Just the new vid.

[wachuko]

He does mention that there is not much info out yet and that we should see it listed towards the end of the week...

Sounds great! Where can I get one?

If you’re looking for further information TODAY on the Coleman-Mach 10 NDQ, you probably won’t find much. But I’ve been in touch with the folks at Coleman-Mach, and they tell me that they are updating their website this week, and they should have more information on the NDQ available by the end of the week. I’ll come back and update this post with their official links once I see that it’s live.

https://www.thefitrv.com/rv-tips/the...itioner-again/

[InterBlog]

Thanks. I looked in his blog and didn't find that (because it's not there). It's not a static write-up, so it really should have taken the form of a blog post, if we are sticking with content development protocols. It is on his homepage, but only at the bottom, not in what should be the new content section.

Edit: I'm applying rationality and logic to a site which is monetized - totally my bad. The posts are arranged to reflect some of the underlying representation agreements, rather than being situated to highlight important content first.

[wachuko]

The one sold by Advanced RV is lower decibels still... but I wonder if enough to justify the cost... this one gets close at 56.3 dB in low. I believe ARV is 55/53 dB... If prices from other untis are similar, we might be looking at less than half the cost of the Advaced RV unit.

As InterBlog mentions, internal construction would be key... must be aluminum/copper to even consider moving over to it...

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by wachuko

....
As InterBlog mentions, internal construction would be key... must be aluminum/copper to even consider moving over to it...

Someone pulled apart the Zero Breeze small air conditioner and it was linked in a Class B Forum thread (here). Many of us were surprised to see quality workings in that video. But then reportedly, the seller could not keep pace with demand, the units manufactured later were outsourced to China, and the quality and reliability declined drastically.

Anyway, point being, those types of YouTube videos are very valuable. I'm hoping someone gets curious and inspects this new Coleman accordingly.

[Acheron2010]

Even though I have ducted air, I sometimes want to hear the whispers and rustling leaves in some movies, so I use over-the-ear bluetooth headphones like these

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I haven't had a chance to chat with them yet. I was referred to Frank Kolasinski (team page) and I left a VM.

I did go looking for such confirmation on the internet, and I did not find it (but I didn't dig deeply).

Edit: Another reference - this Sprinter Forum thread.
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=60651

Update long time coming on this issue.

I got stalled last year trying to determine whether the Houghton air conditioner could be made to work with our van. The issue was that ARV could not (or would not) tell me / us what the inrush current was. Without that piece of information, we could not even begin to evaluate whether a retrofit would be achievable.

Fast forward to a somewhat irritable discussion during which someone dug up one of ARV's outside consultants. He says he measured the inrush current at 45 amps.

That being the case, it is possible that the Houghton could be installed on a rig like ours. As-yet-unanswered questions:

(1) What are the electrical ramifications of the supplemental electrical transformer it apparently needs given its Australian voltage requirements; and more specifically,

(2) Can it be used with the EasyStart, because there's no way it would run without one of those integrated.

(3) If the answer to (2) is yes, would a supplemental housing be needed for the EasyStart, or could it be internalized as we did with ours on our existing clunker of an a/c unit?

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

Update long time coming on this issue.

I got stalled last year trying to determine whether the Houghton air conditioner could be made to work with our van. The issue was that ARV could not (or would not) tell me / us what the inrush current was. Without that piece of information, we could not even begin to evaluate whether a retrofit would be achievable.

Fast forward to a somewhat irritable discussion during which someone dug up one of ARV's outside consultants. He says he measured the inrush current at 45 amps.

That being the case, it is possible that the Houghton could be installed on a rig like ours. As-yet-unanswered questions:

(1) What are the electrical ramifications of the supplemental electrical transformer it apparently needs given its Australian voltage requirements; and more specifically,

(2) Can it be used with the EasyStart, because there's no way it would run without one of those integrated.

(3) If the answer to (2) is yes, would a supplemental housing be needed for the EasyStart, or could it be internalized as we did with ours on our existing clunker of an a/c unit?

INTERBLOG - If my understanding is correct, you have contacted ARV and/or Houghton and an actual owner to find answers to these questions but did not get definitive answers. So how is anyone in AirForums going to be able to help? When a lot of us are also clueless on this better product. But if we have a local expert here, I too would love to see your questions answered. Will follow this thread.

Regarding Question #1 - why would you even consider using an Aussie setup? I am assuming your question centers around 50Hz vs. 60Hz setup. The answer is YES, one can always configure/adapt a transformer to go 110/120, 50/60Hz to any other voltage/frequency combo. But why introduce different electrical standards in your vehicle? It's already got two - 12vdc & 120vac 60Hz. Adding a 3rd is just tempting trouble. Why not just buy a USA version? Are you saying these units only come in 50Hz configuration? If it is, not worth it for me.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by Alex AVI

INTERBLOG - If my understanding is correct, you have contacted ARV and/or Houghton and an actual owner to find answers to these questions but did not get definitive answers. So how is anyone in AirForums going to be able to help?

..... why would you even consider using an Aussie setup? ....

Both excellent questions.

On the first, not AirForums - ClassBForum (this coming via the he says link in my post above). One of the frequent posters on ClassBForum has an ARV (he probably has the most expensive rig on that forum). When I mentioned that I could not get that information from ARV, he took exception to that and apparently dug up Fred Ahlgren, ARV's outside electrical consultant, to answer it.

On the second, I'm potentially willing to install a quieter air conditioner, to get rid of this roaring jet engine that is installed in our rig. I found two ways to make temporary peace with this unit:

(1) When I created the "office" at the front of our van with the swiveled passenger seat and Lagun table, I was able to put enough physical separation between myself and the unit such that it became bearable for short durations.

(2) Of course I sleep with ear plugs when I run it.

Those two things being true, in five years I've only slept with it running one time, that being two weeks ago when I landed in southwest Louisiana with the prevailing temperature being 94 degrees. It's just too burdensome to have it on. I'd rather just suck up the heat, or not travel at all (two weeks ago, I was traveling for business and I wasn't dictating my schedule).

However, I'm not even going to remotely consider an upgrade until I have verified beyond doubt that the Houghton would work in our rig. The market is playing catch-up (e.g., Coleman-Mach 10 NDQ), but the Houghton is still the quietest option right now, IF it can be made to work in our rigs.

Still unanswered: Can the Houghton work with an EasyStart for those of us who run lithium? I'm hoping to get an answer to that, too.

[wachuko]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

...Still unanswered: Can the Houghton work with an EasyStart for those of us who run lithium? I'm hoping to get an answer to that, too.

Why just not call them and find out. The times I have reached out to them, both via email and phone, they have been very responsive.

Their system is installed in their rigs which are lithium based only... so I would think that running on a lithium setup is not an issue...

Their most recent video compares their A/C to the Coleman and still comes out as the quieter alternative...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKTU641d7lE

I thought about having it delivered and doing the install myself, but we are just going to make it a trip for next year and have it installed by them. I also want them to color match the cover. We will get this done and visit some family that I have in Lorain and Dayton...

[Fixin2Drive]

The Houghton/ARV quiet AC unit appears to be the IBIS3 unit. That has a single speed compressor. While it is quieter at a lower evaporator fan speed, the compressor is still going at full speed.

The IBIS4 which is sold by Dometic in Auz has a variable speed compressor which will be a lot quieter and more efficient at anything below max speed. It also will not cycle on-off-on to maintain temperature - it will slow the compressor and run with vastly less cycling. It will also slow-start on its own without a high starting current surge.

I'd recommend that anyone thinking about upgrading their AC wait for the IBIS4 or similar. This technology is in a lot of residential air conditioners especially the mini-splits.

You can google "Dometic IBIS4" to check it out. Look at the installation manual and you will see the variable speed compressor in the schematic. On Wikipedia there is a good article on "Variable-Frequency Drive" that describes this technology. The article says: "For example, at 63% speed a motor load consumes only 25% of its full-speed power".

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Fixin2Drive

The Houghton/ARV quiet AC unit appears to be the IBIS3 unit. That has a single speed compressor.

You can google "Dometic IBIS4" to check it out. Look at the installation manual and you will see the variable speed compressor in the schematic.

FIXIN2DRIVE - Thank you for this. Definitely would make a difference in noise levels with non-ducted rv's.

WACHUKO - I think it was you who posted that ARV said these units are meant for static usage. Well if that is still the case, that sucks. Spending all that money to remove an albeit noisy unit, only to find out it's use is limited and fan circulation is affected negatively when rv is in motion? Is this still the case? The only reason I am considering this along with Volta lithium is to completely rid myself of the noisy Gen and noisy A/C to use while in motion. Not sure if that IBIS4 mentioned by FIXIN2DRIVE is constrained similarly?

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Alex AVI

FIXIN2DRIVE - Thank you for this. Definitely would make a difference in noise levels with non-ducted rv's.

WACHUKO - I think it was you who posted that ARV said these units are meant for static usage. Well if that is still the case, that sucks. Spending all that money to remove an albeit noisy unit, only to find out it's use is limited and fan circulation is affected negatively when rv is in motion? Is this still the case? The only reason I am considering this along with Volta lithium is to completely rid myself of the noisy Gen and noisy A/C to use while in motion. Not sure if that IBIS4 mentioned by FIXIN2DRIVE is constrained similarly?

Yes - the ARV quiet A/C is for stationary use only. I specifically asked that question at the ARV Fest in May. They said the airflow over the unit when driving causes a back flow in the condenser fan, slowing the fan and shuts down the unit. They also said they were looking at a possible fix.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Yes - the ARV quiet A/C is for stationary use only. I specifically asked that question at the ARV Fest in May. They said the airflow over the unit when driving causes a back flow in the condenser fan, slowing the fan and shuts down the unit. They also said they were looking at a possible fix.

MIKE - Thank you for confirming this. Maybe they will design some wind deflector device, i.e. similar to hood bug deflectors to alter the "jet stream" over & around the unit

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Alex AVI

. . . The only reason I am considering this along with Volta lithium is to completely rid myself of the noisy Gen and noisy A/C to use while in motion. Not sure if that IBIS4 mentioned by FIXIN2DRIVE is constrained similarly?

ALEX - since you also mentioned the Volta system I wanted to share this information I recently received from Volta regarding A/C options.

"Advanced RV has the new “Quiet Roof Air Conditioner” which is worth considering, as well as 2 separate emerging 58V Volta-Compatible roof AC units.

One of these units will be at Volta very soon for proof of compatibility and ratings review, but we feel strongly that it will be a great solution.

The leading benefit of the 58V Volta compatible AC units is the ability to run them without the inverter, and for significantly longer than a comparable 120 Volt unit through an inverter."

Stay tuned for more information as Volta brings a compatible A/C to market, eliminitating the need for a 3000 watt inverter.

[AKmtnpilot]

Had a Phoenix Cruiser B+ before our AS Globetrotter 25. The first winter in Florida was terrible with the noise from the non ducted a/c. Bit the bullet and had Advanced RV install a Houghton unit. Big difference. We could actually sleep at night with the a/c on. $2800 installed.

[Fixin2Drive]

The leading benefit of the 58V Volta compatible AC units is the ability to run them without the inverter, and for significantly longer than a comparable 120 Volt unit through an inverter."

The IBIS4 and other air conditioners with a variable speed compressor (not to be confused with variable speed circulation fan) has a compressor called an "Inverter Compressor". The circuit board in the unit generates a sine wave with a frequency and voltage that can run at any speed. The compressors on all the AC units I've seen until this have motors that run at one speed at one voltage. Some may run at 50 or 60Hz.

From Wikipedia: "Inverter compressor uses an external variable-frequency drive - to control the speed of the compressor. The refrigerant flow rate is changed by the change in the speed of compressor. The turndown ratio depends on the system configuration and manufacturer. It modulates from 15 or 25% up to 100% at full capacity with a single inverter

Typically a circuit board uses a 2-step process to supply power to the compressor. First step is to convert the AC voltage into DC and store it in capacitors. Second - the computer on the circuit board will command some transistor type solid state circuitry to generate a sine wave to drive the compressor at a desired speed.

The first step AC to DC conversion process should not be necessary if the air conditioning unit can be hooked up to high enough voltage DC. Maybe Volta's 51.5 nominal voltage will do it. Good on ARV for trying!

Trying not to get over techie on this but this seems to be a pretty technical discussion.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

ALEX - since you also mentioned the Volta system I wanted to share this information I recently received from Volta regarding A/C options.

"Advanced RV has the new “Quiet Roof Air Conditioner” which is worth considering, as well as 2 separate emerging 58V Volta-Compatible roof AC units.
Q
One of these units will be at Volta very soon for proof of compatibility and ratings review, but we feel strongly that it will be a great solution.

The leading benefit of the 58V Volta compatible AC units is the ability to run them without the inverter, and for significantly longer than a comparable 120 Volt unit through an inverter."

Stay tuned for more information as Volta brings a compatible A/C to market, eliminitating the need for a 3000 watt inverter.

MIKE - WOW! Even if someone is already decided on getting the ARV 120v Quiet A/C to run inverted on Volta, news like this IMHO is worth waiting for it's release. Having more options to consider is better, no matter the final decision. The hurdle I envision with A/C Direct to DC Volta is with the doubling of current draw, i.e. need to upsize wiring to the roof. I don't know how hard that would be with regards to the disassembly work to get the beefier wiring up there. I have the 2 giant ceiling stainless steel panels that I can replace at my discretion. That's a project I am not looking forward to nor have decided to even do. So, if I ever do replace them, probably run the appropriate heavier gauge wiring up there at same time.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by wachuko

Why just not call them and find out. The times I have reached out to them, both via email and phone, they have been very responsive. ...

I did, repeatedly.

That you were able to get fast response whereas I was not might have something to do with the fact that you haven't published electrical engineering designs that look like my husband's.

I'm not saying ARV did this because I have zero knowledge of their motivations, but I will say that we routinely get ghosted. Vendors see us as possible emerging competitors rather than customers. They think we are trolling for information that we are going to use to mount a market strategy and build us some butt-kickin' custom vans. I can't tell you how many times I've had a technical discussion in progress only to suddenly be met with... CRICKETS.

Which in this case, we are not. I can neither design nor import nor install my own roof air conditioner. In a perfect world, I'd like to be somebody's customer in that regard.

[wachuko]

Originally Posted by InterBlog

I did, repeatedly...

That is good to know. Mine were inquiries around availability and pricing at first. Then on construction (around that time they came out with the video on the internals). This was when you raised the comment on this; then confirmation around not being able to use it while on the move (this is when I started to look harder for alternatives as I would prefer to have the option to turn it on while on the move), and recently on how it compares to the Coleman (which is the recent video that was put out).

My questions have not been deeper than that...

Install seems to be simple. I still have a question to ask them on integration to the FireFly system... but keep forgetting to send them a email on it. Need to find out if it will integrate to it or if it will be a stand alone install.

Then there is the issue of cost. It is around US$3,200.00 installed (with the color matched cover)... with the Coleman (which I have not been able to find pricing for it) I am guessing at around 800.00-1,000.00 and I would have to paint the cover myself and do the install. But this one would work while on the move... and would still be a significant drop on the noise level from what we have now...

Anywho... still have time to think about this. Will not be changing it until next year...