On trip - need help with key/ignition issue

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by AirstreamGT

If they fix it properly, I'll just sell it thru Ebay or whatever is the best method. I'm just going to have to really make sure all the issues are fixed, so I'm not passing along a problem to some other unexpected buyer.

AIRSTREAMGT - Very principled & upstanding of you to think of not passing on-going problems to the next buyer. As JMORGAN said a few posts down, it's a bear of a problem that's hard to track. I still have confidence it will get fixed (eventually). Best of luck.

[gator.bigfoot]

The only way I got my vehicle fixed was for them to swap the modules with one on their lot. Ordering new ones and updating the firmware didn't work. They had the vehicle in for a month the first time and they gave up. They gave me the used modules. Then after my trip they asked for the vehicle back and they had it for 2 months. Still weren't able to get it to work with the new modules. They had all the engineers from MB to Bosch involved. In the end I got the used modules and haven't had that issue since. I hope I never will. No one is able to fix it.

If you never have an issue count your blessings.

[tallytwo1994]

Originally Posted by AirstreamGT

Alex-AVI: thanks again for the advice. I'm going to take it in and let them have it indefinitely until they tell me everything is fixed.

Hope you will return to this thread with an update when they return the vehicle. I can’t imagine the stress of a cross country trip with two small children and such problems. Hope you and your family will be able to experience much better camping in the future, regardless of the vehicle you use.
Carol

[Moodywelman]

As I stopped for fuel on the way home from having my solar system worked on I experienced the same problem. Fortunately, I had watched the people working on my electrical systems and saw phone of them unplug the engine power above the accelerator so, before calling for a tow, I checked it and, sure enough, the plugin was laying on the floor. The g had not locked the plug in and it fell out while on the road. Plugged. In and, viola, provblem solved and an expensive repair bill avoided.

[AirstreamGT]

Checking the main ground near the accelerator pedal was something that we have looked at many times in my case. Wish it was that simple. RV is at Mercedes service, getting a lot of attention. They are updating me daily on the status, per corporate request. Nothing found yet.

[AirstreamGT]

Update: Mercedes called and they believe that my wireless cell phone charger was interfering with the ignition system. They say it has happened before, although I cannot find anything on the internet. If this is the issue, and the ignition system has had issues when my phone was not in the charger, then the interference would likely be fed through the cable into the 12v charger its hooked up to. As far as I know, when there is no phone on the charger, the coils are inactive, and wouldn't be generating a e-field. I'm a mech engineer, so maybe one of the electrical techies can weigh on on this. I also called the company, Mophie, and they didn't feel that it was possible that the radiation field from the charging coils could be reaching any RF chips in the ignition system.

[Titus]

An easy fix if that is in fact the problem. I too am a ME and would not hazard a guess about EE stuff - its all magic to me.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by AirstreamGT

Update: Mercedes called and they believe that my wireless cell phone charger was interfering with the ignition system. They say it has happened before, although I cannot find anything on the internet. If this is the issue, and the ignition system has had issues when my phone was not in the charger, then the interference would likely be fed through the cable into the 12v charger its hooked up to. As far as I know, when there is no phone on the charger, the coils are inactive, and wouldn't be generating a e-field. I'm a mech engineer, so maybe one of the electrical techies can weigh on on this. I also called the company, Mophie, and they didn't feel that it was possible that the radiation field from the charging coils could be reaching any RF chips in the ignition system.

AIRSTREAMGT - there is a lot to unpack here, so let's try to think this through 1 piece at a time. First, some background, I graduated an EE and got my Comp. Science & Electronics Engineering degree right after.

In the early 80's when Motorola made the 1st cell phone (big handset on dash, huge 3Watt transceiver in trunk, dual glass antennas), our HP team of engineers in Chicago was the group that Beta tested their phones prior to them being sold as consumer devices years later. I had a cell phone in my company car before the president of HP got one years later. We felt important (me and a handful of field engineers, criteria being we were the ones travelling & logging lots of miles, had nothing to do with our capability as engineers). . And we were important, because we provided data for the building blocks of cell communication all over the world. HP was the largest computer vendor for Motorola's computing needs and so we received certain perks/benefits of that symbiotic relationship. That particular technology at it's infancy could've created such interference that MB is alluding to. That was almost 40 yrs. ago.

Fast forward to now, wireless technology be it cellular, RF, BT, satellite, IR, etc. etc. etc. is by the nature of the beast ALWAYS going to be susceptible to outside interference, temp, humidity, sunspots, altitude, time of day. Many factors come into play, just ask any ham radio expert (I am not one) and they can explain better why during certain seasons and time of day, their signals propagate halfway around the world. Some seasons, they could barely reach Canada.

So knowing that any wireless signal is ALWAYS susceptible to interference, the question becomes is it likely in your scenario? Wireless charging by nature is very directional and it's signal amplitude is very limited. So limited that your phone literally almost has to touch the wireless charger base for it to work. Is it really wireless charging if your phone has to touch the base, but that's a discussion for another time. If your phone is even a few mm off-center of that concentrated EMF signal, you wireless charging stops. I can't even do wireless charging with my minimalist Otterbox Commuter case (not the heavy duty Defender case which is much thicker and heavily padded). For it to work, I have to remove the thin case.

So what are the chances that your wireless charger is causing the interference? Very slim. They are grasping at straws. Don't get me wrong, they have to and need to and I would do the same if in their shoes. They have to eliminate every possible cause of nearby interference. Why, because they can only guarantee their product to work within the parameters & standards they have built it to. We have dealt with this many times in the computer world, whereby computers have gotten zapped by the static electricity generated by workers or from microwave antenna nearby. Put it simply, no vehicle manufacturer can guarantee that their systems will function faced with a strong RF jammer in the vicinity; yes extreme example, but you get the point.

So the next question is if that is what they suspect, what is the action plan? The easiest and most obvious is remove the source of EMF and test for awhile. However, that is just grade-school troubleshooting for their caliber of engineers and resource they have at their disposal. If they are confident of this hypothesis, they need to show you empirical data proving their case. At a bare minimum - show you results from an EM meter their readings, preferably from one that detects all three types of EMF pollution: AC magnetic (min or better 40 Hz – 100 kHz with range of 0.1 – 100.0 milligauss (mG)), AC electric (min or better 40 Hz – 100 kHz with range of 1 – 1000 volts per meter (V/m)), and RF/microwave (min or better 20 MHz – 6 GHz with range of 0.001 – 19.999 milliwatts per square meter (mW/m2)). Have readings from a known non-failing unit, then yours with the wireless charger, and yours with wireless charger removed. Better yet, rather than just instantaneous readings, they should be able to capture & data-log the interference to clearly show the point it appears and the point it disappears. The cause & effect relationship of these 2 (the EM radiator & EM receptor i.e. the ignition RF chip) should not be hard to establish, if given your anecdotal data of approx. 20 min. reset-duration holds true through testing. If this is a repeatable data-point, then either the Morphie is resetting every 20mins. or the MB RF chips are on a 20min. rolling code algorithm. Not sure if either is capable or doing such.

If it turns out your wireless charger was generating outside interference, the Morphie manufacturer could be in a big hurt because the range of their units should not reach that far. They know that, which is why the response they gave is the standard canned response. I would take them to task with a complaint to the FCC if MB can establish that Morphie was at fault.

Per FCC - "Wireless battery chargers and wireless power pads operating at frequencies above 9 kHz are intentional radiators and are subject to either Part 15 and/or Part 18 of the FCC rules." You can pull up both Parts and clearly spells out all the parameters they have to satisfy.

Should be enough for now. Hoping this brings you closer to resolution.

EDIT: Just to add - YES, interference does not necessarily mean just the wireless variety. It could propagate via the +12v wiring of the charger itself. I know this for a fact - case in point - my house has a Home Automation System. It uses decades old protocols called X10 that was state of the art in the late 90's when we built the house. But it is susceptible to switching power supply technology (same used by wireless chargers and cheapo electronics like tv's, etc). So it gets really "buggy" if those "noisy" devices are not properly filtered and the signal not properly amplified via repeaters on a big house.

[Alex AVI]

From MOPHIE Wireless Charger Support docs, they seem to have covered their bases well.

"This device complies with part 15 of the FCC Rules and RSS-Gen of IC Rules. Operation is subject to the following two conditions:

(1) This device may not cause harmful interference, and
(2) this device must accept any interference received, including interference that may cause undesired operation.

NOTE: This equipment has been tested and found to comply with the limits for a Class B digital device, pursuant to part 15 of the FCC Rules. These limits are designed to provide reasonable protection against harmful interference in a residential installation. This equipment generates, uses, and can radiate radio frequency energy and, if not installed and used in accordance with the instructions, may cause harmful interference to radio communications. However, there is no guarantee that interference will not occur in a particular installation.

If this equipment does cause harmful interference to radio or television reception, which can be determined by turning the equipment off and on, the user is encouraged to try to correct the interference by one or more of the following measures:
• Reorient or relocate the receiving antenna.
• Increase the separation between the equipment and receiver.
• Connect the equipment into an outlet on a circuit different from that to which the receiver is connected.
• Consult the dealer or an experienced technician for help. <<<<

CAUTION: To comply with the limits of the Class B digital device, pursuant to Part 15 of the FCC Rules, this device must be used with certified peripherals and shielded cables. All peripherals must be shielded and grounded. Operation with non-certified peripherals or non-shielded cables may result in interference to radio or reception.

MODIFICATION: Any changes or modifications of this device could void the warranty."

Let me summarize in 1 sentence - if this don't work or causes problems with nearby RF devices, don't use near those RF devices.

[AirstreamGT]

Thanks for the insight, Alex AVI. I found an interesting article floating around the internet about the Apple Pencil causing interference with key fobs while charging, which apple has acknowledged. https://gizmodo.com/heres-the-weirde...-of-1834076908

I'm thinking of buying this EMF meter unless anyone has a better solution under $200. https://www.amazon.com/TriField-EMF-...s%2C192&sr=8-3

I need to wrap my head around a few things before I can consider this to be the smoking gun:

1) The ignition is at least 6" away (I need to measure) from the wireless charger. E-field drops off exponentially with distance, which is why your phone needs to be touching in the perfect spot for it to even think about charging. The e-field at the ignition should be very low, if the charger meets the FCC requirements they say they meet.

2) The ignition system has problems when my phone isn't in the charger. Why would this happen? Is this Mophie wireless charger emitting a radiation environment strong enough to knock out the key fob while it's just sitting there? I would expect that its putting a constant draw on the chassis battery then (albeit a small one). Does the key transmitter get tamped down and have a 5-10 minute reset before it starts broadcasting again properly?

3) Why is it so random? My RV was at 3 different Mercedes dealerships for a total of 6 days and they couldn't replicate the issue, but the wireless charger was there the whole time. I doubt anyone charged their phones on it though, during that time.

4) Why am I the only unlucky soul on the world that this has happened to? There surely should be some other people turning up issues with wireless charging in their cars, turning them into 6000lbs of useless steel (in my case, 10,000lbs)? Vent mount wireless chargers are pretty common place.

[Boxster1971]

I think buying an EMF meter will just add to confusion. After working with Electromagnetic Interference (EMI) issues for over 20 years my view is solving problems like this "black magic". Simple solution is to remove the wireless charger and see if problem disappears. If it does then problem solved.

Edit addition - that Morphie wireless charger emits when phone is not on charger. In fact the field might even be larger without a phone on the charger.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

I think buying an EMF meter will just add to confusion. After working with Electromagnetic Interference (EMI) issues for over 20 years my view is solving problems like this "black magic". Simple solution is to remove the wireless charger and see if problem disappears. If it does then problem solved.

Edit addition - that Morphie wireless charger emits when phone is not on charger. In fact the field might even be larger without a phone on the charger.

MIKE - "black magic" - my sentiments exactly. However, I prefer to use a highly technical term - "glitch" There are situations where one gets lucky and ends up with a unit that performs much better than expected as compared to the field at large (i.e. my completely unlocked Fusion). But then one gets lucky and ends up with a unit that under-performs compared to units at large (i.e. my Magnum inverter or AIRSTREAMGT's Mophie or keyfob RF). Sometimes, it's just luck of the draw.

AIRSTREAMGT - as a consumer, the EMF meter is not worth the expense. For the MB or Mophie engineer trying to track down the problem to quantify & log data is a different story. As MIKE said, IF removing the wireless charger solves the problem, I would consider it solved and walk away. IF this is the cause of all the headaches, just thank your lucky stars that MB & AS is not going to try and claw-back all the time they spent troubleshooting.

You bring up (4) good questions. Without being there to test myself, there are still way too many variables to come up with simple answers. The issue is not whether millions of other drivers doing wireless charging in their cars is not having problems. The issue is your particular configuration, along with all the other variables unique to your environment & usage, along with possibly a combination of your MB having an overly sensitive or not ideally shielded MB RF system, along with possibly getting a Mophie that is generating a much stronger signal than it should, etc. etc. You can see, the permutations & combinations could go on & on.

It is a fascinating exercise for a techie to see to it's conclusion but not worth a consumer's time. I am sure if MB & Mophie sees it to their benefit to pursue those (4) questions, they will. But barring a repeat of the problems after you disconnected the Mophie, I pretty sure they will consider it solved.

[Titus]

Only good place that I have for the wireless charge pad is on the floor, using the outlet on the driver seat pedestal. But now I'm afraid to try it. Long ways from the ignition stuff in the dashboard, but not far from whatever sensitive stuff that might be under the drivers seat. Wouldn't want to set off an airbag.

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Titus

Only good place that I have for the wireless charge pad is on the floor, using the outlet on the driver seat pedestal. But now I'm afraid to try it. Long ways from the ignition stuff in the dashboard, but not far from whatever sensitive stuff that might be under the drivers seat. Wouldn't want to set off an airbag.

TITUS - I am not trying to make light of AIRSTREAMGT issue. But FWIW - as a techie, I love everything high-tech, so daughter got me a 2-pack of the Samsung wireless charger. Surprisingly, 1 sits unused & unplugged on my nightstand, the other still in original box. I can not rationalize why I have not used it. My sub-conscious just never liked it. I was going to put one in AI but with the clouds surrounding this situation, I am not risking it.

[Alex AVI]

AIRSTREAMGT - Have not heard from you lately, so hopefully the simple fix of eliminating your MOPHIE wireless charger did the trick.

Some techie-wonky stuff below if you care to read more. Long-story short, I did some research and dug up US Patent docs 9,184,598 B2 which has to do with vehicle key fobs. Snipet of the most notable info I saw is below:

Signal discrimination for wireless key fobs and interacting systems
: : : : : : : : : : : : : : :
"A potential problem with introducing a wireless charging system 110 into an automotive environment is that the electromagnetic energy emitted by the wireless charging system 110 to transfer power to the receiving device 120 can also interfere with the operation of critical systems in the vehicle 100 such as the keyless remote entry system or ignition system described above."


Link to full 18-page US Patent 9,184,598 B2 below:
https://patentimages.storage.googlea.../US9184598.pdf

[Osteomeatl]

I had similar intermittent and random failure to start problems that occurred after stopping then trying to restart just as you describe. After waiting 10 to 20 minutes the AI would start. Had a video and MB dealer was able to replicate after multiple attempts. They checked everything and after having it for a week found it was a defective shift lockout solenoid on the transmission conductor plate. This was almost a year ago and have had no further issues

[Alex AVI]

Originally Posted by Osteomeatl

I had similar intermittent and random failure to start problems that occurred after stopping then trying to restart just as you describe. After waiting 10 to 20 minutes the AI would start. Had a video and MB dealer was able to replicate after multiple attempts. They checked everything and after having it for a week found it was a defective shift lockout solenoid on the transmission conductor plate. This was almost a year ago and have had no further issues

OSTEOMEATL - you know that is good point. That's happened to me before in our Chrysler Town & Country. And also the actual tranny coupling to the shifter developed some play, so when placed in Park, the tranny may actually be in gear thus preventing a restart. But that's so basic, one would think many weeks of MB ace troubleshooter would have already eliminated those things.

However, part of the original problem was the instrumentation lights would not even come on. AFAIK, the shift lockout can not or does not disable the instrumentation. It is only a safety mechanism that keeps the driver from shifting out of park when the brake pedal is not pressed down. It will prevent the start but can't disable instrumentation.

[AirstreamGT]

Hey guys, apparently removal of the Mophie charger resolved my particular issue. I haven't really used the RV since then, but I have started it multiple times and moved it around and haven't run into any problems with the ignition. Crazy that it took 4 Mercedes dealerships and over a week in the shop to resolve, but I'm actually glad it was an easy resolution.

[J. Morgan]

It's funny how sometimes things aren't always as they seem.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by AirstreamGT

Hey guys, apparently removal of the Mophie charger resolved my particular issue. I haven't really used the RV since then, but I have started it multiple times and moved it around and haven't run into any problems with the ignition. Crazy that it took 4 Mercedes dealerships and over a week in the shop to resolve, but I'm actually glad it was an easy resolution.

Thanks for the follow-up. It's always informative to learn how a problem was solved.