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Old 08-15-2018, 05:55 PM   #41
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First MB FSS reset to 10k miles, not 20k.
In cars it usually gives 13k intervals, but computer has a program that determinate when to change the oil depends on use, is in big unit that can come much shorter.
New diesel oil turns black as soon as you start engine with it and its been like that for more than 100 years.
Lastly, you did not say what model of MB you have, but newer engine with AddBlue system require 229.53 classification.
If you screw it, the DPF replacement is well over $4,000.
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevol...ets-sort1.html
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:07 PM   #42
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Lastly, you did not say what model of MB you have, but newer engine with AddBlue system require 229.53 classification.
If you screw it, the DPF replacement is well over $4,000.
https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevol...ets-sort1.html
KAJTEK1 - what is 229.53 ? My docs up to 2018 model years only show 229.52 as the latest MB oil standards which supposedly has lowest SPash levels that would be the recommendation for my 2017 Sprinter
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:26 PM   #43
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I had my first oil analysis done by Blackstone when the vehicle (and oil) had about 17,500 miles. They noticed quite a bit of metal and silicon in the oil, but said it wasn't surprising given that it was factory oil. They recommended changing again after an additional 10-15k miles to flush out the metals and silicon. I changed it after about 12k (roughly 30k vehicle miles) and had Blackstone do another analysis. They felt that much of the break-in gunk had been flushed, but some metals remained and they recommended changing again after about a 14k interval. I think if I were doing it all over again, I would change at 10k vehicle miles and 20k vehicle miles, then start stretching out closer to 20k intervals. I had a TBN done with both tests, and there was plenty of life left (TBNs of 3.6 and 3.8).
Like many of you have implied, a 20k interval seems a bit crazy. Part of me wants to settle on a 10k-15k interval. I'm looking forward to the debate on here.
FWIW, I'm running Lubri Moly 4605 5w-30 (229.52). I haven't found compliant Mobil 1 in 5Q/5L containers to facilitate recycling the old oil!
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Old 08-16-2018, 06:47 PM   #44
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Like many of you have implied, a 20k interval seems a bit crazy. Part of me wants to settle on a 10k-15k interval. I'm looking forward to the debate on here.
FWIW, I'm running Lubri Moly 4605 5w-30 (229.52). I haven't found compliant Mobil 1 in 5Q/5L containers to facilitate recycling the old oil!
CHAPARRAL- Nice to hear your experience with Blackstone is good also. I am in no way endorsing that the analysis is worth the money, especially when one is inclined to be over cautious with the intervals anyway, as I am. But rather just stating my good experience with them too.
Where do you get your Moly? Are you able to get in 5Q/L ? I have same problem. Getting 13 individual Q/L seems a big waste of materials, not to mention PITA. I even asked Wally World if I can get the big containers they use in their garages, but no luck. I had to get 3 cases of 6-pack from MB dealer. It is obvious they can source bulk oil, as I never see any single Q/L bottles in the shop, but I think they are not willing to share the source. I would probably switch to the 1st MB 229.52 compliant oil that comes in 5Q/L container.

Edit - how did you settle on which one to get (4605) since they have 6 versions of 5W-30 that are all 229.52 compliant?
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:45 AM   #45
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Old adage of my father - Oil is still cheaper than main bearing.

Several of the local MB dealers are owned by Penske. They use private Penske label oil. They only have a vested interest in the engine lasting 50,001 miles of the 50,000 mile warranty. They make their real money in the service (using it in the farm vocabulary of the stallion serviced the mare) department.

I believe in the 5K oil change interval which was half of the 10K in the owner's manual. I go out of my way to avoid any hint of bio-diesel and will not drive in states where that is the only choice. I avoid the big 3 truck stops as they are serving up to 20% bio-diesel both in front and in back with the big rigs.

There are a lot of small town diesel shops making good earnings fixing the contaminated fuel systems on the big trucks.....

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Old 08-17-2018, 08:50 AM   #46
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Doubling the frequency of oil changes means doing 100% more changes. Sure oil is relatively cheap, but it is also a finite resource. Wasting it doesn’t make sense to me.

Do those using these safety factors on oil change frequency also apply that extreme safety factor to other manufacturer’s recommendations? Payload, for example?

I had to think hard to remember the last time I saw a spun main bearing. It was three decades ago, in an F350 that was used in very dusty conditions, without functional intake air filtration. Cost the customer an engine.

When I bought a BMW in the 90’s it came with what I considered long oil change interval recommendations. I watched the oil condition carefully, over several changes, and it stood up fine. My caution was based on having been brought up in an independent shop doing 5000 km/3000 mile oil changes. I worked up to the full 24,000 km intervals and used those with my next 5 BMW vehicles over the ensuing 20 years. Never had an issue, whether a spun main bearing, or increased oil consumption between scheduled changes.

Agree oil is cheaper than an engine. And brakes are cheaper than transmissions, but we still gear down on long hills.
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Old 08-17-2018, 03:12 PM   #47
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Doubling the frequency of oil changes means doing 100% more changes. Sure oil is relatively cheap, but it is also a finite resource. Wasting it doesn’t make sense to me.
JCL - While I am part of the camp of folks who choose to do oil changes more frequently, I agree with your 1st sentence. But only partly agree with the 3rd sentences above. Wasting it does not make sense to some, but others do not consider it wasted. They consider it cheap insurance. I also agree with the first half of your 2nd sentence. But I am completely baffled with the part "but it is also a finite resource". The whole discussion centers around full synthetic motor oils and I thought full synthetics are just that, fully synthesized from materials other than crude oil. I do not have the extensive oil experience/knowledge you have from your field work. So my info is strictly what I read from manufacturers like Mobil1, MB, etc. My question - is the "finite resource" you refer to still petroleum based or crude oil products that are part of full synthetic oils? In other words is full synthethic not really full synthetic? If that is the case, how can they get away with calling it full synthetic?
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Old 08-17-2018, 06:58 PM   #48
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Well Alex, you have me scratching my head. I don't know how I picked Liqui Moly 4605 over the other Liqui Moly variants. I know I would have analyzed the variants to death until I decided on one, but somehow I didn't know there were others available. But they're in plain sight on the MB list. Guess I know what I'm doing this weekend. Gee thanks! A quick look at the Liqui-Moly website didn't reveal any comparison guides. The reason for picking Liqui Moly at all was on the insistence of a passionate, opinionated, hard headed, experienced German independent mechanic. How's that for scientific analysis?

I buy mine from AutohausAZ in 5L containers. I have seen it on Amazon with Prime shipping for a few dollars more. I agree that filling 13 tiny bottles can get tedious and extremely messy.
Let's see what other potentially contentious topics I can touch on besides oil change intervals and oil brands: hmm...religion, politics, oh...yeah, oil extractor vs. draining out through the oil plug. I use an extractor for low-to-the-ground cars, but I use the drain and crawl around under the Sprinter just so I can inspect stuff.



Switz: Nice fleet you have there! That's interesting about some dealerships using Penske-branded oil. That's scary. And like you, we avoid the 20% biodiesel. I believe Michigan was one of the states where it was difficult but not impossible to stay in the 5-10% range.
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Old 08-17-2018, 07:40 PM   #49
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A quick look at the website didn't reveal any comparison guides. The reason for picking Liqui Moly at all was on the insistence of a passionate, opinionated, hard headed, experienced German independent mechanic. How's that for scientific analysis?

I buy mine from AutohausAZ in 5L containers. I have seen it on Amazon with Prime shipping for a few dollars more. I agree that filling 13 tiny bottles can get tedious and extremely messy.
CHAPARRAL - yeah, me too, I did go to their website and found no easy way to figure out which one is best suited for our Sprinters. But I was starting to read each of the 6 detailed specs and maybe it's the only way to decide. But in any event, they are all MB 229.52 compliant in 5W-30, then we can't go wrong. I order lots from AutoHaus, did not dawn on me to check. Thanks for reminder I know I may get a lot of flack from others here for using container size as a criteria for choosing which oil to buy, but I will ditch the MB dealer and Mobil1 single bottles in favor of Moly 4605 or any others that come in 5L containers. My feeling is if they are on the list & approved by MB, they are good enough for me.
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Old 08-17-2018, 08:19 PM   #50
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I have the 3.0 diesel built by VM Motori an Italian Co and sold through Ram. Ram recommends 10k oil change interval (OCI) and the filter is rated to 10k. On a side note when I changed the engine tune to include turning off the EGR my oil went from getting dark by 4k to about 8k. Anyway so I did the 10k OCI for the first 100k per warranty and have always used a Ram recommended full synthetic.(a 10.5 quart system) After the 100k miles I started checking it with Blackstone labs. Due in part to my duty cycle of long miles towing moderate loads my oil wear metals and remaining additives were always stellar and showed no diesel contamination. To my understanding full synthetics don't wear out hear they only get contaminated and or use up the additives.

Blackstone said no reason you couldn't go to a longer OCI. So I did first 12.5k then 15. I liked the 15k OCI it worked well for me and made it easy to keep track of and the fuel filter change which was 30k. So every other oil change was also a fuel filter change. Blackstone results were excellent and they said I could try a longer OCI but I chose not to. All is well but one change I had a collapsed filter. Thought it was probably fluke as I had done several with no issue. Mechanic motor builder friend said no worries its not that uncommon. Much later (maybe 100k) at 371k with coolant loss issues and a failed water pump she pushed out a head gasket. At that time I had a second collapsed filter. Upon talking to another friend who had been a Ram corporate engineer and diesel engine programmer he said duh the oil is fine but you still have to change the filters. In the mean time I've been back on the 10k OCI but will switch back to a 15k OCI but with a filter swap ever 7,500. Coincidentally this will be just before the oil starts to turn dark. Doubt that it will make any difference in keeping it clear longer as the discoloration is likely due to other things but looking forward to finding out.

Now to come full circle. I used to drive semi for Ryder Truck who does all their own maintenance. I though they were crazy when they switched from an in my mind crazy long OCI of 30k to 50k! But they have stuck with it now for several years so it must be working. I don't know about the filter change interval. Mercedes doesn't do anything hastily. I suspect the 20k OCI is more than sufficient. But I dang sure would change that filter by 10k.

Oh and ditto on avoiding bile diesel. I skip fueling in those states when possible.
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Old 08-17-2018, 11:26 PM   #51
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CHAPARRAL - Hopefully this saves you some research time. I did a manual comparison from Liqui Moly site using their Vehicle/Model/Product filters to only Sprinter 3.0 TD and their recommendation oils came up with 10 products. But out of those 10, ONLY 2 had MB approval as 229.52 compliant in 5W-30, the TopTec 4600 and 4605. They have a new generation line called Molygen but even though they recommend this also, it has not gotten the approval yet from MB. I could not find the others that were in the MB/Bevo list within the Liqui Moly site, so I assume those variants were superseded by the TopTec 4600/4605. I can only guess that if the Molygen line ever gets MB approval, then it would replace the 4600/4605. So however you got to choosing 4605 turns out that is still their current offering in MB approved 229.52 compliant oil. It would be interesting to follow the Molygen line and see how long it takes to get the MB seal of approval.
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Old 08-17-2018, 11:36 PM   #52
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I would not exceed 5K on any oil especially on an RV pulling constant load and temps.
I purchased a new MB320 passenger car sometime back and they recommended 10K on oil changes. I'm not an engineer but rather an auto tech and working on them for 40yrs I know what oil does. I changed my 320's oil every 5K worked well for me....and yes it was a full synthetic...Oil Cheap...Engine$ not so....
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Old 08-17-2018, 11:55 PM   #53
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JCL - While I am part of the camp of folks who choose to do oil changes more frequently, I agree with your 1st sentence. But only partly agree with the 3rd sentences above. Wasting it does not make sense to some, but others do not consider it wasted. They consider it cheap insurance. I also agree with the first half of your 2nd sentence. But I am completely baffled with the part "but it is also a finite resource". The whole discussion centers around full synthetic motor oils and I thought full synthetics are just that, fully synthesized from materials other than crude oil. I do not have the extensive oil experience/knowledge you have from your field work. So my info is strictly what I read from manufacturers like Mobil1, MB, etc. My question - is the "finite resource" you refer to still petroleum based or crude oil products that are part of full synthetic oils? In other words is full synthethic not really full synthetic? If that is the case, how can they get away with calling it full synthetic?
In response to your question, yes. And if you are relying on marketing literature from the oil manufacturers, it is tough to figure out a true story.

Couple of things here.

1) Synthetic in the name of the oil refers to the process by which it is made. Crude oil stock that is synthesized (hydrocracked) instead of standard refining is considered synthetic. So, many "synthetic" oils are simply refined differently. Synthetic is a marketing term, not a technical term. Castrol and Mobil had an argument about this 20 years ago in the US, Castrol won the debate, and since then Group III oils (mineral oil base stocks) have been called synthetics. Group IV oils are considered "full synthetics" by some, and Mobil was using them in their blends to that point, but they are more expensive to make, so they switched to blending some in to hydrocracked mineral oils. The end produce is still called synthetic. It doesn't matter much IMO, what matters is the oil's performance. And if you want to consider Group IV oils as more "synthetic" then consider where the base stocks come from to make them, they aren't made out of water. Mobil 1 states that they make both types of oil (synthetic and non-synthetic) from crude oil base stocks, only the process differs.

2) In terms of maintenance regimes, it is worth considering four increasing levels of sophistication (or five, if you count diagnostic maintenance). First is no maintenance. Run it till it drops, then throw it away. Next is corrective maintenance. Run it till it breaks, then fix it and run it some more. Next is preventative maintenance, often on a fixed schedule of hours or km/miles. It is cheaper in the long run than waiting till it breaks. But in the '90's maintenance began to move towards predictive maintenance instead of simply preventative. It lowers the total cost of ownership (TOC). It is more sophisticated. And it doesn't mean changing the oil at a fixed km or mile interval. Manufacturers began to incorporate sensors that actually monitored the oil (in the early 2000's) They measure additive depletion, which is pretty much what some are doing at oil sampling labs when they look at TBN, figuring our if the oil is standing up. They also monitor vehicle usage patterns, usually adjusting the base change interval up or down based on litres of fuel consumed, number of short trips, etc. It is possible to ignore all of this and go back to what we used to do in the '60s and '70s, and later, with 3000 or 5000 mile oil change intervals. But that is a pretty big step backwards. It would be like installing a manual choke, or a carburettor. I shouldn't talk, since I do drive a manual transmission, lol. Anyway, selecting a fixed interval is ignoring all of the advances made in the years since.

I am not against regular oil changes. I have done them all my life, for my own and customer equipment. When my on board computer stretches the 24,000 km oil change interval to 28,000 km because of my driving habits and usage pattern (few short trips, always get it properly warmed up, no idling), I still tend to change it early. For me, that means closer to 20,000 or 22,000, because I also watch the time interval and I don't want to collapse a filter. But changing it three or four times in that interval is, in my opinion, throwing money away. My decision to run close to manufacturer's recommended intervals isn't based on a hope and a prayer, it is because the manufacturer's intervals have worked well, because I have on board monitoring, because I am very aware of how I use my vehicle, and I want to get the lowest TCO, without adding undue risk. I don't need the "insurance" of far more frequent oil changes, which ignores the added risk of more frequent interventions, and the environmental cost. Also, used engine oil lubricates better than new oil, to a point (lots of studies available), so constantly putting in new oil doesn't help in that respect. If you want to service it more frequently, change the filter.

If you are interested in equipment maintenance models, and exploring some myths about maintenance, it is well worth reading the attachment below. I saved it from 2000, although it is dated 1995, and I should point out that the sources it is referencing go back years before that. This stuff isn't new. That just shows how ingrained old habits are, much of it due to the consumer oil change industry (which I worked in).

Jeff
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Old 08-18-2018, 02:27 AM   #54
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In response to your question, yes. And if you are relying on marketing literature from the oil manufacturers, it is tough to figure out a true story.

That just shows how ingrained old habits are, much of it due to the consumer oil change industry (which I worked in).

Jeff
JCL - Thank you for providing this good info. Your point #1 is an eye-opener. While I have read info on the different groups III, IV, V, semi, etc. the stuff is almost mind-boggling to figure out unless one is in the industry. I am an electrical & computer engineer, accustomed to reading highly technical data. But I am not a chemical engineer, so all that data flies over my head. It is disappointing to know that even a Castrol (or Mobil or other) bottle labeled Full Synthetic is really still only base crude oil altered/synthesized "enough" to qualify as Full Synthetic. My big take away here is all oil still come from crude oil base stock.

I follow you on the predictive maintenance vs. preventive maintenance. The industry I am in has also switched to that by using different sensors to predict when the next field engineer visit needs to be scheduled. And good recommendation on replacing filter, if insistent on servicing more frequently.

To your last point - yes, old habits are truly ingrained. When I got my first car, manufacturers (not just the oil change industry) was always hammering on consumers heads that oils needed to be changed at X-miles or Y- months. And now with the advent of much better "Full Synthetic" oils, they are trying to reverse all those decades of change interval practices that they were mostly responsible for getting universal implementation. And if they can't even fully disclose to consumers that "Full Synthetic" is still really just from crude oil base stock, how can they expect consumers to trust them now? I am sure that irony is not lost on you either.

Funny role reversal irony, below?

1978 - my first new car, experience with dealer.
Pontiac service rep. - "Alex, you are way overdue on your oil change. Oil is cheap. Your T/A is $7,500."
Alex - "Sorry, I wanted to stretch out the budget a little longer."

2018 - my most expensive vehicle purchase to date, experience with dealer.
MB service rep. - "Sorry, Alex, you are not due for an oil change. You can stretch it out a little longer"
Alex - "You are overlong on your oil change interval. Oil is cheap. My AI is $150,000."

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Old 08-18-2018, 10:55 AM   #55
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JCL - Thank you for providing this good info. Your point #1 is an eye-opener. While I have read info on the different groups III, IV, V, semi, etc. the stuff is almost mind-boggling to figure out unless one is in the industry. I am an electrical & computer engineer, accustomed to reading highly technical data. But I am not a chemical engineer, so all that data flies over my head. It is disappointing to know that even a Castrol (or Mobil or other) bottle labeled Full Synthetic is really still only base crude oil altered/synthesized "enough" to qualify as Full Synthetic. My big take away here is all oil still come from crude oil base stock.
I don’t find it disappointing, but that is because SAE and API, two certifications that matter, don’t use the word “synthetic” and haven’t for years. The word has no significance in terms of oil quality or performance. And “full synthetic”, “synthetic blend”, and “synthetic technology” therefore mean even less.

What I find disappointing is that some oil companies choose not to actually do any specific certification process, and instead use the phrase “recommended for applications that call for certification xxxx....”. This means that they couldn’t be bothered. It means they want you to just trust them. It means that if they are short of one ingredient in the blend, they can change the formula without telling you. Instead of spending money on certifications they spend it on internet marketing campaigns. And people buy it. Just reject it. Tell the vendor that if you wanted to buy mystery oil, you would get Marvel Mystery Oil, it actually has that claim in its name.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:48 PM   #56
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I don’t find it disappointing, but that is because SAE and API, two certifications that matter, don’t use the word “synthetic” and haven’t for years. The word has no significance in terms of oil quality or performance. And “full synthetic”, “synthetic blend”, and “synthetic technology” therefore mean even less.

What I find disappointing is that some oil companies choose not to actually do any specific certification process, and instead use the phrase “recommended for applications that call for certification xxxx....”. This means that they couldn’t be bothered. It means they want you to just trust them. It means that if they are short of one ingredient in the blend, they can change the formula without telling you. Instead of spending money on certifications they spend it on internet marketing campaigns. And people buy it. Just reject it. Tell the vendor that if you wanted to buy mystery oil, you would get Marvel Mystery Oil, it actually has that claim in its name.
JCL - It is funny you mentioned SAE & API does not use the term "synthetic" anymore for a long time now, because I only read/found that out very recently in the process of my search for MB 229.52 compliant & approved oils. Regarding that phrase “recommended for applications that call for certification xxxx....”. Earlier in this thread, I was swapping data with CHAPARRAL about Liqui Moly and I stumbled into their newest offering - the Molygen line. It is so very easy for even a diligent consumer like me to bite when I see the phrase on their product description "LIQUI MOLY RECOMMENDS THIS PRODUCT FOR VEHICLES THAT NEEDS TO COMPLY THE FOLLOWING SPECIFICATIONS: MB 229.52" . But then when I dug further, I realized they did not say "APPROVALS: MB Freigabe 229.52" as it is stated for their Top Tec 4600 or 4605."

So you are absolutely right, buyers beware. I consider myself a very research-diligent buyer, but I literally almost put an order in for 3x 5L of Molygen yesterday and only got lucky that I went to double check the "Approvals" column and found NONE to date for this line.
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Old 08-19-2018, 06:45 AM   #57
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Again, I highly recommend looking at the web site dedicated to engine oils and lubricants. www.bobistheoilguy.com
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Old 08-21-2018, 04:53 PM   #58
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Alex, thank you for doing the research on the Liqui Moly oils! It sounds like the MB/Bevo list needs some cleaning up. I saw the Molygen pop up, but I didn't dig into it. It will be interesting indeed to see if it gets MB approval. But I think I'm switching to non-synthetic Shell Rotella. It comes in 55 gallon drums, great for recycling!
Vern, jcl, et. al., thanks for your input too.
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Old 08-21-2018, 05:29 PM   #59
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Alex, thank you for doing the research on the Liqui Moly oils! It sounds like the MB/Bevo list needs some cleaning up. I saw the Molygen pop up, but I didn't dig into it. It will be interesting indeed to see if it gets MB approval. But I think I'm switching to non-synthetic Shell Rotella. It comes in 55 gallon drums, great for recycling!
Vern, jcl, et. al., thanks for your input too.
CHAPARRAL - Glad to help and learn in the process. OH MY! 55 gallon drum, I wish I had room for it.
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Old 08-21-2018, 06:05 PM   #60
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Alex, thank you for doing the research on the Liqui Moly oils! It sounds like the MB/Bevo list needs some cleaning up. I saw the Molygen pop up, but I didn't dig into it. It will be interesting indeed to see if it gets MB approval. But I think I'm switching to non-synthetic Shell Rotella. It comes in 55 gallon drums, great for recycling!
Vern, jcl, et. al., thanks for your input too.
LiquiMoly isnt necessarily waiting for an approval. Their SOP is to not apply for approvals. They don’t appear to value them, presumably because they have calculated that they can find sufficient sales to people who don’t want certified oils that they don’t need to pay the fees to get them certified.

For the Rotella, are you intending to use a lower tech oil that doesn’t meet MB specs, for a vehicle under warranty? If so, that seems somewhat foolhardy.
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