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Old 09-28-2018, 07:31 PM   #41
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I am looking at buying the Interstate 19. I too am trying to figure out how to address the anemic battery capacity. I do plan to camp and generally do not go to campgrounds with hook ups. For example, I spent a week at Arches National Park’s campground - no hookups.

I have read the post on Battleborn lithium batteries. Another Interstate owner posted about using the Goal Zero Lithium 3000 to supplement the AGMs. Others have additional AGMs to increase their battery capacity. These three options have the batteries under the back lounge. I am concerned about the small area in the back of the AI19. I have also read in this forum about the usefulness of upgrading to a MPPT solar controller and battery isolator.

So my head is spinning at what will be a reasonable option to get through the night with a good battery system for a reasonable amount of money.

Lewster and others - your input and ideas would be appreciated.
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:17 PM   #42
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I've been researching the lithium vs. agm for the last several months. Here's what I've concluded.

For lithium:

1. Go big if money is no objecct; i.e., Advanced RV. But you'll have to travel there. They use a system built by these guys, which also in theory could be installed by anyone who had the knowledge to do so, but the manufacturer will not sell them directly. This is a high voltage system with a second alternator. Cost: Although the cost is not posted, you can bet it is $20,000.00+

2. Go middle, but still not cheap. AMSolar or Lew, Victron batteries, BMS and accessories. It's very complicated to install and the documentation is poor, so it takes someone like Lew or AMSolar's to install it.If you can afford it, it the next best choice if money isn't a big concern. Likely $10,000.00-$15,000.00.

3. Go cheap (well, relatively speaking). Battleborn or Lifeblue batteries which are pretty much drop in place. But, you'll need to change the way the alternator works with the chassis and house batteries which consists of either using a Victron Cyrix-Li-ct or some other method that will deal with the difference between the lithium charging and the chassis battery (and to keep the lithium from dischaging back to the chassis battery). Another method would be to use a DC to DC 12vdc charger and forget the combiner altogether (my favorite). Cost: $5000.00 including labor if you don't do it yourself. But, it's not that complicated as the BMS are built in, so it's a fairly easy upgrade to do yourself (parts alone would be around$3000.00, making it fairly affordable considering the batteries should last the rest of your RV'ing life.

There's also other changes you have to make. A disconnect to kill the inverter positive cable if you store the van below freezing as the inverter draws .64 amps constantly, and if it is below freezing, you can't charge lithiums so you will need to kill any draw during storage. Of course, if you don't the batteries have a built in BMS that will keep it from discharging completely, but that's not the recommended storage method.

5. For this option forget lithium, and stick with AGM. Pro's-cheaper, and just plug and play. Con's-if you want to increase the available amps, you probably don't have room or want the extra weight. It will take four Group27 12vdc 100amp batteris weighing several hundred pounds to equal 2 125amp Lithiums weighing about 30 pounds each.

Can you do it yourself? Certainly, if you have basic skills and understand how 12vdc system work. AMSolar pretty much will help you if you buy the batteries/accessories from them. But for the Victron system, while it could be done, I don't want to even think about it.

So, what have I decided? I'll probably take door number 3, and likely go with 2x125 amp Lifeblue's for a total of 250 amps (usable would be about 190 amps or so, almost equivalent to 400amps of AGM's), a dc to dc 40 amp charger, two disconnects (one to the alternator and one to the inverter), and new higher gauge cables.

It really isn't rocket science, although Victron's batteries and controllers are not very well documented, making that choice harder. And the Victron's batteries are much more expensive requiring a separate BMS. On the other hand, Battleborn and Lifeblue's are new to the market. Will they be around in a few years? Who knows? With that in mind, Lifeline AGM's are the absolute safest bet.

And that's why I'm still not sure what I will do.
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Old 09-28-2018, 11:01 PM   #43
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Kiss diy...👍

2 lithium BB's...10yr warranty & great customer service
Victron 700 monitor, simple & a lot of good info.
battery cut-off switch.
BoonDocker BD1260CL...thank's Randy
cable, hardware & AC/DC tester

$2365.00 on Amazon & Best Converter
Not sooper fancy but we don't 'camp' fancy and I've spent a lot more more & got a lot less. 😳

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Old 09-29-2018, 04:15 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by MLWilcox View Post
I am looking at buying the Interstate 19. I too am trying to figure out how to address the anemic battery capacity. I do plan to camp and generally do not go to campgrounds with hook ups. For example, I spent a week at Arches National Park’s campground - no hookups.

I have read the post on Battleborn lithium batteries. Another Interstate owner posted about using the Goal Zero Lithium 3000 to supplement the AGMs. Others have additional AGMs to increase their battery capacity. These three options have the batteries under the back lounge. I am concerned about the small area in the back of the AI19. I have also read in this forum about the usefulness of upgrading to a MPPT solar controller and battery isolator.

So my head is spinning at what will be a reasonable option to get through the night with a good battery system for a reasonable amount of money.

Lewster and others - your input and ideas would be appreciated.

*******
That's me with the Goal Zero 3000 and here's an update on real world usage. We're four months into a six month journey on the road. We boondock about 2x per week, usually only one or two nights each time in between campgrounds. We've only used the generator 3x to charge batteries this year. Even with the added resonator on the generator we are uncomfortable running it around other campers.

Conclusions:
First of all, the stock 160Ah (80Ah usuable) is a joke and everyone should upgrade or count on replacing them often due to over discharge. This is from a Grand Tour user who has a separate fridge and freezer drawing 7.5A total and they are both on most of the time.

We upgraded to 2x Lifeline GPL-4CT 220Ah 6V (220Ah total in series - 110Ah usable). It's not enough. We wake up having used up nearly 110Ah over a 12-14hr period. So I plug in the Goal Zero to rescue the situation before damaging the batteries.

The Goal Zero is very handy to take over powering the coach and recharging the Lifelines. It required a second transfer switch installed by the AS dealer in Portland OR. We use it to run CPAP, table lamp with LED bulb, and coffeemaker every day. Sometimes hair dryer too. This daily usage only pulls the GZ down about 10% per day. When we plug it into the coach it pulls down about 40% before I stop using it and later start the engine to travel and recharge on the road, during which time I am also using the AI inverter to (slowly) recharge the Goal Zero at its maximum 280W input. So I'll do this two nights in a row before I need to be plugged in and recharge, but that's with only traveling about 3hrs, 100 miles, each day. If we travel for 4-5 hours the alternator will recharge both the house batteries and the GZ more fully, but not completely, so we can extend our dry camping capability. This is with minimal solar.

If I don't travel at all, my 300W of solar is not enough to charge everything back up even on a full sun day. On those days, I do not let the solar charge the GZ because that requires conversion of 12V to 110V to feed the GZ which converts back to 12V through the four power cords with inline transformers. So instead all the solar goes straight into the house batteries. After three sunny days and nights of no engine running and no generator running I was depleted. (80+ degree days, almost no furnace at night)

The power conversion losses are very real. You lose about 20% or more in each direction pulling 12V from the GZ and feeding 110V into the coach, which takes it and converts it back to 12V as it charges the house batteries. This is a guesstimate. If I could, I'd pipe 12V direct to the fridge and freezer each night from the GZ. I think I'd be in heaven and maybe forget all about an upgrade to lithium. (FlyfshnRVR, did you solve that issue?)

Weight: We are at full capacity of 11000 lbs and need to go on a diet. Like gmillerok1, I'm considering a lithium upgrade but not sure how to proceed. These Lifelines are 2x66lbs. We have them mounted in the GT hidden trunk space which is not ideal because they act as a lever on the rear suspension. Stay tuned for our story of woes and why those batteries are there. So I moved the Goal Zero (also 66lbs) forward, and inside, to where your legs would want to be when seated on the sofa. We have our sofa laying flat, with our Tempurpedic mattress topper folded like a taco on top. This makes the GZ tucked away so it does not interfere with legs when seated on the jackknife seats. This has been great(!) because I can manage the power cords going in and out and monitor the readout very easily. I can see the display from 10 feet away. At night when the bed is fully made I cannot reach it though so sometimes, if I'm starting out with less than 80% house batteries but want to go to bed, I'll use a programmable timer that comes on in the middle of the night then shuts off after 2-3 hours so I don't fully deplete the GZ.

I could put in 2x100Ah Battleborn lithium batteries (30lbs each, 160Ah usable) in place of the Lifelines and trim about 74 lbs way back there in the rear locker. This would lessen my need for the Goal Zero. If I install lithiums in back under the sofa, closer to the axle, that would be even better for the suspension. If I put in 3x100Ah BB (240Ah usable), I could remove the Goal Zero entirely and trim another 36 lbs net. But as gmillerok1 and others have pointed out, this requires more electronics to manage the charging and discharging situation.

Alternator amperage: Considering my situation of limited driving time per day I wonder if the stock alternator would deliver enough amps to recharge the lithiums in that time period. I've watched my BMV-712 report as much as 70Amps going into the batteries from the alternator, but only initially, which then settles down to 30-40Amps then falling further as it tapers off for Absorb charge. I know the lithiums can take the full beans of amperage without a tapering off but is it enough to replenish 200-240Amps in three hours? Can I get 70Amps constantly from my stock alternator?

I hope someone will weigh in on this.
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Old 09-29-2018, 05:33 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by MLWilcox View Post
I am looking at buying the Interstate 19. I too am trying to figure out how to address the anemic battery capacity. ....I am concerned about the small area in the back of the AI19. ....
So my head is spinning at what will be a reasonable option to get through the night with a good battery system for a reasonable amount of money.
.....
This question starts to intrude into "purple squirrel" territory. That term is typically used to describe prospective employees who are a magic match to an employer's needs - i.e., the perfect fit of high education and high experience coupled with low salary expectation, a fit that does not exist, and cannot be found in nature.

Purple squirrel camper vans are analogous. They are a magic match to a buyer's needs - i.e., the perfect fit of high quality and high functionality coupled with low sticker price, a fit that does not exist, and cannot be found in nature.

The reason why installers such as Lewster consume so much storage space with their systems is that it would be unbearably expensive for them to do otherwise. Everybody wants perfection but nobody is able to pay for it. It could easily be 3x the labor cost to install the same components in a manner that doesn't consume any storage space.

I know this, because my husband and I have done exactly that. The only reason we did it was that it was a labor of love for us. Our van is not a shorty but it's not much larger - it's the next size up rather than being the EXT that Airstream had been using as its current Interstate platform up until the very recent introduction of the Interstate 19. We have NO space behind the rear seats, zippo, and we couldn't spare any of the limited space that we do have under the couches and in the closet. So we meticulously spliced all of our components into existing void spaces.

I estimate that, if we started our own upfitting company (which we have discussed) and did this same caliber of careful retrofit work for a customer, we'd probably be in the range of $40,00 to $50,000 for the install (guesstimate - for such a company, I don't yet have a feel for what liability insurances, Workers Comp, and other overhead costs would run me). This would make absolutely no financial sense for anyone who wasn't independently wealthy and didn't care about their bills - they'd be better off just going and buying an off-the-shelf Travato instead.

Does it sound unbelievably high? Advanced RV vans are in the range of $225,000 - $300,000+. This is why. This work simply can't be done in a mass production manner - it's a black hole sink of labor costs.

Blog post series Part 1 and Part 2 on this install, but the job was so complicated that I haven't even been able to find the time to finish writing it up Parts 3 and 4 yet.

Overview diagram:

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Old 09-29-2018, 05:59 AM   #46
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Hi

Ok, so now we have a duplicate post about your project tagged to yet another ancient lithium battery conversation..... errrr .... why not either start your own thread or tag it on to one of the current lithium project threads?

Bob


Yee Ha, and we are off to the races !!!

Move over, hitches, tires, dawgs and porcupines, there is new felony count of battery on the court docket . . .

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Old 09-29-2018, 06:11 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Tronadora View Post
*******
....
....
Alternator amperage: Considering my situation of limited driving time per day I wonder if the stock alternator would deliver enough amps to recharge the lithiums in that time period. I've watched my BMV-712 report as much as 70Amps going into the batteries from the alternator, but only initially, which then settles down to 30-40Amps then falling further as it tapers off for Absorb charge. I know the lithiums can take the full beans of amperage without a tapering off but is it enough to replenish 200-240Amps in three hours? Can I get 70Amps constantly from my stock alternator?

I hope someone will weigh in on this.
My husband and I know a great deal about these systems, having designed and implemented one ourselves (mostly him).

Right now, the alternator remains a wild card in the equation. What's happening to many bleeding edge owners in practice doesn't seem to be reflecting the on-paper theory of what SHOULD be happening. The reasons for this are not clear at this point, but I describe some of the chaotic results in this blog post below.

If you read this post, remember that my husband and I should know what we are doing by this time, as DIYers who have dedicated probably at least a thousand hours to our van systems (also, my husband is a licensed mechanical engineer with a vast amount of automotive experience). But alternator complexities have thus far eluded most of us, including some high-dollar professional installers. This is just the state of the art right now.

PSA: ALTERNATOR CLUTCH PULLEY FAILURES ON LITHIUM SYSTEMS

The best builder out there, Advanced RV, got sick and tired of dealing with failures of the alternators they were installing. Once again, those alternators looked like they would work on paper, but they did not work in practice. In response to this, they engineered their own mods. If you haven't watched this 6-minute vid, I recommend it, just so that you can get a feel for what it takes to make alternator charging reliable.

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Old 09-29-2018, 06:33 AM   #48
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Tronadora - thanks for the update. I was curious how your system was working. I am an REI member with an REI credit card so with my annual dividend and 20% off coupon every March, I can pick up a GZ Lithium 3000 very reasonably. In talking with Goal Zero a couple of days ago, they should be releasing the ability to daisy change to AGMs by the first of the year. We shall see.

Robert Cross - I have been thinking a 200ah lithium setup would meet my needs nicely for a reasonable price. I would need to add in installation. Thank you.

Since I am not a do it yourself type person, I just need to find someone who can install for me in the Southeast.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:00 AM   #49
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2 lithium BB's...10yr warranty
. . .
What will you do, way up north there, when freezing weather comes? Keep the AS plugged in, pull the lithium batteries, or . . . ? Are they in an unheated space in your 25' AS? I thought that charging lithium batteries was not possible if they are below 32 F.



Thanks,

Peter
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:40 AM   #50
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[QUOTE=

Robert Cross - I have been thinking a 200ah lithium setup would meet my needs nicely for a reasonable price. I would need to add in installation. Thank you.

Since I am not a do it yourself type person, I just need to find someone who can install for me in the Southeast.[/QUOTE]

I took the road I did because I believe in.... KeepItStupidSimple 😂
All I did really was change stuff.👍
Disconnect & remove AGM's
Added a Lithium compatible converter...unplug and secure the three wires.
Replaced 4 cables from the buss bar.
Installed a master battery cutoff switch 3 wires.

The only item that took any contemplation was the Victron 700 monitor.
Ended up buying a housing to mount in, no holes needed, velcroed it to the mouse fur on the wall. The shunt was a simple install. A little confusing at first because of the separate battery compartments on the Classic, (4 cables leading to two buss bars on opposite sides of the trailer) 🤪, requiring a longer neg cable to reach back to the common grounds on the buss bar.

The converter compartment is not really a 'rats' nest, more like a 'mole hole'. 😂 But it is clean, safe and I took reference photos for the next owner. 👍
Install new batteries...👌🏽

There are a lot of qualified folks in your neck of the woods, you shouldn't have a problem finding someone to help...good luck!

Bob
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Old 09-29-2018, 08:16 AM   #51
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What will you do, way up north there, when freezing weather comes? Keep the AS plugged in, pull the lithium batteries, or . . . ? Are they in an unheated space in your 25' AS? I thought that charging lithium batteries was not possible if they are below 32 F.



Thanks,

Peter

I have Victron lithium batteries. They can have a current draw down to -4 deg F. My batteries are inside the coach, so if temperature is low, I can turn on the furnace. Granted it could take some time to get batteries’ temperature up above 32, but it is an option. Currently, I disconnect the batteries when it goes into storage.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:06 AM   #52
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I asked the low temp charge question when I spoke with BB. They said not to sweat it.
If I wanted to be 100%sure , install a disconnect switch, I did.
Sitting in low temps with no draw won't damage them.👍
I have a O.22a parasitic draw in storage mode...I will be checking regularly thru the Winter, will see if it needs to topped-up.


"BMS (Battery Management System)
Every Battle Born battery has a built in BMS. Our BMS is tested 3 times for quality before the battery is sealed. This battery management system keeps you and your battery safe and ensures that your Battle Born battery will last many years. We use an actual battery manage- ment system with programmable logic, not just a voltage driven control board. The protections in your BMS include high and low voltage protection, short circuit protection, high and low temperature protection, low temperature charging protection and automatic cell balancing. Our BMS will reset automatically after 5 seconds in a fault condition."

Bob
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:17 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Tronadora View Post
*******
...
Alternator amperage: Considering my situation of limited driving time per day I wonder if the stock alternator would deliver enough amps to recharge the lithiums in that time period. I've watched my BMV-712 report as much as 70Amps going into the batteries from the alternator, but only initially, which then settles down to 30-40Amps then falling further as it tapers off for Absorb charge. I know the lithiums can take the full beans of amperage without a tapering off but is it enough to replenish 200-240Amps in three hours? Can I get 70Amps constantly from my stock alternator?

I hope someone will weigh in on this.
One issue that is a concern to me is that lithiums if fully discharged have less resistance, or so they say, and I've heard report of burned out alternators with lithium upgrades with a standard combiner. AMSolar recommend the Victron ct-li, which basiscally connects and disconnects over a period of time to keep it from getting to hot. I don't much like that approach, and is why I'm leaning more toward a 40 amp or 60 amp dc to dc charger. Both BB and Lifeblue recommend a 60 amp charge rate.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:18 AM   #54
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Just a reminder to anyone adding more loads to a stock Sprinter alternator. Daimler has always limited the added charging load for extra batteries to 40A as mentioned in their upfitter manuals. Copy of page attached below. There is no detailed explanation why, but it does say exceeding 40A may result in damage. I think this is why many builders are now adding second alternators for Lithium coach/house batteries. Also note that the Interstate system delivered from Airstream does not satisfy this requirement or the limit of adding more than 100AH battery to the vehicle charging system.

I have an upgraded 440AH Lifeline AGM battery system with 400 Watts of solar. I also have a current meter on the charging line going to the coach batteries. When my coach batteries are down about 20% from a night of dry camping I see a initial surge of about 40A going to batteries when in daylight with solar adding to the charging. This quickly tapers to about 10A. My conclusion is that the Airstream system charging AGM batteries seldom exceeds the 40A limit, which is why the stock system has not caused problems.

Adding Lithium batteries is a different situation that likely needs a separate second alternator.

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Old 09-29-2018, 09:30 AM   #55
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Just a reminder to anyone adding more loads to a stock Sprinter alternator. Daimler has always limited the added charging load for extra batteries to 40A as mentioned in their upfitter manuals. Copy of page attached below. There is no detailed explanation why, but it does say exceeding 40A may result in damage. I think this is why many builders are now adding second alternators for Lithium coach/house batteries. Also note that the Interstate system delivered from Airstream does not satisfy this requirement or the limit of adding more than 100AH battery to the vehicle charging system.

I have an upgraded 440AH Lifeline AGM battery system with 400 Watts of solar. I also have a current meter on the charging line going to the coach batteries. When my coach batteries are down about 20% from a night of dry camping I see a initial surge of about 40A going to batteries when in daylight with solar adding to the charging. This quickly tapers to about 10A. My conclusion is that the Airstream system charging AGM batteries seldom exceeds the 40A limit, which is why the stock system has not caused problems.

Adding Lithium batteries is a different situation that likely needs a separate second alternator.

Attachment 323953
Here's two alternatives.

This charger made by Redarc uses a simple 4 gauge wire to the chassis battery, and supplies 40amps. Sterling makes another up to 60amps. The Springer alternator is a heavy duty model and can handle up to 200 amps. The problem is how long can it do that? Apparently, that's the problem. The Victron ct-li gets around that by limiting the draw for 20 minutes so it can cool down. I still don't like that approach because it doesn't limit the amp draw to 40 amps.

To charge them at the fastest rate they can be charged probably would require a second alternator. But I don't much like Advanced RV's big alternator either because I'm not sure the engine can really handle it over time. That things a monster.

We don't plan on running the AC, which is the biggest draw. Unless I upgrade to a larger inverter, the microwave is out, too (although I'm considering replacing the microwave with a 700 amp smaller model, because we don't need that big unit as all we do is heat up some soap or something similar).

Basically, if you are going to do what the MS1012 can do and not much more, I think either the Victron ct-li or a dc to dc charger would do just fine.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:32 AM   #56
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Hi

If you are freaking out about alternators and lithium batteries, the solution is fairly simple:

Put in a DC/DC converter.

You can get them from a variety of outfits, Victron is one of many. You can size them to provide whatever max alternator load you think it reasonable. If 20A is your max, that's what you buy. If it's 40A, get one of those instead. They also let you control the charge voltage on the lithium's independent of the alternator's regulator.

The whole "nuke alternators" thing would be equally true if you put 400AH of usable lead acid ( 800AH ... yikes ...) into your RV and ran them down. Lots of charge current for a long time no matter how you do it. The DC/DC drops the current, but stretches out the recovery time. That's just the way it works ....

A couple of pluses with the DC/DC:

It lets you shut off charging if you need to. (like to just charge the chassis battery).

It prevents back flow of current from the lithium to the rest of the system (there are other ways to do this).

Cost wise, compared to what your many hundreds of amp hours of lithiums cost, they are dirt cheap. Size wise, not so bad. Not a lot to wire in and not a lot to manage.

Bob
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:25 AM   #57
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*******
That's me with the Goal Zero 3000 ...So I plug in the Goal Zero to rescue the situation before damaging the batteries. ... The Goal Zero is very handy to take over powering the coach and recharging the Lifelines. It required a second transfer switch installed by the AS dealer in Portland OR. ....
Could you please expand on the way the GZ is connected? I'm presuming it produces120 A/C that you somehow feed into the van circuits. What is the physical connection, and the transfer switch you mention.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:44 AM   #58
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The difference in a dc to dc converter is that a dc to dc charger can be configured specifically for charging and maintaining lithiums. Converters just convert.
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Old 09-29-2018, 10:53 AM   #59
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The difference in a dc to dc converter is that a dc to dc charger can be configured specifically for charging and maintaining lithiums. Converters just convert.
Hi

Many of the "lithium chargers" simply put out a fixed voltage at a limited current. That's *exactly* what a DC/DC converter does. If you set one to 13.5V output it will do a pretty good job of charging up your lithiums as you roll down the road.

======

There are a couple of gotcha's with alternators. They often are rated in terms of maximum output for a short duration. They rarely have current limiting built into them ( at least limiting short of damage to the device). Using one past it's reasonable (as opposed to maximum) ratings does indeed create issues. That's true no matter what the offending load is.

Bob
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Old 09-29-2018, 01:20 PM   #60
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August 28, 2015. That's when this thread hatched and that is the first time I recall hearing any serious inquiry about lithium on this forum. And I was road-testing our lithium DIY system by January 2017.

In case this hasn't been mentioned on any of the related threads, here's a wizard (widget?) that allows cost calculation of various lithium DIY systems. It requires components to be placed in one's Amazon cart, where they must be later deleted (presumably).

Ordinarily I'd call this a useful wizard, but the Battle Borns are not available on Amazon right now, and so it won't price them or add them to your cart. But for future reference...

https://faroutride.com/electrical-system#wizard
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