Lithium Batteries?

[UKDUDE]

I think the decision on whether to upgrade your batteries (and solar, etc) is a very personal one depending on your own circumstances. For example, I live in a part of the country with abundant sun, so my solar panel, a miserable 50W as it is, is able to keep my batteries charged - just. Also I'm able to keep my AI plugged in when it's sitting at home in the garage. So the standard Magnum set-up with the standard Lifeline batteries is OK for me, although I could always do with more capacity.

Incidentally, the standard batteries are 80 AH Lifelines (GPL-24T):
Lifeline Batteries - Marine & RV Deep Cycle Batteries

[lewster]

Originally Posted by galvestongrl

Thanks to everyone who shared their knowledge on this topic. We have a 2013 Extended Lounge on a 2012 Sprinter – must be similar to Boxster1971’s. I thought we had 2- 100ah under the lounge when we picked it up in Dec. 2012, but we’re not sure if they ever worked. We were so new to all things RV we followed the outline in the owners manual and didn’t leave the Interstate plugged in – just plugged in every 30 days for a 48 hour period. At that time we didn’t know you were supposed to monitor the batteries so closely. The batteries were determined to be bad about a year ago and were replaced (at our cost). And these replacements are bad now and need to be replaced. This is over a period of only 2 ½ years now since we got the vehicle. The replacement batteries may have been damaged already when we bought them from our dealer. They were “barely used” from a trailer they had just received as a trade-in. Again, we didn’t know how much maintenance is required to keep these AGM batteries alive. We’ve now focused and learned a lot, mostly from these forums and reading the manuals on line.

The replacement batteries have turned out to NOT be 2-100 ah, but 2-80 ah. They are Lifeline and they fit perfectly in the tray that slides out from under the rear lounge. (Makes us wonder if we ever had 100ah sized batteries to begin with or not.)

We are trying to figure out if we can just drop in Lithium right now and worry about upgrading our solar later this year. We have a trip planned in October (the Grand Circle in Utah) and want to have batteries for it. Our Interstate came with the Magnum MM1212 inverter/charger with a Magnum ME-MR remote. I’ve spoken with Magnum tech support (very helpful) and tech support for Smart Batteries, Lithium battery people.

It sounds like the Magnum equipment that came with the Interstate will be “OK” with the lithium Smart Batteries. The lithium requires the Magnum to operate at Bulk 14.4V, Absorb 14.6V, and Float 13.6V. And these batteries come with a built in Battery Management system to keep them from overcharging, etc. But they are expensive. And the dimensions aren’t perfect to fit in our tray under the lounge. The 2-80ah we took out were 11.1” long by 6.6 wide by 9.3 high. The 11.1 dimension was snug. (I don’t see how Airstream put 2-100ah batteries (13.1” long) in that tray at the factory. I wish I had asked to see them when they were replaced at our dealer.) The Lifeline 100ah correlates well to Smart Batteries 100ah which is 12.75” long. So I think this company is trying to make their battery a direct replacement.
12V RV Batteries | Deep Cycle Lithium Ion Batteries | Smart Battery

But even if we get the 2 smaller Lithium 75aH, we could have 150 ah we could use instead of 2-80aH AGM that we can only use a portion of the 160 ah.

And if we’re right about being able to just drop these in, we would be paying $2000. for lithium vs. $600 for Lifeline AGM’s.

Hard to pull the trigger on the $2000. But if we somehow keep ruining the AGM’s……

If you keep ruining AGMs, I would think that the problem lies in your charging system and not necessarily with your batteries themselves. I would NOT want to recommend lithiums to you UNLESS you have your charging system thoroughly checked and documented by a knowledgeable and experienced professional......and I DON'T mean by a battery shop of RV dealer!! Under charging can do as much if not more damage to AGMs as over charging will!

You STILL can not draw a lithium battery to zero, as indicated by Smart Battery. I would guess that these cells are actually 100 amp/hours each and are limited to 75%, or 75 amp/hour of capacity by their internal battery monitor.

Be very careful when looking at the claims of some lithium companies. It is definitely Cavaet Emptor!!!!!!!

BTW, The Magnum MM-1212 has the same charging section as the MMS-1012, which will NOT accept the very specific programming commands required for the custom charging parameters that we use our lithium batteries. Be VERY CAREFUL out there!!!!

[Boxster1971]

Personally I think a solar upgrade is a more important first step before considering lithium batteries.


- - Mike
2013 Interstate Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter

[InterBlog]

So this whole issue that you are considering traces back to the common problem of ruined batteries - now I see your situation more clearly.

Another factor to consider - there have been some lively discussions on separate threads about whether it is worth paying to garage an Interstate. I will say that, as a former owner of a ruined battery, all of our problems vanished (knock wood) with the commencement of garaging. We can leave our Interstate plugged into a timer that tops off the Lifeline coach battery according to the most protective schedule (which my husband devised).

We rent a HUGE bay at a facility on FM 646 and it costs me $135 per month billed automatically to my credit card so I don't have to mess with it. We did this for a number of reasons, not just a battery consideration. It's a month-to-month contract and at first we weren't sure if we would like how the cost-benefit equation worked out. A year later, I'm sold. It simply removes all hassle factor and gives me peace of mind. Battery life, break-ins, hail damage, flooding, unscheduled hurricanes, long-term UV degradation of sealants and finishes, accelerated corrosion, HOA conflicts, parking struggles, bird poop - I don't have to worry about any of these things. That is worth the price to me. Plus I have the option of storing additional crap in the bay that would otherwise clog up our garage.

[KJRitchie]

That is a great deal for enclosed storage with electricity. I'm paying $115/mo for open covered storage and no electricity but I'm in a spot that has huge RVs next to me and behind me and I face away from the prevailing weather. The storage is gated and everyone has a keycode which must be used to enter and exit. They do offer enclosed storage with electricity but its a much higher cost and would be a pain to back into with a trailer. I store covered for many of the same reasons. I disconnect my negative terminal from the battery when stored.

Kelvin

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

That is a great deal for enclosed storage with electricity. I'm paying $115/mo for open covered storage and no electricity but I'm in a spot that has huge RVs next to me and behind me and I face away from the prevailing weather. The storage is gated and everyone has a keycode which must be used to enter and exit. They do offer enclosed storage with electricity but its a much higher cost and would be a pain to back into with a trailer. I store covered for many of the same reasons. I disconnect my negative terminal from the battery when stored.

Kelvin

We shopped around and found that prices vary dramatically in our area (location, location, location).

We also found different attitudes among the facility owners, who tend to be mostly independent. For instance, the bays are supposed to be for storage, not active work, but because there is electricity provided, some renters will take liberties. Which is absolutely fine with us and with everyone else apparently - the more eyes on the place, the better, so if Bubba wants to work on his brakes while in his own bay, power to him.

Our key fobs are chipped so that, not only do you need a fob to get through the gate, the system records WHICH renters were on the property and exactly when they entered and exited. And of course there are cameras and lights everywhere. We've seen zero problems with security.

I also rented a centrally-situated bay (about 200 feet of "padding" on either side of it) because in Galveston County we obviously have a hurricane issue and sometimes they can blow up fast. So if I'm out of the country as I am for several weeks every summer, I don't have to make provisions for the Interstate to be moved to safety. Our building is fairly new and from the look of it, I suspect fairly recent coastal county building code.

[galvestongrl]

Thanks again to everyone! I just purchased 2 - 80aH Lifelines from a Yacht dealer in Kemah up the road. (Just happened to be there at the same time another Airstream Interstate owner was purchasing replacements!) The owner helped me, tested the batteries (dead) and said he thinks they are being overcharged since one side of a battery was bulging out. Lewster may be exactly right and there's something wrong with our charging system. Will try to figure this one out.

And thank you Interblog for the suggestion on storage. That does sound very reasonable!

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by galvestongrl

Thanks again to everyone! I just purchased 2 - 80aH Lifelines from a Yacht dealer in Kemah up the road. (Just happened to be there at the same time another Airstream Interstate owner was purchasing replacements!) The owner helped me, tested the batteries (dead) and said he thinks they are being overcharged since one side of a battery was bulging out. Lewster may be exactly right and there's something wrong with our charging system. Will try to figure this one out.

And thank you Interblog for the suggestion on storage. That does sound very reasonable!

I've heard off-Forum rumors of an Interstate owner somewhere around Kemah, and you end up in Kemah and just happen to run into them...? I feel like the last one to the party here! For over a year, I've been trying to spot an Interstate in the wild, and my husband, with no effort at all, spots a silver one on NASA Road 1 the other day and nails the perfect pic of it (I wonder if that might have been one or the other of you?). Sigh...

[galvestongrl]

Our 2013 Interstate has a Magnum inverter/charger. The owner's manual states there is a "battery temperature sensor". Does anyone know if Airstream hooks this up in their installation? We did not notice an additional wire on either of the batteries, so it makes us think our AI isn't using this temperature information. Could this cause the battery to be overcharged in our hot Texas weather?

[lewster]

Yep!

The charging level for Lifeline batteries is 14.2-14.4VDC for bulk/absorb charge and 13.2-13.4 VDC for float charge AT 77 deg. F.

As temperatures increase, the required charging set points drop. I don't have the temperature tables in front if me, but the Magnum will assume a 77 deg. F environment with no temp sensor in place.


Lew Farber
RVIA/RVDA Nationally Certified Master Tech
Master Tech Energy Systems, Inc.
AM Solar Certified Installation Center
Lifeline Batteries**Magnum Inverters
541-490-6357

[Marks71]

Follow up question re: solar PLUS lithium:

We're trading in our Interstate for a Winn/Itaska Navion (pause for incoming ) It has no solar so I'm going to have 3-400w installed by an authorized guy. The vehicle comes with a Progressive Dynamics 9200 series power converter, which has 3 modes: boost (14.4 v) normal (13.6) and storage (13.2)

I don't know whether I need to replace that with a MPPT charger/ controller or whether the Progressive will work with the solar

But regardless of the answer on charger / controller, I WILL upgrade the batteries, which are currently ordinary lead acid deep cycle.

QUESTION: SHOULD I UPGRADE TO AGM OR LITHIUM?
* is there value added in choosing lithium over and above the solar capacity I'm adding?
* if I do choose lithium, how does that impact the charger / controller decision?

Thanks for any perspective

p.s. we don't do a lot of boon docking; in fact, probably more of our stops are at hookups. But we do like the freedom of staying at state parks or national forests when we're in an area that is attractive. And would expect to do more of it with added ability to stay away from shore power. Finally, the fridge in this new unit is an absorption, and will run on battery ONLY if we're driving. Otherwise, it runs on AC when plugged in or on generator, and LP when not plugged in. This was the biggest drag on our battery capacity in the Interstate when we dry-camped

[amirm]

The choice of solar charge controller is separate from what converter you use to charge your batteries from AC source. As to MPPT solar controller, if the little extra cost is not an issue, then I would go with that.

For Lithium, it is a much longer story . Yes if you can put Lithium in there, it would perform a lot better. The system however needs to be designed from day one for that and what you have will not work optimally. You can put it in there anyway but lifetime may be shorter.

An ideal Lithium system has a battery management system that is in charge of shutting down both charging of all sorts (engine, generator, solar and converter) plus discharge (all loads). With that in place, the health of the Lithium batteries is preserved for longest life.

[UKDUDE]

Originally Posted by Marks71

Follow up question re: solar PLUS lithium:

We're trading in our Interstate for a Winn/Itaska Navion (pause for incoming ) It has no solar so I'm going to have 3-400w installed by an authorized guy. The vehicle comes with a Progressive Dynamics 9200 series power converter, which has 3 modes: boost (14.4 v) normal (13.6) and storage (13.2)

I don't know whether I need to replace that with a MPPT charger/ controller or whether the Progressive will work with the solar

But regardless of the answer on charger / controller, I WILL upgrade the batteries, which are currently ordinary lead acid deep cycle.

QUESTION: SHOULD I UPGRADE TO AGM OR LITHIUM?
* is there value added in choosing lithium over and above the solar capacity I'm adding?
* if I do choose lithium, how does that impact the charger / controller decision?

Thanks for any perspective

p.s. we don't do a lot of boon docking; in fact, probably more of our stops are at hookups. But we do like the freedom of staying at state parks or national forests when we're in an area that is attractive. And would expect to do more of it with added ability to stay away from shore power. Finally, the fridge in this new unit is an absorption, and will run on battery ONLY if we're driving. Otherwise, it runs on AC when plugged in or on generator, and LP when not plugged in. This was the biggest drag on our battery capacity in the Interstate when we dry-camped

If you're after something with additional space, AND it's Mercedes-based, AND it's already set up for solar and lithium, I think there's only one current choice: Pleasure-Way make a small coachbuilt; it's built with quality but personally I don't care for the layout.
And anyway, maybe you're already committed to a Winnebago!

[73shark]

Do the lithiums still have the restriction on charging below freezing?

[UKDUDE]

Originally Posted by 73shark

Do the lithiums still have the restriction on charging below freezing?

As far as I know, yes. And in addition while reading about Lithiums a while back, I found out you cannot store them below -4°F (-20°C) which will cause the electrolyte to freeze, causing permanent damage. If storage temperatures go below -4°F then you need to heat the batteries to above -4°F to prevent damage.
So winterizing take on another meaning here.

[amirm]

Originally Posted by 73shark

Do the lithiums still have the restriction on charging below freezing?

Yes. In the case of cells I am buying, starting at 5 degree C the charging current needs to be derated. I plan to put mine inside so it is not a major concern although there will be safety shut off.

[lewster]

Originally Posted by Marks71

Follow up question re: solar PLUS lithium:



We're trading in our Interstate for a Winn/Itaska Navion (pause for incoming ) It has no solar so I'm going to have 3-400w installed by an authorized guy. The vehicle comes with a Progressive Dynamics 9200 series power converter, which has 3 modes: boost (14.4 v) normal (13.6) and storage (13.2)



I don't know whether I need to replace that with a MPPT charger/ controller or whether the Progressive will work with the solar



But regardless of the answer on charger / controller, I WILL upgrade the batteries, which are currently ordinary lead acid deep cycle.



QUESTION: SHOULD I UPGRADE TO AGM OR LITHIUM?

* is there value added in choosing lithium over and above the solar capacity I'm adding?

* if I do choose lithium, how does that impact the charger / controller decision?



Thanks for any perspective



p.s. we don't do a lot of boon docking; in fact, probably more of our stops are at hookups. But we do like the freedom of staying at state parks or national forests when we're in an area that is attractive. And would expect to do more of it with added ability to stay away from shore power. Finally, the fridge in this new unit is an absorption, and will run on battery ONLY if we're driving. Otherwise, it runs on AC when plugged in or on generator, and LP when not plugged in. This was the biggest drag on our battery capacity in the Interstate when we dry-camped

A Progressive Dynamics PD-9200 will be OK for AGMs but not great. No custom programming or temperature compensation. You would be better with a fully programmable inverter/charger from Victron or Magnum.

And speaking of Victron, they have a nicely designed lithium package with full battery monitor capabilities and automatic low temp cut-off features to protect the battery from damage due to charging in below freezing conditions or from excessive draw.

They are light years ahead of AGMs, but also far more expensive.

Whatever floats your boat!!!!

And BTW, you can fit 480 watts of solar (3 X 160 watt panels) on the roof of a View. I've done many. :-))




Lew Farber

[Marks71]

Cool, thanks

[graysailor]

Getting started on my lithium battery

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Ok, so now we have a duplicate post about your project tagged to yet another ancient lithium battery conversation..... errrr .... why not either start your own thread or tag it on to one of the current lithium project threads?

Bob