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Old 02-19-2018, 02:48 PM   #21
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I had started a thread before, but thought I would ask again as this is a very enlightening thread. Anyone have any experience with the Kodiak unit or are they all basically the same. Thanks.
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Old 02-19-2018, 06:31 PM   #22
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Here is your thread where the Inergy Kodiak is discussed:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f37/...rs-176395.html

. . . with a link to the product in Post #3.
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Old 02-21-2018, 07:32 AM   #23
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Regarding running the microwave at 50%: For my microwave all 50% power does is cycle between full power and 0 power. So it does not reduce the maximum power draw, it only reduces the length of time it draws maximum power.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:09 AM   #24
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Regarding running the microwave at 50%: For my microwave all 50% power does is cycle between full power and 0 power. So it does not reduce the maximum power draw, it only reduces the length of time it draws maximum power.
Good point, Titus.

I'm going to be sure my extension cord feeding the microwave from the Yeti is 12AWG, rated for 1875W.

When I get my coach back, I'll do more testing to see how long the microwave will run on high. So far, the only test I did was one minute on full strength with no issues.

For those who are cautious about Li-ion: It is true that Li-ion batteries (and for RC modelers' LiPo batteries) are capable of rare undesirable conflagrations whereas LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron) are quite safe. I think this is why Goal Zero is forcing their product to deliver and receive amperage at mild rates, to stay clear of any condition that could generate too much heat from high current going in or out. For what we need for power draw, and how fast we need to charge, I think it's going to work out well.

I like how the GZ display can simultaneously show the watts going out and the watts coming in, for instance when you are feeding it with solar.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:15 AM   #25
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Goal Zero

Just a quick fyi. I picked up the Yeti 1400 lithium at the factory store in Utah
last Fall at a bargain-refurbished/open box for $1179.00. It's rated at 1500/3000W. Haven't had to use it much as we were winding down our camping season. A quick note - we camped with our CI teardrop and had 90W of portable solar panels. Wanted to use the GZ primarily to power our Dometic fridge/freezer. Sold the tear and now own a AS Sport 22 and are having solar panels (200W) installed on the roof. Hopefully, we will be in good shape for our
camping needs (mostly off grid) since we never used a microwave and only AC briefly a couple of times. The AS now provides us more flexibility with extreme
weather changes. Guess we've gotten soft.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:34 AM   #26
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Regarding running the microwave at 50%: For my microwave all 50% power does is cycle between full power and 0 power. So it does not reduce the maximum power draw, it only reduces the length of time it draws maximum power.


Have you measured this with an amp clamp? I ask because Iíve seen reports on other forums that indicate a different behavior. Also, what make and model microwave do you have? Different ones may behave differently.
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Old 02-21-2018, 09:51 AM   #27
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For those who are cautious about Li-ion: It is true that Li-ion batteries (and for RC modelers' LiPo batteries) are capable of rare undesirable conflagrations whereas LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron) are quite safe. I think this is why Goal Zero is forcing their product to deliver and receive amperage at mild rates, to stay clear of any condition that could generate too much heat from high current going in or out. For what we need for power draw, and how fast we need to charge, I think it's going to work out well.


Actually what the research teams have discovered is the Li battery fires have been caused by internal shorting between the power and ground layers. This happens because little metal ďfingersĒ (aka ďdendritesĒ) form when the battery is charged too quickly and they can pierce the barrier between the two layers.

I only bring this up because I donít want people to think they can safely push extra current into these things if they keep them cool. Itís a problem with the chemistry, not the temperature. Note that LiFePO4 (Lithium Iron Phosphate) doesnít seem to suffer this problem. Iím sure there are plenty of web articles out there explaining why, but Iím not a chemist or a metallurgist so Iíll leave that research to the curious.....
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Old 03-08-2018, 08:25 PM   #28
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Coming back to this thread, has anyone tested plugging 2 power supplies into the AI and charging their Yeti via the AIís inverter while driving? If so, how well did it work?
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:52 AM   #29
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Coming back to this thread, has anyone tested plugging 2 power supplies into the AI and charging their Yeti via the AIís inverter while driving? If so, how well did it work?
I finally got my coach back from the dealer (fixing leaks) and I have some projects to do on it this weekend but I will soon test the Yeti further and submit more information here.
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Old 03-10-2018, 12:01 PM   #30
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I finally got my coach back from the dealer (fixing leaks) and I have some projects to do on it this weekend but I will soon test the Yeti further and submit more information here.
Thanks!

I'm thinking the recharging of the Yeti, especially something as large as the 3000, is going to be a challenge. Even if you buy a second AC adapter to double the charge rate, the limit will be the AI inverter which is only rated at 1000W, or about 9A at 110v. With a 280Ahr battery down 80%, that's 224A that needs to go back in. At 9A, well, it's obvious that's not going to happen during a 8-10hr drive from campsite to campsite. It will be interesting to read your impressions once you get some time with it.
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Old 03-10-2018, 07:00 PM   #31
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Thanks!

I'm thinking the recharging of the Yeti, especially something as large as the 3000, is going to be a challenge. Even if you buy a second AC adapter to double the charge rate, the limit will be the AI inverter which is only rated at 1000W, or about 9A at 110v. With a 280Ahr battery down 80%, that's 224A that needs to go back in. At 9A, well, it's obvious that's not going to happen during a 8-10hr drive from campsite to campsite. It will be interesting to read your impressions once you get some time with it.
Something's not right with that math, maybe you can help me figure it out.

I did some experiments today. To start with, I engaged the Yeti as my power supply when parked, turned on all interior lights, the refer, the freezer and the furnace. The max it drew was a bit over 400W and that included about 12A going into the house batteries for a short time to top them up. Powering half the lights and keeping the refer and freezer going after initial startup was drawing about 180-200W on average. That tells me I can go 12 hours using the Yeti only and running it down 80% (2400 Wh). That's a preliminary guess and I will know more after I get more extended use periods under my belt.

I then powered the microwave directly again and this time was seeing a draw of 2200W on high and the Yeti tripped out after a few seconds. Yes, I had disconnected the power cable feeding the coach, so the micro was the only load. Hmmm... I thought the micro was rated at 1875W and indeed that is what I saw being drawn during my first test a few weeks ago. Anyway, when I heated my lunch at PowerLevel 70%, the Yeti reported 1900W being consumed. This was surprising cause I thought the micro came on full, then idled, then came on full again, etc. It went a minute plus without tripping off.

After a few hours of messing around, the Yeti got down to 86%. I tried doing a charge session with the engine running.... I hooked up two chargers to the only rear outlet that is powered by the inverter; the outlet behind the rear TV. Rats. The more convenient outlets at ankle level near the cup holder (above the low point drain) do not power on unless you are on shore power. So power was going into the Yeti with two chargers passing through the Anderson power port and I was getting 150W of input. After 20 minutes of driving, the Yeti power capacity level came up 2%. That math works out about right, but of course is approximate since it was such a small sampling. 150W x .33 hours = 50Wh of input which is close to 2% of the 3024Wh that it is rated for at full capacity. Obviously, I need to do longer samplings for greater accuracy.

So if I hook up all four chargers I will get roughly 280W. That I have tested. This is not taxing for the 1000W inverter and, as I mentioned earlier, I should be able to replenish 80% capacity (2400 Wh) in about nine hours of driving and/or shore power... either source will charge at the same rate, cause that is what the Goal Zero charger modules will allow.
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Old 03-10-2018, 07:32 PM   #32
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To me it is unfortunate that Airstream is tending towards microwave ovens instead of propane fueled conventional ovens. This makes dry camping unnecessarily complex. Our 2014 AS19 International has a conventional oven. Our friends have a 2015 with the microwave. We can camp indefinitely power-wise with 200 watts of solar and dual group 27 AGM batteries. They have to plug in or let us cook dinner. Dry camping without microwaves, toasters, hot pots, coffee makers is a breeze with no practical luxury left out and is much more economical. My wifeís travel hair dryer runs at the low setting at 750 watts from the inverter for the 15 minutes a day she needs it. It is possible to cook practically anything with 2-3 stovetop burners and a conventional oven. All this 110v AC stuff is partly what we like to leave at home to enjoy the simplicity that camping affords. Anyway, Iím not intending to dis someone elseís approach, just adding some perspective.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:01 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Tronadora View Post
Something's not right with that math, maybe you can help me figure it out.

So power was going into the Yeti with two chargers passing through the Anderson power port and I was getting 150W of input. After 20 minutes of driving, the Yeti power capacity level came up 2%. That math works out about right, but of course is approximate since it was such a small sampling. 150W x .33 hours = 50Wh of input which is close to 2% of the 3024Wh that it is rated for at full capacity. Obviously, I need to do longer samplings for greater accuracy.

So if I hook up all four chargers I will get roughly 280W. That I have tested. This is not taxing for the 1000W inverter and, as I mentioned earlier, I should be able to replenish 80% capacity (2400 Wh) in about nine hours of driving and/or shore power... either source will charge at the same rate, cause that is what the Goal Zero charger modules will allow.


I thought the Yeti AC adapters connected to the round 8mm inputs, not the APP (Anderson Power Pole) inputs???

Re. the numbers, I think you are getting confused because you are mixing AC and DC readings. The AI inverter is 1000W. When itís putting out 110v AC, thatís about 9A. Thatís all youíll get into the Yeti. Each Yeti AC adapter is limited to 5A, so you might even trip the breaker for the inverter. It will be close....

You can confirm the AC adapter charge rate in the Goalzero specs. They state the Yeti 3000 will wall charge in about 25hrs when 2 AC adapters are used. Since each AC adapter can only supply 5A, thatís 10A total. An empty Yeti 3000 needs about 250A to recharge (80% of itís rated 290A). At 10A, thatís 25hrs. At the 9íish amps the AI inverter can supply, it will be a little longer (about 28hrs).
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:28 PM   #34
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To me it is unfortunate that Airstream is tending towards microwave ovens instead of propane fueled conventional ovens. This makes dry camping unnecessarily complex. Our 2014 AS19 International has a conventional oven. Our friends have a 2015 with the microwave. We can camp indefinitely power-wise with 200 watts of solar and dual group 27 AGM batteries. They have to plug in or let us cook dinner. Dry camping without microwaves, toasters, hot pots, coffee makers is a breeze with no practical luxury left out and is much more economical. My wifeís travel hair dryer runs at the low setting at 750 watts from the inverter for the 15 minutes a day she needs it. It is possible to cook practically anything with 2-3 stovetop burners and a conventional oven. All this 110v AC stuff is partly what we like to leave at home to enjoy the simplicity that camping affords. Anyway, Iím not intending to dis someone elseís approach, just adding some perspective.


We might be crossing the streams again (trailer vs B van forums). Nothing stopping the AI van from using the microwave (or anything else for that matter) while boondocking. With a 2800W generator onboard, we can microwave popcorn for days.....
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:43 PM   #35
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I thought the Yeti AC adapters connected to the round 8mm inputs, not the APP (Anderson Power Pole) inputs???

They sell a 4-into-1 combiner cable that takes up to four 8mm inputs and funnels them into one APP plug.

I assume you're right about those numbers, but my head is beginning to hurt, so I'll study them tomorrow
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Old 03-10-2018, 09:17 PM   #36
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Re. the numbers, I think you are getting confused because you are mixing AC and DC readings. The AI inverter is 1000W. When itís putting out 110v AC, thatís about 9A. Thatís all youíll get into the Yeti. Each Yeti AC adapter is limited to 5A, so you might even trip the breaker for the inverter. It will be close....

You can confirm the AC adapter charge rate in the Goalzero specs. They state the Yeti 3000 will wall charge in about 25hrs when 2 AC adapters are used. Since each AC adapter can only supply 5A, thatís 10A total. An empty Yeti 3000 needs about 250A to recharge (80% of itís rated 290A). At 10A, thatís 25hrs. At the 9íish amps the AI inverter can supply, it will be a little longer (about 28hrs).
I know I keep thinking in watt hours and you're talking amps, but I'm wondering if you are using rated numbers vs actual performance numbers?
I'm happy to be wrong, my non-engineer brain can once in a while learn something.

So if 25 hours for full charge using two chargers, then 12.5 hours with four chargers. Or.... 12.5x0.8 (for 80% DofD) = 10 hours I suppose.
When I use watt hours supported by actual observed numbers (I'm assuming they remain constant during the charging cycle) it comes out closer to nine hours, so we're close.

The Goal Zero chargers will only let 62W pass through to their PWM inputs at the front left of the Yeti and the chargers are allowed to input 70W using the MPPT inputs at the upper right. Total of about 280W if I use all four chargers through the MPPT. That's how I was getting to nine hours to replenish 2400Wh instead of ten hours. Someday I'll verify it.

Caution: Mind numbing details ahead
BTW, I can mix and match where the inputs go; MPPT 8mm, MPPT APP, PWM 8mm, PWM APP, but the max efficiency comes from putting all four chargers into the MPPT charger controller and it doesn't matter if some of the chargers' 8mm plugs go into the 8mm jacks or through the combiner Anderson cable.

Thanks for the questions and comments !
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:47 PM   #37
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So if 25 hours for full charge using two chargers, then 12.5 hours with four chargers. Or.... 12.5x0.8 (for 80% DofD) = 10 hours I suppose.
When I use watt hours supported by actual observed numbers (I'm assuming they remain constant during the charging cycle) it comes out closer to nine hours, so we're close.
No matter how many chargers you use, the Interstate's inverter can only push 9'ish amps out. If you want to charge your Yeti while driving down the road, and do it by plugging chargers into the outlets being driven by that inverter, it doesn't matter how many you use, 9A is all you're gonna get.....sadly.
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Old 03-11-2018, 07:58 AM   #38
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I know I keep thinking in watt hours and you're talking amps, but I'm wondering if you are using rated numbers vs actual performance numbers?
I'm happy to be wrong, my non-engineer brain can once in a while learn something.

So if 25 hours for full charge using two chargers, then 12.5 hours with four chargers. Or.... 12.5x0.8 (for 80% DofD) = 10 hours I suppose.
When I use watt hours supported by actual observed numbers (I'm assuming they remain constant during the charging cycle) it comes out closer to nine hours, so we're close.

The Goal Zero chargers will only let 62W pass through to their PWM inputs at the front left of the Yeti and the chargers are allowed to input 70W using the MPPT inputs at the upper right. Total of about 280W if I use all four chargers through the MPPT. That's how I was getting to nine hours to replenish 2400Wh instead of ten hours. Someday I'll verify it.

Caution: Mind numbing details ahead
BTW, I can mix and match where the inputs go; MPPT 8mm, MPPT APP, PWM 8mm, PWM APP, but the max efficiency comes from putting all four chargers into the MPPT charger controller and it doesn't matter if some of the chargers' 8mm plugs go into the 8mm jacks or through the combiner Anderson cable.

Thanks for the questions and comments !


Just to further confuse the discussion, I haven't noticed anyone mention the losses/ ineffeciency of the conversion process (110vac to 12dc or vice versa).
There is ALWAYS some loss in any conversion. Especially in small, wall wart type, chargers/converters of the sort typically used for low current chargers.
If you can find, or measure, the input vs the output of these small chargers, you may find as much as 50% loss of power (watts) between in and out.
Just means that you can't count on getting the power output of any device getting through the conversion process to the next user/ device at the same power (watts) level. You gotta do the math, or measure the output at each step of the way.

9A at 110v = 990 w. out of any device won't yield anywhere near 990 w after conversion to 12 or 16v DC. ( BTW, it took more than 990 w at 12v DC to get her in the first place, if this is inverter output.)

NO FREE LUNCHES, HERE. Conversion cost something, every time.

Also, please remember, Li Ion and LiPo batteries require VOLTAGE limiting as well as current limiting during charging. Improper charging of Lithium batteries can cause fires. If you use any charge system other than the manufacturers recopmmended charger, you must make sure that their voltage and current limits are met..
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Old 03-11-2018, 08:49 AM   #39
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Abraham: you are quite right to bring up the power conversion losses. Actually, I did acknowledge this in the original post. As I learn more about actual performances I'll post the details.

Regarding the way the Yeti gets recharged, it's all being handled by the Goal Zero charging bricks so no worries there. They take 110v and process the energy going into the Yeti. There is no hard wired or bypassed method being used. And GZ cautions against using their 12v port for input.

I wish that GZ permitted greater output via 12v so we could power the refer and the freezer directly....
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Old 03-11-2018, 08:52 AM   #40
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. . .
If you use any charge system other than the manufacturers recopmmended charger, you must make sure that their voltage and current limits are met..
Referring everyone back to Post #17, where a similar point was made, with a few follow-up posts on topic.

FYI

[click on orange arrow to see the full post]
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Is this the unit being discussed?

http://www.goalzero.com/p/509/goal-z...-power-station

Could the Sterling add-on chargers referenced in Post #14 . . . possibly void the Goal Zero warranty? On the page linked above, it says:

"DO NOT ATTEMPT TO CHARGE YOUR YETI LITHIUM FROM A 12V SOURCE. Doing so may cause damage to the unit, cable, as well as your vehicle."
. . .
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