Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-14-2019, 06:03 AM   #61
4 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Fort Davis , Texas
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
Pat - not disputing anything, just thought I'd add more on lithium options. Your articles on TruckCamperAdventure are great. Thanks for posting the link, it is a great read. You put a lot of work into that prototype project. Has it migrated to a vehicle?

We share some history. I was also a Naval Aviator. Went through Pensacola AOCS in 1970 and have fond memories of the Marine drill instructors.

I do have a question on your choice of a 120VAC to 12VDC converter for the primary 12VDC loads. In the end I see you added several small 48-12V converters for fans. Did that make you think a larger single 48-12V converter would have been a better choice?

Regards,
Mike,

Not a problem, we're good. Glad you enjoyed the article. Haven't gotten it to a vehicle yet, still saving my penny's since it will have to be a custom build.

AOC Class 29-69 myself, under the watchful eye of Gunnery Sargent Bodine. It is amazing how well those Drill Instructors teach Attention to Detail.

As for as the AC/DC Power Supply, they are a lot more efficient than DC/DC converters and, since I have the capability to by-pass the system, I wanted DC power available. Am thinking about replacing the two fans with 48V versions so I can do away with two of the converters. The third small converter is actually a 5W AC/12VDC converter to power the AC panel back lights if I am bypassing the Inverter/Charger/Battery system. I do have a 60 Amp 48V/12V converter standing by if I change my mind.

Pat
pdavitt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 12:33 PM   #62
Wannabe RV'er in training
 
Alex AVI's Avatar
 
2018 Interstate Lounge Ext
High Desert , Las Vegas , Nevada
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,460
PAT - I finished reading your PART-2 while I was unwinding my day last night. Normally, I pull up some technical reading (like this) to put me to sleep. But what can I say, other than it was such a good read I could not fall asleep

You are right, it was intense reading. But having done a short stint doing technical writing & proofing in HP, I appreciate how well you have documented the project - I am a sucker for detailed diagrams. It does show you spent almost all your time on the design (rightfully so). After the read, I thought this (24v Victron setup) would be viable for what I am looking for. But I am still bumping into hard physical height limitations of where I want to put the batts, inside under the couch. Allowing for airflow, the 1'5" height of your batt enclosure would definitely be a minimum to strive for. And I don't have that under the couch. I could not find any info from Victron docs if the batts can be laid sideways. I have to look into other location options if to use the Victron. FYI - I would be looking to get similar 12kWh capacity as the Volta so that I can run A/C and get rid of gen. Back to drawing board.

BTW - Needing an expensive MG CANBus to USB interface + “Lynx Ion BMS Tool” ? Is this one-&-same or 2 separate tools? I guess that would preclude a DIY install. Seems like Victron is targeting this system towards volume upfitters, similar to Volta.
Alex AVI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 01:47 PM   #63
4 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Fort Davis , Texas
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex AVI View Post
PAT - I finished reading your PART-2 while I was unwinding my day last night. Normally, I pull up some technical reading (like this) to put me to sleep. But what can I say, other than it was such a good read I could not fall asleep

You are right, it was intense reading. But having done a short stint doing technical writing & proofing in HP, I appreciate how well you have documented the project - I am a sucker for detailed diagrams. It does show you spent almost all your time on the design (rightfully so). After the read, I thought this (24v Victron setup) would be viable for what I am looking for. But I am still bumping into hard physical height limitations of where I want to put the batts, inside under the couch. Allowing for airflow, the 1'5" height of your batt enclosure would definitely be a minimum to strive for. And I don't have that under the couch. I could not find any info from Victron docs if the batts can be laid sideways. I have to look into other location options if to use the Victron. FYI - I would be looking to get similar 12kWh capacity as the Volta so that I can run A/C and get rid of gen. Back to drawing board.

BTW - Needing an expensive MG CANBus to USB interface + “Lynx Ion BMS Tool” ? Is this one-&-same or 2 separate tools? I guess that would preclude a DIY install. Seems like Victron is targeting this system towards volume upfitters, similar to Volta.
Alex,
I'll check with Victron on the battery orientation.

The Canbus to usb is a physical device, the tool is free software from Victron. I've the device if you want to borrow it.

Pat
pdavitt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 04:23 PM   #64
Wannabe RV'er in training
 
Alex AVI's Avatar
 
2018 Interstate Lounge Ext
High Desert , Las Vegas , Nevada
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdavitt View Post
Alex,
I'll check with Victron on the battery orientation.

The Canbus to usb is a physical device, the tool is free software from Victron. I've the device if you want to borrow it.

Pat
PAT - Thanks for info & offer. I was searching through Victron's Install manuals and found the one for their 24v batt. family. Was disappointed to see that the headroom they are expecting is minimum 200mm (7.8"). I saw you only allocated 3" in your enclosure. Was there buy-in from Victron that 3" was ok, esp. given you have allocated more spacing in between both batts? And/or I assume the placement of the 3" cooling fan allowed for minimal headroom? The reason this piques my curiosity is due to my local environment when the system would be regularly exposed to +110 degree ambient temps and +125 degree indoor cabin temps the entire summer.

I understand you are still in process of testing the thermal management to make sure the cooling fans are sized correctly and nothing over heats. I would be watching your results closely.

And of course, my incident with my Magnum inverter catching on fire makes me very in-flexible about adhering to manufacturer min. clearances for acceptable airflow, so they can not question whether the system is working in a supported environment or not.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Victron 24v Annotation 2019-02-14 150005.jpg
Views:	37
Size:	67.6 KB
ID:	333624   Click image for larger version

Name:	Victron 24v 1 Annotation 2019-02-14 150005.jpg
Views:	71
Size:	70.9 KB
ID:	333625  

Alex AVI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 05:13 PM   #65
Rivet Master
 
Boxster1971's Avatar

 
2013 Interstate Coach
Fulton , Maryland
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,445
Alex, Pat and others planning Lithium upgrades also need to consider cold temps. The Tesla and other BEV (battery electric vehicle) battery packs have very sophisticated environmental control system. My new Chevrolet Bolt EV, like Tesla, has cooling and heating systems to keep the battery at optimal temperatures.

For RV application the discharge load on the battery pack is low enough that cooling fans might be adequate. But if you plan to use Lithium batteries when in freezing temps they need heating in order to be charged.

The Volta enclosed battery has a built in heater. Most top quality RV applications I've read about indicate they have heaters to keep batteries above 40F when charging.

Enjoying this thread discussions as I think this is future for RV electric systems, especially for B-vans and pickup truck campers where space and weight are critical.
__________________
- - Mike
--------------------------
2013 Airstream Interstate Lounge EXT
Boxster1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 06:40 PM   #66
Wannabe RV'er in training
 
Alex AVI's Avatar
 
2018 Interstate Lounge Ext
High Desert , Las Vegas , Nevada
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
Alex, Pat and others planning Lithium upgrades also need to consider cold temps. The Tesla and other BEV (battery electric vehicle) battery packs have very sophisticated environmental control system. My new Chevrolet Bolt EV, like Tesla, has cooling and heating systems to keep the battery at optimal temperatures.

For RV application the discharge load on the battery pack is low enough that cooling fans might be adequate. But if you plan to use Lithium batteries when in freezing temps they need heating in order to be charged.

The Volta enclosed battery has a built in heater. Most top quality RV applications I've read about indicate they have heaters to keep batteries above 40F when charging.

Enjoying this thread discussions as I think this is future for RV electric systems, especially for B-vans and pickup truck campers where space and weight are critical.
MIKE - Yes, this is wise advice. I brought up hi-temp side concern since that would be my primary concern given my local use pattern. Based on it's posted specs, I would be hitting the high limits of ANY lithium system (operating charge/discharge & especially storage). I conceive no situation where I would be using my van close to freezing temps. And if for some weird reason I did, any new batts will be inside giving it a better safety margin than if installed undercarriage. But you right, those low limits need to be considered too.

For the Victron, I guarantee I will easily exceed the upper limits every summer.
Operating Charge 0~45 degree C (32~113 F)
Operating Discharge -20~55 degree C (-4~131 F)
Storage -20~45 degree C (-4~113 F)
Alex AVI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 06:45 PM   #67
4 Rivet Member
 
2016 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Houston , Texas
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 333
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
. My new Chevrolet Bolt EV,
Mike, we also have a Bolt and I've looked at the Bolt Module as an RV option as well with a silicon heating pad. I'm still on the Volta track at the moment, but watching Alex closely. I'll visit a volt installer next month to explore options before I take a leap in one direction or the other.
Mcrid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 07:08 PM   #68
Rivet Master
 
Boxster1971's Avatar

 
2013 Interstate Coach
Fulton , Maryland
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,445
There is a related thread on the Class B Forum. I'll cross-post for those interested...

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...th-8677-2.html
__________________
- - Mike
--------------------------
2013 Airstream Interstate Lounge EXT
Boxster1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 05:55 AM   #69
4 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Fort Davis , Texas
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex AVI View Post
PAT - Thanks for info & offer. I was searching through Victron's Install manuals and found the one for their 24v batt. family. Was disappointed to see that the headroom they are expecting is minimum 200mm (7.8"). I saw you only allocated 3" in your enclosure. Was there buy-in from Victron that 3" was ok, esp. given you have allocated more spacing in between both batts? And/or I assume the placement of the 3" cooling fan allowed for minimal headroom? The reason this piques my curiosity is due to my local environment when the system would be regularly exposed to +110 degree ambient temps and +125 degree indoor cabin temps the entire summer.

I understand you are still in process of testing the thermal management to make sure the cooling fans are sized correctly and nothing over heats. I would be watching your results closely.

And of course, my incident with my Magnum inverter catching on fire makes me very in-flexible about adhering to manufacturer min. clearances for acceptable airflow, so they can not question whether the system is working in a supported environment or not.
Alex,

Heard back from Victron on mounting the HE batteries. I think this may be because of the built in cooling fans in the HE batteries. I quote:

"If possible put them up right; thats what they've been engineered for. But can be done on their side.

Note that this is not for the 12.8V LFP battery ranges. Only the Lithium HE batteries."

As far as the cooling clearances, my assumption is that these are for static environments, with no forced air cooling fans. Heat is heat, if you remove it you should be ok. Time will tell. The fan in the battery enclosure is controlled by a relay in the BMS that is set to turn the fan on and off at the same battery temperatures that activate the internal battery fans. Attached is a spreadsheet I used to calculate the Heat Loss for the electrical enclosure.

Pat
Attached Files
File Type: xlsx HeatLoss_Calc.xlsx (11.0 KB, 8 views)
pdavitt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-23-2019, 09:04 AM   #70
4 Rivet Member
 
2016 Interstate Grand Tour Ext
Houston , Texas
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 333
Over on the AI Facebook page is a post with a Volta conversion on a 2018 AI. 13.5kw unit that went in place of the genset. States 6.5 hours with full load before the auto start kicked in. Impressive. He has a photo pulling 3kw with everything running.
Mcrid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2019, 04:52 PM   #71
Wannabe RV'er in training
 
Alex AVI's Avatar
 
2018 Interstate Lounge Ext
High Desert , Las Vegas , Nevada
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mcrider View Post
Over on the AI Facebook page is a post with a Volta conversion on a 2018 AI. 13.5kw unit that went in place of the genset. States 6.5 hours with full load before the auto start kicked in. Impressive. He has a photo pulling 3kw with everything running.
MCRIDER - I don't do FB. Do you know if that 2018 AI has VB Air suspension and E&P Hydraulic levelers? I have both and they constrict the space even more. Between both airbags is 26.5". Available space between rear spare tire forward/toward rear axle is 24" max. Between R/S E&P Leveler leg to C/S E&P air tank is 36". Hand drawn diagram below. I have to contact Elementum again because the 11"x39"x20" they provided initially seems incorrect if compared to Volta .pdf which says 11"x30"x20" for the 13.5kw. But even at that, it would be a fit with no margin for error. I may have to build a hollow carton mock-up that goes over gen to check fit.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20190224_151859.jpg
Views:	47
Size:	258.3 KB
ID:	334272  
Alex AVI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2019, 06:46 PM   #72
Rivet Master
 
Boxster1971's Avatar

 
2013 Interstate Coach
Fulton , Maryland
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,445
ALEX - you are not missing much by not being able to see the info on one owner’s Volta upgrade to his 2018 Interstate. He had the installation done by Holland Motorhomes in Holland, MI. Someone asked the cost and offer was not willing to share that info. There were no significant photos of the install. Just one photo of the control panel. I’ll ask some questions about his configuration and report back any useful details.
__________________
- - Mike
--------------------------
2013 Airstream Interstate Lounge EXT
Boxster1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2019, 07:26 PM   #73
Wannabe RV'er in training
 
Alex AVI's Avatar
 
2018 Interstate Lounge Ext
High Desert , Las Vegas , Nevada
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
ALEX - you are not missing much by not being able to see the info on one owner’s Volta upgrade to his 2018 Interstate. He had the installation done by Holland Motorhomes in Holland, MI. Someone asked the cost and offer was not willing to share that info. There were no significant photos of the install. Just one photo of the control panel. I’ll ask some questions about his configuration and report back any useful details.
MIKE - Thank you. One option I have in order to 'push' the Volta forward as much & as close as possible to rear axle - is to remove spare tire so the length of the VOLTA goes fore/aft and it's width 20" + 2" on each side for framing material (total 24") would fit between the 2 VB bags. This would be ideal for my van's config. If I mounted it's length to span the width of van - the unit has to be behind the VB air bags and E&P brackets. While this affords me the most room to work with, it puts lots of its weight farther back from axle (so not ideal).
Alex AVI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 07:25 AM   #74
Rivet Master
 
Boxster1971's Avatar

 
2013 Interstate Coach
Fulton , Maryland
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3,445
House Conversion to Tesla Pack

ALEX - got a reply from Joe on Facebook this morning. Attached images are the two post he made in reply to my questions. This should help with your plans.
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1641.JPG
Views:	41
Size:	243.9 KB
ID:	334358
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_1641.JPG
Views:	46
Size:	455.2 KB
ID:	334356
__________________
- - Mike
--------------------------
2013 Airstream Interstate Lounge EXT
Boxster1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 08:54 AM   #75
Rivet Master
 
2006 22' Interstate
League City , Texas
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex AVI View Post
PAT - I just finished scoping out the specs on that Victron HE 24v/200AH with the Lynx-Ion BMS. While the issues associated with most Class B vans usually involve limited space (i.e. the need to have a separate DC-DC converter), this system is worth me looking into. While there is a need for the extra hardware associated with 24v/48v system, my calculations point to the Victron being more efficient than the Volta in the usable-kWh per sq.in or cu.in calculations. May not be an issue in a big ClassA but certainly a HUGE factor to consider in my ClassB. Same is true in usable-kWh per lb. numbers calculation.

VICTRON - 5.0 kWhr with Usable 4.0 kWhr @ MaxDoD 80% (Victron spec)
Dimensions 14.25"Lx7.6"Wx13.9"H and Weight 63lbs.
= 108sq.in & 1,511cu.in & 37kWh/sq.in & 2.6kWh/cu.in. & 63 kWh/lb.


VOLTA - 13.5 kWhr with Usable 12.1 kWhr @ MaxDod 90% (Volta spec)
Dimensions 30"Lx20"Wx11"H and Weight 234lbs.
= 600sq.in & 6,600cu.in. = 20kWh/sq.in & 1.8kWh/cu.in & 51 kWh/lb.

You were right when you said "These were the the highest density "regular" batteries I could find when I was doing my research". While I didn't doubt your claim, as an engineer I had to run my numbers to see for myself by how much the Victron surpassed a similar system. The impressive number is the footprint (kWh/sq.in) figure. The Victron is 1.85x better at utilizing it's footprint. That's the one that can help me situate the system better, not to mention it easier to move/find space for 3 smaller 63lb. units instead of one huge 234lb. behemoth. I think my numbers check out. Your thoughts?

Hmmmm - brain gerbels starts moving again
I’ve been away from the forums for a bit and just catching up on this thread. The Volta has the same energy density per cubic inch as our LFP battery for what it’s worth. The Victron has pretty impressive performance and given their engineering history, I would probably trust the safety of their systems over pretty much anyone else in the market.
LB_3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 10:56 AM   #76
Wannabe RV'er in training
 
Alex AVI's Avatar
 
2018 Interstate Lounge Ext
High Desert , Las Vegas , Nevada
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
ALEX - got a reply from Joe on Facebook this morning. Attached images are the two post he made in reply to my questions. This should help with your plans.
MIKE - Thank you for this. Yes, this will help a whole lot with my plans. I know for sure if I went the Volta route, it would be an underchassis mount. Putting the a Volta inside would be virtually impossible without major teardown and then the location would never be ideal. The box is just to huge to find room inside.

Based on what Joe sent you, his config is almost identical to mine, though ARV mounts their E&P control unit at slightly diff location than those coming from AS. Strange that Joe had the control unit moved that far back where spare was, because E&P wants that as close to center between the 4 hydraulic legs for optimal performance. But that's a discussion for diff thread. I kinda thought I would have to remove the spare tire for this to work. I was already scoping out spare tire carriers last night, preparing myself for the inevitable.

Will see how my battery mockup fit, hopefully this weekend. Waiting for EAV to callback with confirmation on absolute max. dimensions needed for brackets.
Alex AVI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 11:09 AM   #77
Wannabe RV'er in training
 
Alex AVI's Avatar
 
2018 Interstate Lounge Ext
High Desert , Las Vegas , Nevada
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by LB_3 View Post
The Victron has pretty impressive performance and given their engineering history, I would probably trust the safety of their systems over pretty much anyone else in the market.
LB3 - if the Volta route proves too much rework, I would go the Victron route AND inside install, which I always wanted in 1st place. I know I will give up interior storage to go Victron route. Regardless of which one, if I have to spend so much for either system, I want enough capacity to completely remove the gen. With the gen gone, that space lost inside can be recovered using the gens original location as storage for items not commonly needed. I actually already have a weatherproof enclosure made for it. PS, I agree Victron is topshelf stuff. But if the underchassis challenges can get worked out, I would prefer the Volta enclosure. It just seems more up to the task in dealing with harsh environment exposure.
Alex AVI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2019, 07:47 AM   #78
Rivet Master
 
PSchw's Avatar
 
2005 39' Skydeck 390 SD
Livingston , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 563
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
ALEX - you are not missing much by not being able to see the info on one owner’s Volta upgrade to his 2018 Interstate. He had the installation done by Holland Motorhomes in Holland, MI. Someone asked the cost and offer was not willing to share that info. There were no significant photos of the install. Just one photo of the control panel. I’ll ask some questions about his configuration and report back any useful details.


I ask him about the cost as I research that too.
Looks like Holland did a good job installing it being not familiar with Holland I got a rough estimate from AdvancedRV of $30k-40k.
They don’t offer a DIY set.
I am going a different route staying with 12V and Lithium batteries.
- peter
PSchw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2019, 08:10 AM   #79
4 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Fort Davis , Texas
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 257
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSchw View Post
I ask him about the cost as I research that too.
Looks like Holland did a good job installing it being not familiar with Holland I got a rough estimate from AdvancedRV of $30k-40k.
They don’t offer a DIY set.
I am going a different route staying with 12V and Lithium batteries.
- peter
I can't blame these companies for not offering DIY kits. Their reputation is on the line. As these systems become more automated and complex (not to mention expensive); one can use the best components money can buy, but if they aren't wired and setup to spec, you are going to have problems.

If I'm the company, better to avoid that headache.

Pat
pdavitt is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2019, 11:14 AM   #80
Rivet Master
 
PSchw's Avatar
 
2005 39' Skydeck 390 SD
Livingston , Texas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 563
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdavitt View Post
I can't blame these companies for not offering DIY kits. Their reputation is on the line. As these systems become more automated and complex (not to mention expensive); one can use the best components money can buy, but if they aren't wired and setup to spec, you are going to have problems.

If I'm the company, better to avoid that headache.

Pat


In general I agree but with all the unprofessional installers on RVs around I rather blame me than someone else.
The only shop I would have no issue with is AdvanceRV all the others I don’t know and don’t want to take a chance with a price tag south of $30k.
-peter
PSchw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tesla Motors New Model X. FishinHatteras On The Road... 87 10-03-2015 08:55 AM
Tesla Powerwall for RV use? chaseav Electrical - Systems, Generators, Batteries & Solar 17 05-14-2015 09:35 AM
To Pack or Not Pack gaylejoe On The Road... 50 02-09-2010 08:03 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.