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Old 11-06-2018, 11:16 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by LB_3 View Post
Wow! It looks like they used 3 self tapping screws to hold those straps in place.

Sorry to see you out of commission again.
The photo of the strap with three self tapping screws is the Onan generator exhaust pipe strap. I've attached a marked up photo since I noticed those screws were partially ripped out. That could have happened when the battery let loose, or they were just installed wrong.
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Old 11-06-2018, 11:32 AM   #22
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This is just awful experience for you guys, sorry to hear! I recalled seeing the DIY setup by Boxster and others were much more robust, this looks flimsy!
Yes - my battery trays were much stronger - made from 1.5"x1.5"x0.125" angle iron. They were also attached to the chassis by 0.5" bolts using existing through the frame holes and custom made clamping brackets. I'm attaching a few photos of details. They were a lot of work to fit, but are very solid to hold the weight of the batteries. I got my basic idea for the battery trays from the Sprinter-Source forum where others have made similar welded steel frames to hold the batteries under a Sprinter van.
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Old 11-06-2018, 11:52 AM   #23
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Hi

This all gets a bit confused as it goes back and forth between "stock AS" stuff and what this or that dealer did or did not do. Unfortunately, there are a lot of different rivets out there. Just spec'ing a size does not always get you the same strength rivet.

All that said, if these are normal / roughly 70 LB batteries .... four rivets isn't a real good idea to hold them. Even with everything done right / proper rivets / proper holes ... rivets come loose. That's just the fact of life in an AS.

Bob
They are actually held in with six "huck" style rivets. The Sprinter sheet metal that those battery trays attach to is very thin. One of the features of a Sprinter to keep them light weight.

Airstream uses the same method to attach the LP Fill Panel to the chassis on the passenger side behind the rear wheels. But the LP Fill Panel is much lighter at about 10 lbs. Photo of area under the Interstate attached.

The stock trays with six rivets and 56 lb 12V batteries is maginal in my view. Increasing the weigh on these trays with heavier batteries is obviously a bad idea. I'm glad I didn't use this method to attach battery trays under my Interstate.
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Old 11-06-2018, 01:19 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by eyechip View Post
The Tray was fine and is still very much attached (thank god)

But it did ripped off the side beam....





So, if I understood this correctly, a dealer modified the tray to accept larger capacity (and heavier) batteries with not additional reinforcement of how the tray attached to the AI... That was not smart.



I wonder if in the process of removing, to modify the tray (you can see the welds), they also made the holes bigger by mistake when removing the original rivets.... or even worse, used aluminum rivets when they installed the tray back after the modification...


I need to see how I can reinforce mine... this scares the carp out of me...
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Old 11-06-2018, 01:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
They are actually held in with six "huck" style rivets. The Sprinter sheet metal that those h trays attach to is very thin. One of the features of a Sprinter to keep them light weight.

Airstream uses the same method to attach the LP Fill Panel to the chassis on the passenger side behind the rear wheels. But the LP Fill Panel is much lighter at about 10 lbs. Photo of area under the Interstate attached.

The stock trays with six rivets and 56 lb 12V batteries is maginal in my view. Increasing the weigh on these trays with heavier batteries is obviously a bad idea. I'm glad I didn't use this method to attach battery trays under my Interstate.
MIKE - This has really got me concerned, the fact that 112-lbs of weight is supported from only 1 side by 12 rivets. As INTERBLOG and you said, probably not the way I would do it. Should have been bolted through frame and maybe even spot welded. Assuming it is not a bad installation issue for now, it still gets complicated by the "upgraded" new trays & batteries weight. Mine is stock, but I am still concerned because if this happens due to the slight increase in the trays/batts, it means even the stock config, there is not much margin/headroom there. Granted, this is sprung weight but it is also cantilevered weight, which presents it's own set of issues outside of sprung vs. unsprung weight issues, with all the weight supported from 1 side only.

So this brings me to this lithium bank from Expion360. I have been reading up on them because I was only interested in their battery monitor. But this thread got me to looking at their lithium solution, not because I need/want lithium. I am not hijacking this thread to be a discussion on benefits of lithium vs.AGM. I am just concentrating on it's form factor & weight. Just got off the phone with Richard of Expion360 to confirm their drop-in solution to the Interstate is 240AH at 64lbs. I had to call him to confirm that is 64lbs.TOTAL for both batteries. He said yes, each 120AH battery is 32lbs. That is a 43% reduction in weight from my stock.

Whether I need lithium or not, and whether it is worth it or not, that is a debate for a different thread. But I am strongly considering it now because of my concern that even a stock tray/battery could fail this way. Or finding a local place to completely customize a bolted and welded tray for me. Or do something to reinforce my stock setup. Either way, I don't feel comfortable with status quo. My only saving grace is I do not live in an area with lots of rain or winter/salt and we are lucky to have good roads here. So hopefully, I have time on my side until I figure out what I want to do.

This is scary stuff. Will be following this thread everyday.
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Old 11-06-2018, 02:59 PM   #26
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MIKE - This has really got me concerned, the fact that 112-lbs of weight is supported from only 1 side by 12 rivets. As INTERBLOG and you said, probably not the way I would do it. Should have been bolted through frame and maybe even spot welded. Assuming it is not a bad installation issue for now, it still gets complicated by the "upgraded" new trays & batteries weight. Mine is stock, but I am still concerned because if this happens due to the slight increase in the trays/batts, it means even the stock config, there is not much margin/headroom there. Granted, this is sprung weight but it is also cantilevered weight, which presents it's own set of issues outside of sprung vs. unsprung weight issues, with all the weight supported from 1 side only....

... This is scary stuff. Will be following this thread everyday.
ALEX - Agree this is scary. If I had these battery trays, especially if modified with heavier batteries, I would add a tie-down strap under the batteries tied to the cross member support in the area of the battery trays. Something like the yellow line I added in the first attached photo of the stock battery trays. This would reduce the cantilever effect.

I'm thinking something like a 1" nylon strap with a ratchet tightener. I used one like this when I was fitting my battery trays. They look like those in my attached photo of my battery tray trial fit before I added the bolt-on clamps. Here is a link to some that might work.
https://www.amazon.com/Ratchet-Nylon.../dp/B00NREHLB2

They are also available at Lowe's or Home Depot.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:35 PM   #27
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Vegas Airstream is pretty upset about this and hats off that they are acting fast. The sent me this picture today and steps going forward.

"Designed this yesterday...to be bolted in the steal beam above batteries. Because the batteries are only riveted into sheet metal.
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Old 11-06-2018, 03:41 PM   #28
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@ALEX

If people here agree in the Vegas Airstream approach that they are going for it seems like a good place for you to get this retrofitted easily and soon.
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Old 11-06-2018, 04:15 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
ALEX - Agree this is scary. If I had these battery trays, especially if modified with heavier batteries, I would add a tie-down strap under the batteries tied to the cross member support in the area of the battery trays. Something like the yellow line I added in the first attached photo of the stock battery trays. This would reduce the cantilever effect.

I'm thinking something like a 1" nylon strap with a ratchet tightener. I used one like this when I was fitting my battery trays. They look like those in my attached photo of my battery tray trial fit before I added the bolt-on clamps. Here is a link to some that might work.
https://www.amazon.com/Ratchet-Nylon.../dp/B00NREHLB2

They are also available at Lowe's or Home Depot.
MIKE - I was thinking exactly that at a MINIMUM secondary safety net. I guess, anything at this point is better than not doing anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eyechip View Post
@ALEX
H
If people here agree in the Vegas Airstream approach that they are going for it seems like a good place for you to get this retrofitted easily and soon.
EYECHIP - that seems like a viable retrofit. I have pending furniture warranty work, so will see this in person when I have to take my unit in. And since I am discussions with them on the EXPION360 battery monitor and now the EV-V120-2A-KIT Viper Power Cell Dual RV Kit - this may be the perfect time to roll everything into one major upgrade. I will contact Joe Curland at AS LV and see what up with the brackets
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Old 11-06-2018, 04:56 PM   #30
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SMH. Bolt through the chassis, as I said. No Kleenex and spit solutions. I don't care if any given strapping or retrofit would help - at some point it has to come down to pride in workmanship.

A DEALER created this atrocity?! Am I comprehending this thread chatter correctly?

If LB_3 and I ever do decide to upfit vans in the future, the world will know that we would never be responsible for anything remotely resembling this failure.
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Old 11-06-2018, 11:04 PM   #31
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SMH. Bolt through the chassis, as I said. No Kleenex and spit solutions. I don't care if any given strapping or retrofit would help - at some point it has to come down to pride in workmanship.

A DEALER created this atrocity?! Am I comprehending this thread chatter correctly?

If LB_3 and I ever do decide to upfit vans in the future, the world will know that we would never be responsible for anything remotely resembling this failure.
INTERBLOG - Not so fast! For the record, I agree with you on the OBVIOUS way to mitigate the problem. But mitigation of this problem, bolting the way you & I want to do, will potentially create a problem with the MB folks. Believe me, I want to bolt this thing NOW, but warranty issues are involved. There is a 148 page doc that every upfitter needs to abide by. It spells out what can & can not be done on the entire van. Everything is spelled out. No upfitter, not even Airstream can just drill into the frame unless it has been pre-approved and satisfies all of MB requirements. So why did AS not get this battery tray & installation location through the approval process so they can avail themselves of better bolting/anchoring points and/or added weld reinforcements? Who knows? Yes, they should've, but it is clear they did not given the inferior method.

I attach just 1 page (page 82) because that covers a portion of what we are discussing here - the requirements for drilling & welding. If this 1 page does not convince you how ridiculously tedious a process this is, then pull up the entire doc and read for yourself. Ever wonder why the E&P Hydraulic Leveling system is all entirely attached with custom clamps bolted via existing holes in the frame? I would guess it was a much easier & cheaper process to custom make brackets than try to abide by every MB requirement needed for them to drill and/or weld onto the frsme.

Go to the MB Upfitter Portal. https://www.upfitterportal.com/en-us/tech-info/beg
Pull up the doc called the Sprinter BEG (MY2014–MY2018 Sprinter Body and Equipment Guidelines). Fyi, there is now a different version for MY2019.

PS, Another good example of abiding by these requirements is MIKE's custom tray that he fabricated using custom clamping brackets utilizing existing holes for bolts to go through. The fact that he did it this way preserves his frame warranty (just in case). I am not sure if that was part of MIKE's thinking but his work certainly accomplishes the desired results.
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Old 11-07-2018, 06:02 AM   #32
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But they DID drill holes. They just didn't use them in the safest way, obviously.

For the sake of debate, OK, I would advise them, DON'T drill any more holes - use the ones already put in. But go down through the chassis in the process of using them.

Edit: The corporate bureaucracy raises an interesting question. For those upfitters who don't abide by the tedious protocols, I wonder do they get their clients to sign a waiver attesting to their agreement with it, or what? We never got far enough with any commissioned mod to find out (e.g., we sought air suspension but couldn't get it for the T1N).
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Old 11-07-2018, 07:48 AM   #33
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The most frustrating thing now is that I have spent two days calling all the service centers in my region and no one can touch it until late December. It's not a priority to get me squeezed in I guess as the issue originated from Vegas Airstream. Trying to find any RV service center in the DC area now that can replace the battery and retrofit. If anyone has suggestions within an hour or two of a tech who can work on this let me know.Getting desperate as I have trips planned in late November and December. I swear I need to open an Airstream Service Center in the DC area, lol.
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Old 11-07-2018, 07:59 AM   #34
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... If anyone has suggestions within an hour or two of a tech who can work on this let me know.Getting desperate as I have trips planned in late November and December....
Well, you are 140 miles from Million Mile Sprinter (Joel Sell), but he does mostly engine work, not upfit work. However, he's the regional Sprinter guru and he might be able to tell you who to contact if the job is not up his alley. You can reach him through either his website linked above or through Instagram.

In August, Joel dropped everything he was doing in order to replace my alternator on the spot, on a Friday afternoon, as I was en route from Houston to Nova Scotia. He's a really good guy. Fair pricing, too.
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Old 11-07-2018, 08:35 PM   #35
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But they DID drill holes. They just didn't use them in the safest way, obviously.

For the sake of debate, OK, I would advise them, DON'T drill any more holes - use the ones already put in. But go down through the chassis in the process of using them.
INTERBLOG - Yes, 100% totally agree, especially the don't drill anymore holes, use the ones already put in, go through the chassis part. Actually, I wonder if they can get in trouble with MB Upfitter Management Vans. From my reading gs of the BEG, they could very well be. I mean, the pictures clearly show this. And it does not look like the proper undercoating application was done. So, do you think maybe we can get MIKE to manufacture his version for us interested . . . hint, hint. For those who have seen his detailed pics, I mean, that's the way they should've come from factory.

EYECHIP - I am headed to AS of LV on Fri to pickup some ordered Expion360 parts. I am hoping to see this bracket 1st hand if Joe let's me. I still think MIKE's design is tops. Hang in there, buddy. I have a feeling you will end up eventually with a more robust system from this experience. Glad it's just damaged parts.
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Old 11-08-2018, 04:16 AM   #36
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Wonder if reporting this to NHTSA would get quicker resolution of this problem IF it exists on stock Interstates and not only on add-ons done at the dealer? Or maybe the dealer add-ons are subject to NHTSA if they are Airstream kits? I typically loathe government interference, but maybe its needed if Airstream manages this issue as poorly as they do the power shades, fusion, etc.
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Old 11-08-2018, 06:57 PM   #37
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Wonder if reporting this to NHTSA would get quicker resolution of this problem IF it exists on stock Interstates and not only on add-ons done at the dealer? Or maybe the dealer add-ons are subject to NHTSA if they are Airstream kits? I typically loathe government interference, but maybe its needed if Airstream manages this issue as poorly as they do the power shades, fusion, etc.

I thought about a NHTSA report also, but I don't think it applies to the modified battery trays. I doubt any of these mods are approved by Airstream.
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Old 11-09-2018, 06:25 PM   #38
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EYECHIP - I was just at Airstream Las Vegas today to do few things:

1. Pickup my EXPION360 battery monitor. Excited to put it in but may have to wait when I can block down time for AI. Have to decide where I want the monitor display. I decided on it because I like the simplicity of direct connect monitors. No bluetooth issues. Also provides all info at a glance displayed on panel all at once. This is important for wife, daughters who don't want to learn all the complex toggling between screens most of us techies are used to. It needed to be as simple possible for them. And it is lithium ready.

2. We discussed the EXPION360 240AH offering at 64-lbs vs. Lifeline AGM 160AH at 112-lbs. At that weight +16-lbs. I can have 4 cells = 480AH. Strongly considering this now, even though I actually have no boondocking need (YET). And if I went Lithium, I will definitely give up room under bed to install inside and then have the battery tray location converted to enclosed storage for infrequent used parts, tools supplies, etc. So, it ought be a close swap of space and not lose much inside space

3. Of course, all the battery discussion brought us to discussing your sheared-off tray mounts. Joe and crew have been proactively checking ALL Interstate battery tray installs for any signs of play, whether stock or with heavier batts. I told him I was going to check it myself but since I was there and could wait for it, he had Jake check. So far, mine is good and no signs of weakening. Regardless, I expressed my concern with AS design. And he agrees. But he has no control over what AS wants to do. Everyone needs to understand this - please do your own due diligence and check your trays or have your shop check. The AS design for these trays is to use 6 rivets per tray (56-lbs.). But those rivets are only attached to MB sheet metal. On prior post with INTERBLOG & MIKE, pretty sure consensus was stock or not, this ain't enough. Bad roads can easily exacerbate the problem and induce a failure. On units that Joe touches for mods, he is adding 3 more rivets AND using the support brackets that are frame attached. That should put most of the weight on the brackets and the 9 rivets relegated to stabilizing duties. It also mitigates the cantilever effect from the trays being attached only on 1 side. The brackets are meant to attach at mid-point under tray. It will have no effect on battery install/removal.

This is what I do not understand - right now, AS will only retrofit the bracket for free for any rig that has failed or showing weakening signs. Not a wise move on their part. But this is not Joe's decision. So while mine is solid, I will most likely opt for the bracket on my own dime. I feel this is a wise move and good use of my funds. Not gonna wait for mine to fail even with knowledge that AS will fix free.

FOOTNOTE - regarding my sit down with Joe Curland (Service Manager) today - My relationship ship with AS LV did not get started on the right foot with 2 major AI problems right off the lot. But it has gotten so much better after we both got a good understanding of one another and that we both want the same thing, for Airstream to have a good product and for them to succeed. To a Joe's credit & his foreman Jake, they have been improving their dealer process. But certain AS issues, he can not control, such as this rivet thing. I feel I now have a very good relationship with Joe, Jake, all the Sales Reps.

This is why I made the decision to buy local and not just chase the cheapest price. I think it is now paying off for me. No matter what anyone says, the relationship is not the same when a dealer knows you never wanted to spend your money locally and then expect them to give you the same priority as the guy who literally put food in their mouths. I know any sale still trickles up to AS revenue. But like they say, all politics is local. The money I could've saved going east coast, I have already gotten back & more. Without my local dealer here (2 yrs ago), I would be like a lot of folks needing a 4-hr. drive just to get a diagnosis.
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Old 11-10-2018, 10:59 AM   #39
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All I can say is wow. Very fortunate to have escaped without more serious consequences. Hoping that you are not inconvenienced too much more. Good advice from the group here. My experience with the RV businesses in general is less than great. The operations do not seem to be well organized or managed, wait times are off the charts and workmanship must be verified. I replaced my Lifelines in April and the battery trays looked OK but will inspect at next opportunity and will investigate the lithium drop in. Another bonus of going to lithium is the lower weight as noted previously. Thanks for sharing this info.
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Old 11-10-2018, 03:53 PM   #40
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I don't think you have to worry (much) if you have the factory installed six rivets and the original weight 56lb batteries.

It was the field-installed holes and rivets that were not able to hold my 66lb 220Ah 6V Lifelines over rough roads after about 8000 miles. The all-new holes had been created to start fresh and accommodate the modified (cut and widened and welded) battery boxes. I think Eyechip's situation was very similar.


But now my frame area looks like Swiss cheese so I won't be re-installing anything there. Anybody wanna buy my enlarged battery boxes ? Only one has slight damage and they are still fully workable. PM me and I'll send pics.
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