Help me decide - Airstream or Sportsmobile

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by Amsterdamer

There is a new kid in town with standard 4x4, the Winnebago Revel. Airstream Interstates have had better build quality in terms of interiors than Winnebago in the past, but I like the rear garage on the Revel for bringing along bikes and other equipment.

Good catch. They must have released this at the Hershey show.

Starting at $135k??? That part I don't get. Seems very high given the basic interior and lack of features (no generator, no furnace, no a/c, no oven, only 2 batteries, etc). Where does the $75k come from over the cost of the 4x4 chassis???

[toskeysam]

To IB...we do run our AC off the battery bank now. New 480 AHRS of lithium batteries, a 3000 watt inverter give us the ability to run AC for up to ~3 hours.....but we don't take it that far. We run it to knock off the edge when the van gets left closed up....or if we stop in hot weather.

[jbmtb]

Does anyone know the price of the Volta system?

Also, when you all quote your AHRS, are those actual or effective amp hours? Not sure if I'm using the correct terminology, but I understand a 200ah AGM gives less usable power than a 200ah lithium.

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by toskeysam

To IB...we do run our AC off the battery bank now. New 480 AHRS of lithium batteries, a 3000 watt inverter give us the ability to run AC for up to ~3 hours.....but we don't take it that far. We run it to knock off the edge when the van gets left closed up....or if we stop in hot weather.

Cool (pun intended). One other so far.

BTW, we covet your locale. We fell in love with Chattanooga when we first drove through it in 2014 (Chattanooga - who knew?!). It's always my favorite corridor on our trek to the far northeast. One day we will make a dedicated trip to the area.

[toskeysam]

Originally Posted by jbmtb

Does anyone know the price of the Volta system?



Also, when you all quote your AHRS, are those actual or effective amp hours? Not sure if I'm using the correct terminology, but I understand a 200ah AGM gives less usable power than a 200ah lithium.

My installed capacity is 480 ahrs. Usable capacity is somewhere around 380-390 ahrs. I haven't had the nerve to take down more than 300 yet.
I have 3 parallel 160 ahr Victron lithiums. Hooked up with a Magnum 3012 Hybrid inverter.

[toskeysam]

My installed capacity is 480 ahrs. Usable capacity is somewhere around 380-390 ahrs. I haven't had the nerve to take down more than 300 yet.
I have 3 parallel 160 ahr Victron lithiums. Hooked up with a Magnum 3012 Hybrid inverter.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by jbmtb

Does anyone know the price of the Volta system?

Also, when you all quote your AHRS, are those actual or effective amp hours? Not sure if I'm using the correct terminology, but I understand a 200ah AGM gives less usable power than a 200ah lithium.

Sorry, I don't. You can give them a call and ask: http://voltapowersystems.com/contact/

Re. battery capacity, for AGMs, usable is 1/2 of actual. For Lithium, usable is approx. 80% of actual. So for a 400Ah system, if it's AGM, usable is 200Ah, if it's Lithium, usable is roughly 320Ah.

That's the good news. The bad news is Lithium is stupidly expensive. A good quality 100Ah AGM is about $250-300. A good quality 100Ah Lithium is about $1000. Yes yes, I know the deals where a friend of a friend of a sister's uncle's nephew got a case of "nearly new" lithium batteries that were used in some telco installation for $10, but I'm talking new, bought from a store just to keep the comparison somewhat sensible.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by jbmtb

Does anyone know the price of the Volta system?



Also, when you all quote your AHRS, are those actual or effective amp hours? Not sure if I'm using the correct terminology, but I understand a 200ah AGM gives less usable power than a 200ah lithium.

Like FlyFishinRVr I don't know the cost of the Volta system. But it is a 48V battery system that requires a 48V alternator, 48V inverter/charger and 48V-12V DC-DC converter. My guess would be around $20,000.

[Denis4x4]

I know several people with Sportmobiles and Earth Roamers that love them. As a long time 4x4 advocate, I would go with the Sportmobile as it's a proven system that can repaired in almost any town in the country. Try finding an MB dealer on a Saturday when you breakdown with a Sprinter 4x4 in Moab!

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by Denis4x4

I know several people with Sportmobiles and Earth Roamers that love them. As a long time 4x4 advocate, I would go with the Sportmobile as it's a proven system that can repaired in almost any town in the country. Try finding an MB dealer on a Saturday when you breakdown with a Sprinter 4x4 in Moab!

Just to avoid confusion, I think what you are recommending is the Sportsmobile built on the Ford 4x4 chassis and not the one built on the MB 4x4 chassis. Sportsmobile now builds on both the Ford and MB 4x4 chassis, but given your comment I'm guessing you are advocating for the Ford. Holler if I have that wrong....

[Denis4x4]

Thanks for the info on Sprinter based Sportsmobile....still doubt if there is an MB dealer open on Saturday in Moab!

[LB_3]

Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr

Sorry, I don't. You can give them a call and ask: http://voltapowersystems.com/contact/

Re. battery capacity, for AGMs, usable is 1/2 of actual. For Lithium, usable is approx. 80% of actual. So for a 400Ah system, if it's AGM, usable is 200Ah, if it's Lithium, usable is roughly 320Ah.

That's the good news. The bad news is Lithium is stupidly expensive. A good quality 100Ah AGM is about $250-300. A good quality 100Ah Lithium is about $1000. Yes yes, I know the deals where a friend of a friend of a sister's uncle's nephew got a case of "nearly new" lithium batteries that were used in some telco installation for $10, but I'm talking new, bought from a store just to keep the comparison somewhat sensible.

Lithiums are expensive but not stupidly so when you consider the deeper discharge and increased cycle life

AGM: $250 / (800 cycles x 100 AHr x 0.5DoD) = $6.25 per 1000AHr discharged
LiFePO4: $800 / (2000 cycles x 100AHr x 0.8DoD) = $5.00 per 1000Ahr discharged.

Obviously there is more to a electrical system than just the batteries but LiFePO4s can be price competitive over the life of a system.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by Denis4x4

Thanks for the info on Sprinter based Sportsmobile....still doubt if there is an MB dealer open on Saturday in Moab!

It's a valid point, but . . .

Moab is a small town in an out of the way location in a lightly populated state. There's plenty of times nothing's much open in that town. I used to haul oilfield loads of hematite there from Houston.

Freightliner has dealerships across the country open 24/7 for the commercial truck fleets (some of which have 10,000+ Freightliners). Pretty well any Interstate highway. And a good reputation for organization.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by jbmtb

I/we definitely want to be able to stealth camp and sleep in parking lots at trailheads, so a trailer is out for us.

I would explore that "certainty" some more. A small SUV and a small AS don't take up much room. Nor are they hard to drive. Easier than a Moho in some unexpected instances. It's some experience, is all.

And RV is an RV. Nothing "stealthy" about them.

A Moho has a few advantages, but the weight & expense (initial plus ongoing) with space utility isn't among them.

The trailers are far more efficient in every respect, and the tow vehicle selection is huge. A motorhome with lots of miles starts to become cost-prohibitive due to labor expense. If you're really serious about 20-years of ownership.

(If it isn't garaged, expect far faster deterioration. Etc. )

I say all this as I note those new are enamored of motorhomes. One vehicle compromised in both jobs. Versus two ideal for more than just travel.

Take your time. You've lucked into a great set of owners with this thread.

Good luck.

[FlyFishinRVr]

Originally Posted by LB_3

Lithiums are expensive but not stupidly so when you consider the deeper discharge and increased cycle life

AGM: $250 / (800 cycles x 100 AHr x 0.5DoD) = $6.25 per 1000AHr discharged
LiFePO4: $800 / (2000 cycles x 100AHr x 0.8DoD) = $5.00 per 1000Ahr discharged.

Obviously there is more to a electrical system than just the batteries but LiFePO4s can be price competitive over the life of a system.

Cycles only matter if you use all of them. While that may be true if you're full-timing, it certainly won't be true if you're just a weekender. Just like with AGMs, the lifespan of LiFePO4 is limited (only 13-15 years according to current estimates), so you're definitely not getting your money's worth if you don't use the coach a lot....

[InterBlog]

Originally Posted by slowmover

....

And RV is an RV. Nothing "stealthy" about them.

....
The trailers are far more efficient in every respect, and the tow vehicle selection is huge. ....

I believe you will find extensive disagreement with these points. Half the reason many of us have Interstates is that they are among the stealthiest options out there. What the OP is talking about in the way of staying at trail heads... absolutely not possible with trailers of any kind. Not possible in the state of Texas, at least. An owner hauling even a small trailer will get ejected from trail parking lots so fast it would make their head spin. Interstates, not at all, because it's a van.

Knock wood, but there's basically nowhere I've stealth-camped overnight where I've gotten into conflict with local stakeholders. In zero percent of those locations would I have been able to do that with a trailer.

And I do it almost exclusively. My husband and I haven't hooked up at a camp site since 2015. (We do occasionally choose to park at camp sites when the pickins are good and the situation fits our needs.)

[slowmover]

I can see why the perception exists that an obvious RV is somehow NOT an RV, but I fail to see the difference when two seconds with an Internet connection verifies that folks may be "camping" in a place not designated for such.

Windows on any van are a giveaway. Next are the observable undercarriage accouterments. Bang on the side of the van. Jigs up.

IOW, is it being argued that if I "pay for the privilege" (the appearance of propriety; yet nothing at all in the way of accord) then all is well as to a park ban on camping outside designated areas?

Leaving that behind, it thus makes the RV choice too focused on an irregular use. Over a twenty year lifespan and X-nights aboard, how often will the "privilege" have been used?

Not enough to justify the difference, I'd wager. Especially given the the other disadvantages.

(Stakeholder: now there's a funny word. Dreamed up by lobbyists and means encroachment on individual private property rights to favor corporate interests. Funny, as isn't this revolving around the use of ones property? I guess some property is more equal than others).

Whether I approve or disapprove is beside the point. I also disagree (strongly) with the idea that a trailers tow vehicle should be an oversized farm vehicle as it's PRIMARY role is as family transportation. Less stable and rollover-prone doesn't match that.

For those who can afford multiple vehicles, it's moot. For the rest of us, it's a long term proposition to tie up this money.

Trailhead camping theft of service (was a permit paid?) isn't a clinching argument if it's not the majority of use.

And there does come a point where hiking or biking may no longer be possible. Inside twenty years is plenty of room for age, injury, sickness to eliminate this point from consideration. Thus, depreciation and re-sale value in three months, three years or thirteen.

My comments are in the way of context. Some RVs are simply less efficient in cost versus useable space. All capacities. Some are very highly priced, yet can do less.

Moving down the road is the minor matter. That's maybe 6-8 hours of 24. An RV is defined by its capacities throughout those 24. That's where to first focus. Compare AND contrast.

From where I sit, park the trailer and drive to the trailhead doesn't appear AT ALL a burden. It's a also a short drive BACK to the trailer. Why I brought up that folks new to RVing are enamored of motorhomes: trailers APPEAR difficult due to lack of experience. But it doesn't take much of that to counter the perception. The "advantage" of trailhead parking, isn't. Not when a trailer far more capable than an upfitted van is available a short drive away.

In the same vein, pulling over to park and take a nap is no more difficult with car and trailer than with a van. Hell, I pull over this eighteen wheeler in places I know I'll not have a problem and there are plenty of those.

And is there really room in a van for several people to change clothing and shower pretty much all at once? Is there ever a situation where an adjacent parking space is commandeered for gear packing and unpacking? Let's not quibble: a campsite with a trailer is a far easier place (and in a taxpayer-funded park, appropriate) for all these things. And more. Much more.

What the OP does is of course his concern. I'll imagine also that there will be others who read this thread in research of same. So the experience of those of us who choose against an upfiited van is worth consideration. Contrast. It's not either/or so much as it's careful consideration of every aspect of ownership and operation.

To that end are several recent threads on the Nissan NV series. One features a trailer owner who extensively modified the van interior to accommodate pursuit of out door activities. And would still serve the purpose of a place to sleep overnight at work, etc.

.

[InterBlog]

Your tile says Forth Worth. Do you do a lot of camping in Texas? If you do, you'll know that there are thirty million people in Texas and camping reservations are pushed as much as one year out on many of the parks worth visiting. It's not "stealing" when there is zero possibility of paying for the service in the first place because there's no service for sale. The only way that my husband and I have gotten to see many of the areas in this great state is to get creative about where and how we stay while on the road. During that process, we've never had anyone bang on the sides of our van, ponder the configuration of our windows (because MANY vans have windows), or peer under her skirts to see if there are components there. It's a van. Nobody cares. If it's in a parking lot overnight, then it's a van in a parking lot overnight in with all the other parked vehicles.

And we find other ways of supporting local economies, given that we are chronically locked out of paying reservation fees. Park and volunteer group donations (especially the "Friends of" park groups). Business patronage. There are many options for the creative. Having a van allows us to take a horrible situation (complete failure of local, state, and federal governments to develop parks even remotely on pace with population growth) and make the best of it for everyone.

[LB_3]

Originally Posted by slowmover

And RV is an RV. Nothing "stealthy" about them.

A Moho has a few advantages, but the weight & expense (initial plus ongoing) with space utility isn't among them.

The trailers are far more efficient in every respect, and the tow vehicle selection is huge. A motorhome with lots of miles starts to become cost-prohibitive due to labor expense. If you're really serious about 20-years of ownership.

For many of us, 'Stealth' camping is an important aspect of our #vanlife. It's not that knowbody know's we're there so much as that we carry a smaller footprint that is much less objectionable to interested parties. It might be as simple as being able to stay in a friend's driveway overnight without drawing the ire of the neighbors or homeowner's association. On our last month long trip, we stayed in apartment parking lots for 3 nights, airport parking lots on 2 nights, 1 trailhead, and a few Cracker Barrels. The last of which are also trailer friendly. If you read the Sprinter Forums and Class-B Forums there are threds about people 'stealth' camping in Lower Manhattan. I'm not sure how welcome a 25' trailer and tow vehicle would be in those urban ares or if it would even be possible to find consecutive open parking spots on the street in Manhattan. Would it even be safe to unhitch your trailer in an urban area while you use your tow vehicle to visit various sites?

Here is my response to a previous trailer forum poster who questioned why we love our class B vans:

If you only travel 200 miles up to the lake and stay there a week or 10 days, a trailer is your answer. If on the other hand you like to travel thousands of miles and only stay a day or two in any one place before moving on, the Interstate may be a better fit.
The Grand Tour, is called that for a reason; it excels at touring. A 30' trailer is difficult to park in urban areas making any stops along your route more difficult. But with the Interstate's ability to park most anywhere a car can park, dropping in and out of anyplace is a breeze. Sudden detours for BBQ in Memphis or a museum along your route are only minor delays instead of major ordeals.

You simply make your bed in the morning, then pull on to the road. No need to hook up a trailer and the load distributing hitch, no need to stop for lunch or to let your passengers make potty breaks. Hell, if I had to pull over after eating a burrito, we're going to lose 45 miles. Instead, we just hit a rest stop long enough to switch drivers and I take care of my buisness while we're on the road.

If you outfit an Interstate with solar, you have a very versatile vehicle. It can boondock for a week in the wilderness, tailgate before the big game, take your friends to the riverboat casino in comfort, travel thousands of miles while getting 20 mpg, parallel park in town, and gives you the flexibility to change plans at a moment's notice. That last part is what we find most fun. When we don't have to make reservations at a campsite and have the ability to stealth camp literally anywhere, we can make deeper connections with the new friends we meet along our route.

If we were in an F250 looking at a lighthouse while our trailer was parked in a campground 25 miles away the curator of the lighthouse might not have come out to talk to us. And if he did he never would have invited us to stay the night in that single parking spot at the end of a little dirt road.

The Interstate is expensive but you get a lot more than just a trailer. Not to mention you don't need to buy that big F-250 to pull it.

[rodsterinfl]

Interesting posts. My thought is that you consider exactly your intention for camping most often and go with what matches that type of use best. Converting something can get expensive. After looking at that Revel. It is really nice. Especially if the goal is the road less traveled and off-grid. It looks so much like the very first RV I rented when overseas when I got hooked into all of this stuff! That drop-down bed is great. Get out wake up. Pull it up out of the way for garage- sweet! Multi-purpose designs are the best. It depends, rugged Safari configuration or glamor wagon. Trailers have their advantages. Actually, you do not have to unhitch each time and there is more room for sure.