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Old 07-28-2018, 10:33 PM   #221
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Installed CR70 on the lower 80% of the windshield and CR5 on the top 20%. CR40 on the front side windows. What an immediate difference, even up here in the Northeast! For you southern folks, front window tinting in NH is illegal without a medical waiver, which I am fortunate enough to have.

Does any state recognize the difference between 3M crystalline and 'normal' window tinting?

Other side benefits are I can dispense with the self-made head unit shade, and even more surprising is the rear-view camera (in place of the rear view mirror) actually functions both ways now - with less glare bouncing around the cab I can either focus on the rear view reflection or the actual rear video feed .

Welcome to the forum RC-AV8R!

Good choice on the window tint. Glad you like it.
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Old 07-29-2018, 05:48 AM   #222
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Installed CR70 on the lower 80% of the windshield and CR5 on the top 20%. CR40 on the front side windows. What an immediate difference, even up here in the Northeast! For you southern folks, front window tinting in NH is illegal without a medical waiver, which I am fortunate enough to have.

Does any state recognize the difference between 3M crystalline and 'normal' window tinting?

....
It's on-the-books illegal here in Texas without a medical waiver. Knowing that I WOULD qualify for a waiver, I got it done WITHOUT a waiver (which would have cost me a medical copay that I'd rather spend elsewhere).

FWIW, I had the state inspection done last week, and my inspection facility passed it without a second thought. I voluntarily disclosed that it is on the windshield (it's easily missed). Their opinion was that the law was written long before a product like 3M CR was invented. There's no significant reduction in visibility, and on that basis, it is not the kind of product that the law was intended to prohibit.

= Spirit of the law, not letter of the law. That's strictly a working opinion, of course. The next inspector down the road could say "nope". But I got my "pass".
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:22 AM   #223
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It's on-the-books illegal here in Texas without a medical waiver. Knowing that I WOULD qualify for a waiver, I got it done WITHOUT a waiver (which would have cost me a medical copay that I'd rather spend elsewhere).

FWIW, I had the state inspection done last week, and my inspection facility passed it without a second thought. I voluntarily disclosed that it is on the windshield (it's easily missed). Their opinion was that the law was written long before a product like 3M CR was invented. There's no significant reduction in visibility, and on that basis, it is not the kind of product that the law was intended to prohibit.

= Spirit of the law, not letter of the law. That's strictly a working opinion, of course. The next inspector down the road could say "nope". But I got my "pass".
What price range are we in to get this done?
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:30 AM   #224
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What price range are we in to get this done?
I don't know if I'll be envious of other replies, or produce envy with this reply, but the windshield (having a British wife I almost wrote windscreen) & front side windows set me back $605 (Boston).

Worth it.
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:52 AM   #225
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What price range are we in to get this done?
I paid $650, but I had to haggle to get it. Windshield and both cab windows. Prices in my area for that job are as high as $1,200.
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Old 07-29-2018, 07:12 AM   #226
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There is another thread out there that deals with the specifices of the different CR values as well as $$....if I remember right the $$ ranged from $600 - $1000 depending where one lives.

In Central Ohio you can get 3m tinting for $600!
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Old 07-29-2018, 07:15 AM   #227
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This should be a point of pride for all of us - don't allow misinformation to infiltrate this forum, Facebook, or any other venue. Make it a point to fact-check, or else don't repeat it, whatever it is. IMO the single biggest threat our society faces right now is the pervasive propaganda that goes by its 21st century handle "fake news".

It's not always easy. Because I've been discussing heat reduction and because it's the height of the summer, my Instagram has been popping AGW-related content (the internet reads all of our posts and responds across platforms with related content).

The white roof claims caught my attention because yesterday I started to deal with the single biggest environmental harm that has beset our Interstate in the past 4 years - the African dust storm that happened about two weeks ago. Regular Air Forums readers will remember that I Bus Kote'd our van roof last year (description here). Unfortunately I had left the van outdoors when the dust storm hit. They call it "dust" but I'm not sure what it was. It was highly oxidized, unlike anything I'd seen in Houston previously. When it hit my latex roof, it reacted chemically with the dew and made a huge mess. I can fix it, but what a PITA.

So when I saw the IG claims about white roofs, I dug a little deeper. Mildew, and also the occasional caustic mess delivered from overseas. Right now the tech does not exist for a proper white roof application which is reasonably maintenance-free (the existing building roof applications appear to be quite similar to the Bus Kote formula for vehicles). So it seems that everyone is guilty of telling half-truths on this particular issue.

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Old 07-29-2018, 01:37 PM   #228
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**MANY** German engineers were cussed out by me today. In the most colorful language imaginable.

Because seriously, WHO intentionally designs a vehicle cooling system to automatically start sucking in 99 degree air every 15 minutes?!?!?!?!?!

NO, this is not a surprise to me. We have put up with this nonsense for the past 4 years, but it was only today that we actually started quantifying it, because I wanted to make sure that there was nothing new that was wrong with the a/c, that wasn't already WRONG BY DESIGN.

With the a/c running for X number of minutes, X being around 20, we can get the cab down to about 80 degrees in these conditions. But that ambient will immediately soar if we miss our cue to punch that damned button once it automatically switches over to fresh air. And God help us if that button ever sticks open - we'll simply die, because there's NO WAY it can maintain as low as 80 if it has to use exterior air.

Seriously, someone in Germany, presumably with something that passes for a formal education, thought to themselves that this was a good idea:

"Oh, we COULD have the a/c continue to suck in 80 degree cab air and cool from THAT point, OR, we could instead design it to suck in 99 degree air from outside. Hmmmm, let me think that over for a minute... Of course! We need the 99 degree air! Because why on earth would we want any cooling system to have a 19 freakin' degree advantage on its intake temperature?!?! Dohhhh!!!"

I asked MB the Friday before last if they had a replacement or other strategy for dealing with this infernal switch. They said no, but they'd be as interested as hell if we manage to come up with a workaround.

Sigh... maybe I'm just 4 years older and more decrepit now, and the heat hurts more than it used to. My patience with this system is NOT what it used to be.

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Old 07-29-2018, 03:01 PM   #229
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I paid $650, but I had to haggle to get it. Windshield and both cab windows. Prices in my area for that job are as high as $1,200.
Thanks, I’ll be down at the docks waiting for my ship to come in...
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Old 07-29-2018, 03:39 PM   #230
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there was nothing new that was wrong with the a/c, that wasn't already WRONG BY DESIGN.

Seriously, someone in Germany, presumably with something that passes for a formal education, thought to themselves that this was a good idea:
INTERBLOG - Actually, HVAC engineers knew this design was not just a good idea, it was also designed with the occupants health in mind. Here's how it works:

Recirculating air already inside AI will cool it down quicker, and you are right, much faster than fresh air pulled in. But recirculated air comes with a health risk if you use it on this mode exclusively. Recirculated air has been breathed in/out by all the AI occupants. It has been extremely depleted of oxygen and replaced with moisture. That combo makes most people groggy, especially the young & elderly & health compromised, in hot weather. That can hinder concentration and safe driving, even for the best of drivers. Plus, in certain conditions, your windows can get foggy, decreasing visibility (i.e. if you get a sudden t-storm down pour in summer). Same reason people open windows when getting groggy while driving or to clear the insides of foggy windows - it's the fresh air/oxygen that relieves all these problems (groggy + foggy ). Fresh air is just that - fresh, highly oxygenated air, no second-hand moisture.

Don't get me wrong, I hate having to press that RECIRC button too. No argument from me there. I wish I had an option at least for a longer timer. But every car we now own (domestic & foreign) have this same function. I am with you on the sentiment of having to press the button every 15 min is a big PITA. But I think that if you weigh the positive/negative health considerations, you might see why it was designed this way.

You can actually easily modify any vehicle to run exclusively on recirculate mode. Just disable the motor/flapper that redirects air from inside/outside so it always pulls from inside. That is all the RECIRC button does. I remember my 1979 Pontiac Trans Am had a manual RECIRC mode and all it did was mechanically pull the flapper closed so no outside air came in. It would stay in RECIRC forever if I wanted to.
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Old 07-29-2018, 04:28 PM   #231
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INTERBLOG - Actually, HVAC engineers knew this design was not just a good idea, it was also designed with the occupants health in mind. Here's how it works:....
I've heard that line of logic, but I don't believe it. The T1N is a TIN CAN 1. I could be convinced of it, if someone were to show me hard data supporting the allegations. Or even back-of-envelope calculations (any of the engineers want to give it a go?). Show me measured O2 depletions in a massive-bodied, leaky T1N.

The intake split is designed to account for any depletions that may occur (recirc is not 100% recirc). In my daily driver, which IS very tight by comparison, there's a way to trick the computer to remain on infinite recirc. I've done this for the past 19 years running (two Siennas). I'da been dead long ago if there was anything to it.
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:17 PM   #232
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I've heard that line of logic, but I don't believe it. The T1N is a TIN CAN 1. I could be convinced of it, if someone were to show me hard data supporting the allegations. Or even back-of-envelope calculations (any of the engineers want to give it a go?). Show me measured O2 depletions in a massive-bodied, leaky T1N.



The intake split is designed to account for any depletions that may occur (recirc is not 100% recirc). In my daily driver, which IS very tight by comparison, there's a way to trick the computer to remain on infinite recirc. I've done this for the past 19 years running (two Siennas). I'da been dead long ago if there was anything to it.

I don't believe it either. This Recirculation limit is a Mercedes/Sprinter "thing". My Toyota and other VW cars I've owned have the same recirculation button, but it stay in that mode until you deselect it.

This is just another quirky Mercedes/Sprinter design feature.
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Old 07-29-2018, 06:54 PM   #233
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I've done this for the past 19 years running (two Siennas). I'da been dead long ago if there was anything to it.
INTERBLOG - I've used RECIRC a lot more than you for the past 40 yrs. myself & I am also not dead. I did not say you would die, I just said it has health risks if used exclusively & has positive/negative health considerations. I do not have my own data to support my "allegations" (I not wealthy enough to take your challenge & have my own data). But when I was being trained by HP (Silicon Valley) to do Site Prep for IT Environmental Controls, this eccentric prof. from Berkeley was our instructor. He always went off in a tangent about how indoor air (in homes & cars & computer rooms are hundreds of times more toxic than outside air). At that time (I was 22 then & from non-environmentally conscious Chicago) most of us fresh off college smart-a** engineers thought he was just another loony-environmental-zealot-tree-hugger from UC Berkeley spouting off non-sense. But through the years, we've come to realize indoor pollution is a real hazard. As homes & cars became more tight (my MB S500 has dual-pane windows as an example) indoor air can be truly worse than outdoor air if not addresed effectively. Even your self-described "leaky T1N" is so much more tight than a vehicle 10yrs prior, that air exchange becomes more important. This did not sit well with me, as I hate opening windows due to infiltration of dust & dirt & my allergies & the clean-freak in me. But the data convinced me.

An array of VOCs come from materials inside the car, notably carpeting, vinyl, plastics, leather, fabrics, foam cushions, adhesives, and sealants, particularly in new cars and in hot weather (heat helps release the chemicals and in some cases causes them to break down into toxic byproducts). Remember your plastic compartment in your Sienna that was deforming in this heat & someone posted in a diff thread their 3M Command strips fell off after the adhesives softened in this heat? Even the deodorizers and cleaning products we use in AI pollute indoor air, just as they do in homes. I think off-gassing is the tech term.

Studies that may provide data for you are below. If these don't convince you, I am afraid nothing will. Also, you don't need to trick the computer to accomplish your goal. You can disable RECIRC mechanically or you can use a switch/relay to manually control the single flapper valve at the heater/AC housing. MB will never tell you to do this for obvious reasons. I don't believe the flapper valve is connected to CANBUS-B or C (but best to check schema on this, I don't know for sure).

University of Berkeley
Pollution Inside Your Car
http://www.berkeleywellness.com/heal...nside-your-car

SAE International
CO2 buildup in vehicle cabins becoming a safety issue
https://www.sae.org/news/2017/04/co2...a-safety-issue

SAE International
Field Tests to Monitor Build-up of Carbon Dioxide in Vehicle Cabin with AC System Operating in Recirculation Mode for Improving Cabin IAQ and Safety
https://www.sae.org/publications/tec.../2008-01-0829/

CO2 Measurement Specialists CO2 Meter
High CO2 Levels in Your Car
https://www.co2meter.com/blogs/news/...ls-in-your-car

MIKE - It is not just a Mercedes Sprinter thing. Any late model vehicle with an AUTO climate control system will have it built in. I have a Ford F150 Harley Davidson Limited Ed, Ford Raptor, MB S500, MB E500, Nissan Quest, BMW 750IL and even a very old Chrysler Town Country that have the AUTO climate controls and they all shut off RECIRC between 15-20 min.
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Old 07-30-2018, 08:43 AM   #234
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.... Berkeley ....
I'm just going to leave that single word ^^ in the quote excerpt. That sums up our different positions and experiences.



In grad school I had a faculty adviser with a military hair cut. Whenever I'd wisecrack about some vendor having us by the short hairs because we couldn't get laboratory equipment, he'd give me a deadpan look and say, "It's all relative, you know." (i.e., as to where the shortest hairs actually are located on any given individual).



In an analogous fashion, Houston's air quality is ***SO BAD*** that I don't think I'd make it down the freeway without recirc.

How much opportunity for dispersion do you reckon exists on a TWENTY-SIX lane subtropical dead-air freeway which is routinely so congested that it's stop-and-go for miles?!

Answer: NONE. I roll up my windows, double-check recirc, and wisely conclude that anything IN HERE pales in comparison to the toxic severity of what is OUT THERE.

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Old 07-30-2018, 10:02 AM   #235
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I'm going to take it from this post that in late October when I have to travel from SE New Mexico to the Mississippi coast that via Dallas would be a better option?
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Old 07-30-2018, 10:04 AM   #236
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...

SAE International
CO2 buildup in vehicle cabins becoming a safety issue
https://www.sae.org/news/2017/04/co2...a-safety-issue

SAE International
Field Tests to Monitor Build-up of Carbon Dioxide in Vehicle Cabin with AC System Operating in Recirculation Mode for Improving Cabin IAQ and Safety
https://www.sae.org/publications/tec.../2008-01-0829/


MIKE - It is not just a Mercedes Sprinter thing. Any late model vehicle with an AUTO climate control system will have it built in. I have a Ford F150 Harley Davidson Limited Ed, Ford Raptor, MB S500, MB E500, Nissan Quest, BMW 750IL and even a very old Chrysler Town Country that have the AUTO climate controls and they all shut off RECIRC between 15-20 min.
Alex - thanks for the info. Guess this issue is something Toyota wasn't/isn't worried about. But my Prius is an old 2001 model with AUTO climate control. Perhaps things have changed after the research your cited.
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Old 07-30-2018, 01:20 PM   #237
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I'm just going to leave that single word ^^ in the quote excerpt. That sums up our different positions and experiences.

MIKE - IMHO, I don't think it's any specific manufacturer or German engineers that care or don't care. It still all boils down to whether they are required by governing entities to install them and/or what the cost is. Should I go further than TPMS or no TPMS on certain Sprinter MY's? I have spent many years in 3rd world SE Asian countries when my mom was actively trading commodities between Phil. Hong Kong Japan Alaska & Chicago. You would have brand spankin' Toyotas running around without any of the safety features you consider very basic in the USA (at that time, i.e. ABS, parking brakes, 3rd brake lights, rear view mirrors, signal lights, side mirrors, etc.)

INTERBLOG - Actually I agree with you on the connotation of UC Berkeley. I am no fan of UC Berkeley. I was sent to UC Berkeley by HP, while an employee of HP, tuition paid by HP. This was not a choice but was part of OJT. The other half of HP OJT was done at Stanford University, again not my choice, besides I could not have afforded Stanford on my own. But I am a product of private school education from K-to-votech high school & then University of Illinois. But that has nothing to do with the underlying data.

But on the other hand, the other studies were done by SAE International, an international engineering association I have been a member of by virtue of my involvement in the Aerospace Industry when I was working for HP in So. Cal. SAE International is a global association of more than 128,000 engineers and related technical experts in the aerospace, automotive and commercial-vehicle industries.

The other was by CO2Meter, Inc. a Florida based business specializing in the design and manufacturing of gas detection and monitoring devices – mainly CO2. Their biggest current clients are Northrop Grumman, Los Alamos National Labs (USDE), Texas Instruments, Honeywell, Carrier, USDA, and NASA. LB_3 ought to be familiar with this company as they were involved in the developement of the CozIR CO2 sensor used in the ISS (the best example of confined space with 100% recirculated air & elevated CO2).
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Similar sensors (though much cheaper)are now being installed in cars. As part of Automatic Climate Control systems, when CO2 goes above a certain threshold, it triggers the system to bring in fresh outside air (FOA).

The EPA’s short term CO2 exposure limit is 3% (15mins) and a maximum exposure of 4% in the breathing zone. Is this a coincidence that your RECIRC shuts off around 15 mins? Blame the EPA, not the German engineers. LB_3 can confirm this - NASA even had a stricter maximum threshold - NASA had set a long-duration spacecraft maximum allowable CO2 concentration of ONLY 0.7% (similar to submarines), in order to have minimal impact on the crew. So if NASA & US Navy considers 0.7% CO2 concentration their MAX limit for safety, and EPA accepts 4% (almost 6X more than NASA) but yet you are willing to risk more? By reference, see table below:
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Enough of the techie stuff - the numbers are boring, but you did ask for hard data. So back down to earth

If you read through all the articles/studies that I referenced (UCB included) you would notice that none of them advocate using either FOA or RECIRC mode exclusively. The example they gave is your exact situation in Houston. They all say use RECIRC to increase speed of cooling or when stuck in traffic or when fumes are in front of you. Then once moving, use FOA to replenish oxygen in cabin air. The key to this is to realize you need both modes for your comfort & health. Both RECIRC & FOA modes have positive/negative health & comfort considerations

OK, now I have said all I can to try and convince you on what I consider a healthy alternative. Now, I can show you how to accomplish your initial MB dealer request. YouTube video below of how to completely disable your recirculate flapper/actuator/arm on T1N

https://youtu.be/mohdU_lgyNw
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:09 AM   #238
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Humorous time-out here...

Heat is relative, up to a point. Temperatures in northeastern Nova Scotia are topping out at around 85 this week, and people here canít cope with the likes of that extremity. Businesses begin shutting down. Iím zero for two on gaining access to one of my favorite restaurants thus far. If I go tomorrow before noon, maybe they will be open.

THIS, at 85 F. With a stiff breeze. With commercial ventilation fans in restaurant kitchens. That is still too hot for ďsafeĒ work in this part of the world. Meanwhile Iím luxuriating in the balmy conditions as Iím working for most of the day in a Sprinter.

:-)


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Old 08-07-2018, 10:15 AM   #239
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What's the temp in the sprinter?
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:32 AM   #240
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With back doors and slider open it doesnít really get over 85. Thereís a sea breeze.
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