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Old 08-29-2017, 01:00 PM   #21
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Just curious

So, looking at the re wire pictures, I had to look behind my fusion to compare. Snapping of the face plate was easy enough but a little scary as I was afraid it might break. It does cover the whole middle panel so it is wired to the bottom row of switches. Anyway, after unscrewing the four screws and lifting the fusion out of the dash, the first thing I noticed was it seems pretty hot although I think it is off. It does have a built in vent fan but it is not on. Second thing is mine really can't be turned around and placed on the dash as suggested because the wires are to short and tight to move that much. Next thing was I compared the red and yellow wires in my unit to the pictures and noticed the red wire is plugged into the end of the radio plug, the yellow wire is beside it, so its already the reverse of the picture provided. Not at all sure if that means it's ok or not.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:56 PM   #22
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It seems fair to say that the instructions provided by Mr. Puckett to tk.1217 are of the same quality and attention to detail as the owner's manual.

As busb2 observes, the faceplate covers the entire center dash. It can be removed easily by pulling it away at the top and then gently working downwards from side to side. The two wire connectors for the switches at the bottom can be detached by wiggling and firmly pulling the black plastic connectors; they have small protrusions on the top and bottom that engage with the housing.

By the way, you should switch off coach power and disconnect the chassis power above the accelerator pedal before digging in.

On my vehicle neither the Fusion unit nor the HVAC panel were secured with screws, they just slide out, and are only held in by the faceplate. Can anyone provide specs or photos of the type of screws that should be there ?

At first it seems that the wires connecting the Fusion are too short to pull it out and set it atop the dash, but if you reach inside the dash and ease the bundles of wires upward, there is sufficient slack.

Like busb2, the red and yellow wires on my unit are reversed from the photo provided in Mr. Puckett's instructions. And instead of the blue crimp connectors in his photos, on my unit they have detachable connectors. They are joined red-to-red and yellow-to-yellow, contrary to the audio/video schematic in the owner's manual.

What to do now . . . At present I have the functionality that I want - the Fusion operates either from coach power or from chassis power alone when the ignition is on - so I'm reluctant to reverse the reds and yellows. I'm thinking that if I introduce a switch into the red line, that will solve the chassis battery drain, while preserving the existing functionality.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:48 PM   #23
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Further to my post above, Mr. Puckett's instructions refer to a loose yellow wire coming from a black harness connector. There are no loose wires on my vehicle in this location, adding further doubt to the applicability of Mr. Puckett's instructions provided for a 2016 Grand Tour to a 2017 Lounge EXT.

The terminal block on the back of the Fusion includes speaker wires (green, purple, white and grey); grounds (black); and an antenna connection (blue). The audio/video schematic hints that orange might relate to illumination. By process of elimination, and consistent with the schematic, this suggests that the remaining red and yellow wires provide power to the Fusion.

The red wire runs through a connector into another red wire coming from the black harness connector.

The yellow wire runs through connectors and splices into a succession of three more yellow wires of varying gauge, then into the black harness connector. At one point a purple wire is spliced in. The purple wire is then joined to another yellow wire and a blue/white wire, both of which disappear to parts unknown.

The audio/video schematic indicates that a fused yellow wire coming from a terminal labeled "KI30 BAT. DIR." is joined to a purple/white wire from the chassis labeled "ignition sign."

From all this I now infer that the chassis battery is being drained through the yellow wire.
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:02 PM   #24
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Instructions provided were for my 2016 Grand Tour

I don't know if harness changed with the 2017's but it definitely worked for me.
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Old 08-29-2017, 04:06 PM   #25
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Don, my yellow and red wires are wired the same as you describe. I don't understand all of this, but after reading about all the chassis battery issues on the forum, I just installed a trickle charger permanently wired to the chassis battery since my unit is stored plugged in to power. I also want to keep the ability to use the fusion from either battery source so will probably just leave it as is for now.
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Old 08-29-2017, 08:15 PM   #26
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Further to my post above
.
.
From all this I now infer that the chassis battery is being drained through the yellow wire.
I just checked the installation manual for the Fusion. According to it, the red wire in the main wiring harness (the harness that has the speakers, etc) is for "constant" 12vdc and the yellow wire is for "switched" 12vdc. To me that says the red wire "should" go to the house batteries, and the yellow wire "should" go to the chassis battery (but is only "on" when the ignition is on). Trouble is, we can't trust the schematics so we need to figure out who's who......

Don, you already have your Fusion out of the dash. Can you pull the connector for the main wiring harness out of the back of the Fusion and see if the mating pins are removable? Typically they're slid into a channel that keeps them separate from the other pins and "click" into place and are held there by a little plastic tab. If yes, this should be quick.

With the harness removed, you should be able to do 2 things: First, determine which of the 2 wires is truly the one that's switched (with the ignition off one should read 0 volts, that's the switched source...with luck it's the yellow one). Second, assuming the two wires are reversed per Jon's pictures, simply press on the little plastic release tabs (I use an awl and stick it down in between the tab and the pin), pop the two wires out, swap them around, and push them back into the correct positions. Viola. All done and you didn't have to cut anything. Just be sure to do this with ALL POWER OFF (so after you figure out which one is the switched power, be sure the ignition is off and pull the positive lead off the house batteries).

P.S. If you decide to try swapping the pins, don't get all ham fisted with the process. If you break the locking tabs or the connector, you're f'd.....
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Old 08-30-2017, 06:02 AM   #27
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Don, my yellow and red wires are wired the same as you describe. I don't understand all of this, but after reading about all the chassis battery issues on the forum, I just installed a trickle charger permanently wired to the chassis battery since my unit is stored plugged in to power. I also want to keep the ability to use the fusion from either battery source so will probably just leave it as is for now.
busb2, I think we can reasonably conclude that our Fusion units are wired properly. The red and yellow wires are the reverse of the Puckett instructions, and the functionality has been as intended. The only problem is the current drain killing our chassis battery, which appears to be from the Fusion.

A supplemental charger is not going to cure that. When plugged into shore power, both chassis and coach batteries seem to charge evenly on my vehicle. The problem arises when I park the vehicle untethered and unused for a few days. Naturally I switch off the main disconnect for the coach power, but unless I also disconnect the chassis power above the accelerator pedal, my chassis battery will be dead within days.
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Old 08-30-2017, 06:25 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by FlyFishinRVr View Post
I just checked the installation manual for the Fusion. According to it, the red wire in the main wiring harness (the harness that has the speakers, etc) is for "constant" 12vdc and the yellow wire is for "switched" 12vdc. To me that says the red wire "should" go to the house batteries, and the yellow wire "should" go to the chassis battery (but is only "on" when the ignition is on). Trouble is, we can't trust the schematics so we need to figure out who's who......

Don, you already have your Fusion out of the dash. Can you pull the connector for the main wiring harness out of the back of the Fusion and see if the mating pins are removable? Typically they're slid into a channel that keeps them separate from the other pins and "click" into place and are held there by a little plastic tab. If yes, this should be quick.

With the harness removed, you should be able to do 2 things: First, determine which of the 2 wires is truly the one that's switched (with the ignition off one should read 0 volts, that's the switched source...with luck it's the yellow one). Second, assuming the two wires are reversed per Jon's pictures, simply press on the little plastic release tabs (I use an awl and stick it down in between the tab and the pin), pop the two wires out, swap them around, and push them back into the correct positions. Viola. All done and you didn't have to cut anything. Just be sure to do this with ALL POWER OFF (so after you figure out which one is the switched power, be sure the ignition is off and pull the positive lead off the house batteries).

P.S. If you decide to try swapping the pins, don't get all ham fisted with the process. If you break the locking tabs or the connector, you're f'd.....
Attached are photos of the connector to the Fusion. Some connector types have openings that allow you to release the spring catch on the pins, but not this one. I don't see any non-destructive way to pull the pins. Doesn't matter, though, as my vehicle has bullet connectors on the red and yellow wires that allow easy disconnection.

As I remarked above, I don't think that reversed power connections as addressed in the Puckett instructions is our problem. Your review of the Fusion installation manual seems to corroborate that. I am therefore very reluctant to try swapping the red and yellow connections, for fear of damaging the Fusion.

This morning's experiment was to disconnect the yellow wire, to see whether the Fusion will operate solely off the red (presumably the connection to coach power). It would not. So while it remains possible that adding a switch into the yellow wire could stop the current drain from the chassis battery, it would disable use of the Fusion with the coach power on but ignition off, which is not the functionality I want.

I think I need to learn how to use my multimeter, and start hunting specifically for the chassis battery drain. The yellow wire to the Fusion is suspect #1.
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Old 08-30-2017, 09:46 AM   #29
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Attached are photos of the connector to the Fusion. Some connector types have openings that allow you to release the spring catch on the pins, but not this one. I don't see any non-destructive way to pull the pins. Doesn't matter, though, as my vehicle has bullet connectors on the red and yellow wires that allow easy disconnection.

As I remarked above, I don't think that reversed power connections as addressed in the Puckett instructions is our problem. Your review of the Fusion installation manual seems to corroborate that. I am therefore very reluctant to try swapping the red and yellow connections, for fear of damaging the Fusion.

This morning's experiment was to disconnect the yellow wire, to see whether the Fusion will operate solely off the red (presumably the connection to coach power). It would not. So while it remains possible that adding a switch into the yellow wire could stop the current drain from the chassis battery, it would disable use of the Fusion with the coach power on but ignition off, which is not the functionality I want.

I think I need to learn how to use my multimeter, and start hunting specifically for the chassis battery drain. The yellow wire to the Fusion is suspect #1.
Thanks for the photos.

So, your thinking is your coach is actually wired correctly and switched power is already on the yellow wire with constant power on the red?

Also, you pulled the switched power (yellow) and attempted to turn on the Fusion via the Main Disconnect switch and it refused to turn on?

Just want to make sure I have those scenarios correct because if I do, then I'm confused.....again.
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Old 08-30-2017, 10:17 AM   #30
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So, your thinking is your coach is actually wired correctly and switched power is already on the yellow wire with constant power on the red?
Yes. I've not definitively confirmed that with a meter, but this belief is consistent with the Fusion's proper operation as delivered, the audio/video schematic, your analysis of the Fusion installation manual and the reversed position of the wires from the defective connection shown in the Puckett instructions kindly provided by tk.1217.

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Also, you pulled the switched power (yellow) and attempted to turn on the Fusion via the Main Disconnect switch and it refused to turn on?
Yes.

Vehicle electrical systems have moved far beyond those of the 1940s - 60s with which I'm familiar. In that era, about all that mattered was whether a wire was hot or not. In this case I suspect that the yellow wire carries some lower voltage or some type of powerline signal that the Fusion requires to activate. Definitely beyond my competence.

I still think that the unacceptable power drain that kills our chassis battery within days originates in the Fusion. I now suspect that this is a design error, rather than some type of assembly error. Maybe there was an erroneous presumption that the solar panel would offset the drain ?

Adding a switch to the yellow wire might be an effective blunt force solution, but given the other adverse effects of that I'd like to gain more certainty about the cause of the chassis power drain before starting surgery.
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:19 PM   #31
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Yes.
OK, thanks.

As I said before, my Fusion works correctly (ignition on turns Fusion on OR Main Disconnect on turns Fusion on). Like you, I'm just looking for a way to cut the drain on my chassis battery. I agree, the chassis battery going flat in < a week is very likely due to the Fusion, we just need to figure out "why" and "how" and then formulate a plan on how to reduce or remove it.

Personally, I think it's a function of how the Fusion works vs. some sort of wiring mishap. I don't think the designers were particularly concerned with how much power the Fusion pulled while "sleeping" because they figured it was going to be connected to a 100Ah (or more) power source so why worry. Plus, the Airstream manual clearly states that if you're going to park your coach "for an extended period of time", you should disconnect the chassis battery at the quick connect down by the accelerator.

Where things get a little sideways is what is considered an "extended period of time"? To me, that's a month, not a week. If you consider that most people will only use their "RV" on weekends at most, and more likely every 2-3 weekends, then having a device kill the starter battery in less than a week is a big "oops" IMO. This sort of harkens back to the day when most people had travel trailers and it was standard operating procedure to disconnect the battery when you got home from a camping trip and toss it in the garage on a tender until next time. With the advent of "RV's", people started getting away from this routine, and now with advanced electronics and the associated sophisticated wiring schemes to power it all, I think people are getting caught out.

Well, enough on the "how we got here" ramble. I think the fix is still to put in a switch and cut power to the little beast while the coach isn't being used. Either that, or just pull the quick connect for the chassis battery like the manual tells us to do. I just don't think we should have to do the latter, so I'm still keen on finding the right approach to the former. A dash switch with a little LED is a more elegant solution in my mind, so it's staying on this winter's To Do list for my coach.
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Old 08-30-2017, 12:50 PM   #32
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Agree with your perspective, and the operating behavior of the Fusion gives good reason to suspect that it's the culprit, but a new thread today mentions another potential cause, a faulty relay on the house side (http://www.airforums.com/forums/f240...in-172094.html).

It would be pretty easy to interrupt the yellow wire with a dash switch, but I'm going to first try to confirm the source of the chassis power drain. Will report back if I learn anything.
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Old 09-01-2017, 01:42 AM   #33
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OK, thanks.

As I said before, my Fusion works correctly (ignition on turns Fusion on OR Main Disconnect on turns Fusion on). Like you, I'm just looking for a way to cut the drain on my chassis battery. I agree, the chassis battery going flat in < a week is very likely due to the Fusion, we just need to figure out "why" and "how" and then formulate a plan on how to reduce or remove it.

Personally, I think it's a function of how the Fusion works vs. some sort of wiring mishap. I don't think the designers were particularly concerned with how much power the Fusion pulled while "sleeping" because they figured it was going to be connected to a 100Ah (or more) power source so why worry. Plus, the Airstream manual clearly states that if you're going to park your coach "for an extended period of time", you should disconnect the chassis battery at the quick connect down by the accelerator.

Where things get a little sideways is what is considered an "extended period of time"? To me, that's a month, not a week. If you consider that most people will only use their "RV" on weekends at most, and more likely every 2-3 weekends, then having a device kill the starter battery in less than a week is a big "oops" IMO. This sort of harkens back to the day when most people had travel trailers and it was standard operating procedure to disconnect the battery when you got home from a camping trip and toss it in the garage on a tender until next time. With the advent of "RV's", people started getting away from this routine, and now with advanced electronics and the associated sophisticated wiring schemes to power it all, I think people are getting caught out.

Well, enough on the "how we got here" ramble. I think the fix is still to put in a switch and cut power to the little beast while the coach isn't being used. Either that, or just pull the quick connect for the chassis battery like the manual tells us to do. I just don't think we should have to do the latter, so I'm still keen on finding the right approach to the former. A dash switch with a little LED is a more elegant solution in my mind, so it's staying on this winter's To Do list for my coach.


Hey All,

I have to chuckle ... this is still going on?

When I posted my "quiz" post 7-8 months ago - I did so out of complete frustration with frequent dead chassis battery experiences. My sense is the wiring setup from Airstream was the originating issue, but the Garmin Fusion is flawed as well.

I know I've mentioned this before, but I've enjoyed 6+ months of happy AS usage "after" installing this kill switch. My dealer, AS Adventures in Portland completed this for me at a cost of $80 iirc. Since install of the kill switch...it's been pure joy for me.

Highly recommended solution, even if my AS tech at the dealer suggested it wasn't necessary. I'm very happy to have the switch - because I can isolate / eliminate another draw from house or chassis batteries manually.

No problems at all since install.

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Old 09-01-2017, 05:16 AM   #34
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Hey All,

I have to chuckle ... this is still going on?

When I posted my "quiz" post 7-8 months ago - I did so out of complete frustration with frequent dead chassis battery experiences. My sense is the wiring setup from Airstream was the originating issue, but the Garmin Fusion is flawed as well.

I know I've mentioned this before, but I've enjoyed 6+ months of happy AS usage "after" installing this kill switch. My dealer, AS Adventures in Portland completed this for me at a cost of $80 iirc. Since install of the kill switch...it's been pure joy for me.

Highly recommended solution, even if my AS tech at the dealer suggested it wasn't necessary. I'm very happy to have the switch - because I can isolate / eliminate another draw from house or chassis batteries manually.

No problems at all since install.

Attachment 293773Attachment 293774Attachment 293775
Appreciate the post and the photos, but what is it that your switch "kills" - the Fusion unit ?

If so, does it render the Fusion totally inoperable, or can it still be powered off the coach batteries ?

If it renders the Fusion totally inoperable, are audio settings, destinations, etc. retained ?

Which wire does the switch interrupt ?

Would very much like to better understand this, as your dealer is about 3000 miles from me so can't go there myself. Thanks !
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Old 09-01-2017, 12:57 PM   #35
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Hey All,

I have to chuckle ... this is still going on?
Thanks for popping in. I thought I read where one member here already had a switch installed but I couldn't remember who it was.

So yeah, this is still going on mainly because we're an inquisitive bunch and want to know the "why's" of this issue as much as we want a solution. And now with this new data point from Airstream saying "yeah, we've mixed up the wires on some coaches and here's the fix", it just adds to the desire to really know WTH is going on and what's the best way to deal with it. At the moment we have your switch (but no info. on how to install it, hopefully you can provide that) and Airstream's doc that shows swapping wires to the Fusion, but no definitive description of "OK, here's what's been going and why people's chassis batteries have been dying, and here's what to do about it". Maybe your answers to Don's questions will get us a little closer to that.....
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Old 09-09-2017, 03:08 AM   #36
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Thanks for popping in. I thought I read where one member here already had a switch installed but I couldn't remember who it was.

So yeah, this is still going on mainly because we're an inquisitive bunch and want to know the "why's" of this issue as much as we want a solution. And now with this new data point from Airstream saying "yeah, we've mixed up the wires on some coaches and here's the fix", it just adds to the desire to really know WTH is going on and what's the best way to deal with it. At the moment we have your switch (but no info. on how to install it, hopefully you can provide that) and Airstream's doc that shows swapping wires to the Fusion, but no definitive description of "OK, here's what's been going and why people's chassis batteries have been dying, and here's what to do about it". Maybe your answers to Don's questions will get us a little closer to that.....




Totally understand your point(s).

When I started the "quiz" thread several months ago I was hoping for the "collective" to figure out the problem. I'm not well versed in this area (electrical). I never liked the fact that the main power switch has to be in the "on" position to charge batteries when the coach is plugged in. And I really didn't like the fact that the Fusion (Garmin) draws power 24/7 regardless of whether the soft switch is on or off.

Which Wire?

I assume the "kill switch" is cutting off power just before it arrives to the Fusion - judging by proximity to the unit).

All I know is I didn't trust the factory solution, and I'd had enough dead battery experiences. I just assumed the problem was the Fusion system power draw. So, I asked for a simple cut off / kill switch which would isolate the Fusion from any electrical source in the chassis and coach. My dealer second guessed my need for this switch, after the factory re-wire. Now, they don't hear me whining about dead batteries anymore. They are happy.

$123 - problem solved

Kelly is my Airstream tech, Lora is my Airstream Service manager (both amazing) and Airstream Adventures in Gladstone Oregon (Portland) is the dealer.
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Old 09-09-2017, 11:15 AM   #37
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Totally understand your point(s).

When I started the "quiz" thread several months ago I was hoping for the "collective" to figure out the problem. I'm not well versed in this area (electrical). I never liked the fact that the main power switch has to be in the "on" position to charge batteries when the coach is plugged in. And I really didn't like the fact that the Fusion (Garmin) draws power 24/7 regardless of whether the soft switch is on or off.

Which Wire?
Which wire indeed.

I looked at the Fusion installation guide and there appear to be TWO wires that are possible targets for dissection: one labeled "Switched" power and the other labeled "Constant" power. We have anecdotal evidence from Don that disconnecting the Switched power input results in a non-operative Fusion, but without putting a current clamp on the Constant wire, we don't know if it's still drawing power or not. All we know is it won't turn on. This might be due to some logic within the Fusion that says "stay in standby until the Switched input goes high". This is the kind of data we need to really figure what's going on.

Another interesting datapoint is when I turn my house power on and the Fusion kicks on, I can hold my Main Batt button down on the tank monitor panel and watch my power drain by 10'ths, about 1 tick every second. Switching to the Aux Batt readout, it stays steady. If I switch my house power off (which turns the Fusion off), the Main Batt drain stops. To me, this says my coach is actually wired "wrong" and my Fusion is pulling ALL power from the chassis battery, regardless of how it's been switched on (main cutoff or ignition). This would also account for my chassis battery drain over the course of a week while the coach is parked. Since the Fusion is never really "off", it just sits there sucking my chassis battery dry. Thankfully my solar panel can more than keep up with this parasitic drain, but that only works when the sun is shining....

Unless someone from Fusion Entertainment wants to come onto this forum and describe the theory of operation for this unit, I think this sort of testing is our best path forward. Hopefully I can get to this once the rainy weather sets in (what NorCal calls "winter"... ). I'll be looking at moving my Constant power to my house batteries (I assume it's currently connected to my chassis battery), and figuring out if putting a manual cutoff on the Switched input will indeed prevent the Fusion from pulling power from the Constant input. If so, $30 in parts and a few hours of my time should have that sorted and done.
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Old 09-10-2017, 07:23 AM   #38
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In the next week I hope to find time to experiment further. Initial focus will be on testing the amperage draw through the yellow wire under varying scenarios, also unplugging from shore power and periodically noting the chassis battery voltage with the yellow wire connected and disconnected.

FlyFishinRVr, would be interested to learn whether we have the same wiring configuration once you pull your Fusion unit. Plainly there was a difference between between tk.1217's 2016 Grand Tour and my 2017 Lounge.
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Old 09-25-2017, 01:09 PM   #39
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Of course attempting to measure the current draw proved more complicated than I'd hoped. The main complication is that the Fusion unit seems to operate in many different modes. Disconnecting wires to measure amperage sometimes causes the unit to reboot or apparently change modes. I don't have a clamp-on meter and my knowledge is limited.

After trying different permutations I'm at least confident that the yellow wire connects to chassis power and the red wire to coach power. Both connections are needed for the Fusion unit to function.

With the display on, the draw on coach power (the red wire) is about 1 amp. This increases only to about 1.75 A when the radio is playing.

In many instances I cannot detect any current in the yellow wire. At most, I saw a steady draw of about 0.115 A when the unit appeared to be 'sleeping'.

Is this enough to kill the chassis battery in a few days ?
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Old 09-25-2017, 03:56 PM   #40
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chassis power to Fusion

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Originally Posted by don000 View Post

In many instances I cannot detect any current in the yellow wire. At most, I saw a steady draw of about 0.115 A when the unit appeared to be 'sleeping'.

Is this enough to kill the chassis battery in a few days ?
Nope. The chassis battery is pretty big at something like 95Ahr. With a 100mA draw, it would take 10hrs to pull 1A, so about 500hrs to hit the dreaded 50% mark. Thatís about 3 weeks.

Was there any draw on the red wire while sleeping?
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