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zlee · 01-08-2012, 12:02 AM

Hummm, that's odd, because I'm pretty sure she said that there's a diff between chronic and acute kidney failure.

Crusty · 01-08-2012, 08:10 AM

You're probably describing CRI (Chronic Renal Insufficiency) rather than CRF (Chronic Renal Failure) which is a condition where the kidneys still function but not enough to meet the body's requirements rather than complete kidney failure. A regular flushing with additional IM fluids helps to rid the body of excessive waste accumulation and this can extend a kitty's quality life by years.

Buttercup · 01-10-2012, 07:55 AM

From all I have read online, Renal Insufficiency is synonymous with CKD/CRF except that insufficiency is sometimes used to described milder cases of kidney disease. I think I have Googled terabytes of stuff on this... Maybe too much stuff.

http://www.iris-kidney.com/pdf/IRIS%...20of%20CKD.pdf
Tanya's Comprehensive Guide to Feline Chronic Kidney Disease - How Bad Is It?
(I know its Wikipedia but.....Renal failure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
chronic renal insufficiency VS chronic kidney disease

Crusty · 01-10-2012, 10:38 AM

I think that's right - the medical profession makes a distinction for some reason that's not clear to me. The way that I see it, if your kidneys don't clean your blood enough for you to stay alive then they've failed. It may just be some sly double speak to make you feel better about a tragic situation and an attempt to manipulate you into heroic measures (though I didn't need it - my little buddy was my best friend so I did everything possible). The medical profession seems to base this distinction on the consistent BUN levels measured in the blood tests.

Buttercup · 01-10-2012, 01:06 PM

yea - a measure of the impending doom that awaits you.... Has not completely failed you but certainly heading that way.... Our little man's levels started heading south sometime after a tooth extraction - prior to which, he had stage 2 levels, about what you might expect from a 16 year old cat.

I am content that I /we can treat him and let him have a few more months/years of sitting in the window under impossibly hot sun. But also, now that we know what we are dealing with, when we have to do what is inevitable, I think we will be better prepared to deal with it.

Crusty · 01-10-2012, 08:19 PM

My little buddy developed CRI at age 15 and by giving him IM fluids 3 times a week I was able to give him 3 more quality years before cardiomyopathy finally took him. His BUN numbers were in the normal range just days before.

Buttercup · 01-11-2012, 01:02 PM

IM - not Sub-q? That must have hurt the poor fellow... We have our little IV bag, hose and a box on fresh needles. We even have a Sharps container to put the used needles.

I warm the bag on the heater so it isn't too cold. 150 ml later - he is done and ready for his kitty treats - which he gets for being a trooper.

Crusty · 01-11-2012, 02:14 PM

Sorry, I meant Sub-q - not really a medical professional here. I used the wall lamp by the door of my AS as a bag warmer - using one, two or three bulbs as required by the air temp inside. My kitty always got lots of petting while he was getting his fluids so he didn't mind the needle stick at all once I got proficient at it.

TerraYacht · 01-11-2012, 02:41 PM

Wow, never expected to see this big part of our lives on the AS portals. We had 2 flame-point Siamese brothers that started showing CRF signs a few years ago. We lost one last summer when his kidneys just shut down 100%--no output, but his previously sicker brother is doing fine right now. We are doing 100cc subQ every 2 and half days. We put the bag in bowl of hot water & warm it to about 103 degrees. We found some thinwall needles with flow like an 18 gauge but they are 19’s so a little smaller: Sam still doesn’t like being stuck. He was getting a quarter of a Pepcid twice a day but now gets Carafate 3x/day that coats his entire digestive tract. Issue is you need an hour after dosing before giving other med’s. Some kidney med’s are not good for the pancreas. Sam developed triaditis, inflamed kidneys, pancreas & digestives so good balance in important. He gets Royal Canin low protein but we are having UCDavis vet’s do a custom diet in consultation with our vet. Sam has also had some acupuncture that helped. Now we (I mean my wife Andrea) weigh his food so we can track his intake as well as his body weight, along with various med’s. Sam’s BUN/creatinine were half again higher than the top of the range last year and now, puzzling to the vet, are in the middle of the normal range! We also track his blood sugar periodically because he has had some pancreatitis, like just last week, that needs prednisolone to clear up. The key is: Sam is happy, not uncomfortable.

We have not taken him with us in the TerraYacht and that is a showstopper: we cannot leave him so we just started taking him in the coach, turned on the engine, this weekend is a short drive, and if he is okay then we can take him with us on overnights as soon as we figure out where to put the cat box so I don’t step in it at night!
We’ve been in the kidney “hobby” for a few years ago, glad to share more info, just send a PM.

Buttercup · 01-11-2012, 04:05 PM

Oh, whew!! - Intramuscular would be painful I am sure. Whew! Heck, our little buddy doesn't like doing our routine at all. I can see it in his eyes - he is saying "Why Me?" I have seen videos of people doing sub-q's online where the cat just sits there! How do they do that?!? I cab pet our boy, but he still has "the look" and tries to get away. Sometimes he succeeds and I am left holding a squirting needle. It squirts an impressive distance!

I use 20 gauge needles because I pity that he has to do this. It takes a little longer but I am hoping the stick is less for him. In the Airstream, its hard to hang the bag high enough - i might have to invent a thing to compress the bag to increase the head height artificially. If I make it out of clear Lexan or something like that i would still be able to see how much juice is left.

One tip - for anybody reading this - don't be like me and try to warm the bag in the microwave....I thought that there would be enough mass there to absorb the energy and the liquid in the hose would not boil.... I was wrong, the hose boiled within seconds and went "pop". I need to reexamine wave propagation properties within an enclosed cavity. I have a book on that somewhere.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crusty

Sorry, I meant Sub-q - not really a medical professional here. I used the wall lamp by the door of my AS as a bag warmer - using one, two or three bulbs as required by the air temp inside. My kitty always got lots of petting while he was getting his fluids so he didn't mind the needle stick at all once I got proficient at it.

Buttercup · 01-11-2012, 04:29 PM

You are sure doing a lot more than we are. We have taken Toro in for Acupuncture as well. Our vet practices traditional Chinese medicine to some extent so recommended some home cooked recipes based on his chi. I checked the phosphorus loads of what she recommended and they are fine so we go with it.

I would be interested to see what your BUN/Creatinine levels are from your last test just out of curiosity. I take it that your little man has some digestive issues? Ours did and we never understood why he puked all the time, or how that upsets his body chemistry when he does. Of course now that we know, we know what to do for him when he does puke. One trick we did do that helped immediately was to puree his food in one of those bullet things. Before we started home cooking food, we used the Royal Canin cans and dry food. I would put 2 cans in the grinder and also add some water and make it just thick enough to scoop into a bowl. The extra water doesn't hurt. But by grinding the food like that, he had an immediate improvement in what he can hold down. It seemed that the chunks of food, which he could not chew really, would upset his stomach. Grinding was the trick! You may want to try that... You might be able to reduce the meds a little if he tolerate it better, which is always good.

I don't weigh Toro's food yet, but I suspect the day may come where I have to when ge gets back up in higher levels. Right now I just guess about half volume of quality protein and half of non-protein, mostly the pumpkin mix. I toss in chitosan-based phosphorus binder powder (but calcium carbonate will also work). I can't get him to eat greens, asparagus, broccoli, etc - are all natural binders but Toro doesn't like them and snubs the food. Pumpkin it is....I also add potassium - a dash with every meal, nothing scientific. Some Salmon oil, maybe some Nutritional Yeast for flavor and for some B vitamins. Nothing I do is measured.... He is gaining weight with each vet visit. He used to be 9 pounds at his peak, he got down to 6 at his worse, and he is back to 7 pounds, 2 oz. now.

The fact that your little mans levels are lower then before is a really good sign. I think you must be doing all the right things! Personally, it feels good to be doing this for our cats. It is no real work at all to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerraYacht

Wow, never expected to see this big part of our lives on the AS portals. We had 2 flame-point Siamese brothers that started showing CRF signs a few years ago. We lost one last summer when his kidneys just shut down 100%--no output, but his previously sicker brother is doing fine right now. We are doing 100cc subQ every 2 and half days. We put the bag in bowl of hot water & warm it to about 103 degrees. We found some thinwall needles with flow like an 18 gauge but they are 19’s so a little smaller: Sam still doesn’t like being stuck. He was getting a quarter of a Pepcid twice a day but now gets Carafate 3x/day that coats his entire digestive tract. Issue is you need an hour after dosing before giving other med’s. Some kidney med’s are not good for the pancreas. Sam developed triaditis, inflamed kidneys, pancreas & digestives so good balance in important. He gets Royal Canin low protein but we are having UCDavis vet’s do a custom diet in consultation with our vet. Sam has also had some acupuncture that helped. Now we (I mean my wife Andrea) weigh his food so we can track his intake as well as his body weight, along with various med’s. Sam’s BUN/creatinine were half again higher than the top of the range last year and now, puzzling to the vet, are in the middle of the normal range! We also track his blood sugar periodically because he has had some pancreatitis, like just last week, that needs prednisolone to clear up. The key is: Sam is happy, not uncomfortable.

We have not taken him with us in the TerraYacht and that is a showstopper: we cannot leave him so we just started taking him in the coach, turned on the engine, this weekend is a short drive, and if he is okay then we can take him with us on overnights as soon as we figure out where to put the cat box so I don’t step in it at night!
We’ve been in the kidney “hobby” for a few years ago, glad to share more info, just send a PM.

Crusty · 01-12-2012, 07:07 AM

I made a loop out of fishing line which went around one of the hinges on the cabinet door above the settee, and then I could hang the bag from it by sticking the loop through the bag slot and then a pencil through the loop as a pin to hold the bag. That way I had as much elevation as I could get for the bag while we had our sessions on the settee table.

I also bought a little mortar and pestle used for spices and I would grind up some Pepcid tablets and then mix the powder with a carefully measured amount of water to arrive at a known concentration solution which could be given with an eye dropper and that proved to be much easier and more reliable than trying to administer pills.

Buttercup · 01-12-2012, 11:51 AM

That would work well - but for my needles (they are 22 gauge, I was wrong) they are so fine that that would not be high enough. I think for the road T will have to go with 20 or even 18 like the vet gave us.

I use a cheap spice grinder to grind an entire bottle of pills at one time. Its a little dusty but works well.