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Old 08-24-2004, 02:09 AM   #1
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Angry Fourteen...

Hi ALL....
It is NOT My intention 2 upset anyone at all....My Wife told Me last nite abt wot She had read on The DIBB site...abt FOURTEEN of the RESCUE DOGS from the 911 Outrage, have sadly DIED....in a mttr of months, Now it appears 2B some kind of CANCER, due 2 the DUST, Aviation fuel, & LOTS 'n LOTS of other polutents in the air at the time of the search...
An investigation IS under way, but I jus wonder IF any HUMANS R 2 suffer in the future ! ! ! ..... due 2 this awful act of Terror...
I R sorry if I set alarm bells ringing, But I believe in...IF it's out there...WE have a RIGHT 2 KN...Chris.....
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Old 08-24-2004, 03:33 AM   #2
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What snuffed out 14, 9/11 sniffer dogs?
New York August 23, 2004 1:20:26 PM IST

A new study by researchers at the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, has found that an alarming number of WTC search and rescue dogs have died in the past few months, a finding that they believe could have important implications for the people who were included in the rescue operations at ground zero.

According to the New York Daily News, researchers doing further research in order to ascertain if the dogs died because they were exposed to toxic rubble. They have found that as many as 14 dogs have died in the recent past, eight out of whom died of cancer.

The researchers found that there were significantly higher numbers of antibodies in the search dogs in the first year after the terrorist attack. The elevated presence of antibodies showed the dogs had been exposed to foreign substances that pressed their immune systems into higher gear. Although the researchers agree that most of the dogs died due to natural causes, they are keeping an eye on the long-term effects. "I don't think these dogs are completely out of the woods. That is why we need to monitor these dogs until the end of their lives, for the dogs' sake and for people's sake. If there is a problem in the dogs down the line, there is a good chance a similar problem could be found in people," the report quoted Dr Cynthia Otto, the lead researcher as saying.

and



Rescue dogs' death not related to 9/11 toxic rubble: research 2004-08-23 16:33:38


NEW YORK, Aug. 22 -- Fourteen search and rescue dogs have died since their exposure to toxic rubble from the Sept. 11 terrorist attack, including eight from cancer, according to a study released Sunday.

Researchers from the University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Medicine, who conducted the study, said there seemed no connection between the deaths and the chemicals they were exposed to.

"We can't find any link at this point that ties the 14 deaths to events of Sept. 11," said Dr. Cynthia Otto, the study's lead researcher. "Some have passed away, but the causes of death are nodifferent than in the control group. That is good news."

Otto's team, which has been monitoring the health of 97 dogs who worked at Ground Zero, the Pentagon and the Fresh Kills landfill on Staten Island, New York, did find "significantly higher" antibodies in the search dogs in the first year after the terrorist attack.

The elevated presence of antibodies, she explained, showed the dogs had been exposed to foreign substances that pressed their immune systems into higher gear.

Although Otto was heartened to find the vast majority of dogs were in good health, given the exposure and the blood changes in the first year, questions remain about possible long-term effects.

"I don't think these dogs are completely out of the woods," shesaid. "That is why we need to monitor these dogs until the end of their lives - for the dogs' sake and for people's sake. If there is a problem in the dogs down the line, there is a good chance a similar problem could be found in people." Earlier, Sierra Club, an environmental group, criticized the Bush administration for failing to warn people of the health risks of breathing toxic smoke and dust at ground zero. The group said the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) failed at least a dozen times to change its safety assurances about the air quality at ground zero, even after it became clear that people were becoming sick, and in some cases, did not even check for toxic hazards.




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Old 08-24-2004, 06:07 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyW
.......The researchers found that there were significantly higher numbers of antibodies in the search dogs.......
OK, You've pushed my button here.........just a second, let me hoist myself up on my soapbox......

People.....it's not just the rubble......IT'S THE FOOD!!!!!

Read my lips.....Dry Dog Food Is Crap -- literally.

Does it have grains - yes....lips, feet, beaks, and feathers - yes, yes, yes, and probably -- and most importantly -- it contains huge doses of potent toxins used as preservatives to prevent the mixture of "parts" from going rancid....

Take a lead from the top breeders and trainers of show and performance dogs.....feed a natural diet.

Show and performance dogs fed the commercial dry diets (popularized in the 50's, 60's, and 70's) have exhibited a difficult time breeding true to lines - or even breeding at all! Entire lines are dying out and I, for one, think that a huge contributor to the problem is "manufactured" diets. Multiple breeds have exhibited abnormal difficulties with pregnancy, whelping, and birth defects. Also, problems with coat, teeth, bad breath, weight and odor (I have 5 dogs in a relatively small back yard, and I defy anyone to detect a "doggy smell" in the house or kennel) are all but eliminated. I have seen first hand the changes that have occurred in dogs fed "institutional crap" their entire lives - luster comes back to their coats, brightness to their eyes, and a spring to their steps....in just weeks on a diet without "preservatives". In the first half of the last century, before "off the grocery store shelf" dry foods became popular, there was hardly any mention of the above mentioned difficulties in the books I have read.

Let's face it, the "dog food" manufacturers want to maximize profit (that's the American Way), so they put "just" enough nutrient into the mixture to allow the dog to appear to thrive - and don't worry about the toxin load.

I feed the pups human quality food, keeping in mind the differences of the digestive tracts of canines as compared to humans......remember that dogs are only tens of thousands of years (in most cases, much, much less) removed from the wild, and their systems thrive on what we would consider "repulsive" food......

Give a dog a bone (BTW, that is a title of one of the many good natural food books)....what does it do with it? - Sometimes bury it? - You bet - and then dig it up to enjoy it after it has "aged".....it won't hurt them, their stomach "juices" are several times more acidic than humans, and they deal with "overly aged" meat just fine.

So...consider a "natural diet", it's really not any more expensive than a "Premium" dry "in a bag" food........your dog (and your vet) will love you for it.

There - I came out of the closet.......I Feed My Dogs a Natural Diet....and I'm Proud of It!!!!!

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Old 08-24-2004, 06:49 AM   #4
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just curious define a natural diet
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Old 08-24-2004, 08:57 AM   #5
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Natural Diet

Quote:
Originally Posted by FireFighter
just curious define a natural diet

As close as possible to what the most recent "diet" in the wild would be.

In the case of Canines, descended from wolves a relatively few generations ago it would mean foraging, (grains, grasses, berries, etc.), whole fowl and small mammals ("wild" canines will de-feather a large bird), and large mammals.

In the case of large mammals, the stomach and internal organs are normally the "prize pieces", and are usually the first to be consumed.

Check out the eating habits of Coyotes and Wolves as documented by reintroduction studies. Some available diets are mostly frozen “whole cow” mixtures of everything that is on and in the cow as it walks into the slaughter house. The stomach contents serve as a suitable source of vegetable material.


Certainly, natural includes bones, guts, feathers and hide, but we must have propriety, although many do feed exactly what is described above. Mostly, I try to avoid any chemical additive or preservative.

There are many "natural diets" proposed by various people, I am pretty much "middle of the line". A bit of Cottage Cheese in the mornings, one large feeding at twilight consisting of about a third each of hydrated oats with Seaweed Kelp (some people use rice), hamburger, and fresh vegetables (carrots, broccoli, peas, green beans, cauliflower, etc.). Every once in a while I’ll mix in a raw egg or two, and sometimes some Flax Seed Oil or Fish Oil. Their Stomach System has a hard time digesting legumes and corn. The little guys go nuts for lettuce as a treat. I also give them pieces of raw chicken from time to time – remember, any bone is OK, as long is it is NOT COOKED. Heat (cooking) processes make the bone shards brittle, and then the bone could be dangerous to the innards of the pups.

By buying “day old” hamburger in bulk and freezing it in “daily use” portions, catching 10 lb. packs of “stewing chickens” on sale, and purchasing frozen vegetables in large packages (institutional size) and on sale my feeding costs are about the same as a premium grade dry food – the pups are healthier overall, immune systems are not compromised, coats have more luster, and NO ODORS with either the stool or urine. The lack of odor is evident on the dogs themselves – we hardly ever have to bathe them – brushing and clipping are usually all of the body grooming they require.

Time wise it takes about 10 or 15 minutes to prepare, but hey, if you don’t have that kind of time for your dog, you ought not have a dog.
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Old 08-24-2004, 09:33 AM   #6
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Dennis, your dogs eat better than I do, but then again they probably look better than I do as well.
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Old 08-24-2004, 09:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Hut
Dennis, your dogs eat better than I do, but then again they probably look better than I do as well.
Tin:

IF there truly is such a thing as "reincarnation", then I want to come back as one of MY dogs.

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Old 08-24-2004, 09:51 AM   #8
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I would like to point out that most of the dogs were near 5 years old at the event is my understanding. Big dog breeds life expectancy is around 10. So these dogs are nearing a elderly status. These dogs have been used in may of these type rescues like mexico city. This could also be from Radon in their sleeping quarters or even at the site.

This is another media instigated blown out of proportion deal before all the tests are in as to WHERE this came from.
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Old 08-24-2004, 10:49 AM   #9
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I have studied 'natural' diets on the net and talked to a number of vets about them, and I don't think they are all they are promoted to be. People promote them reporting stories of their dogs being in superior health, claiming every dog would be completely healthy if they just ate the right foods. My grandma has a whole shelf of books claiming the same things for people. It isn't that simple. All creatures still can become ill through diseases, infections, and weaknesses of their own body as they age, and eventually we all die, no matter what we eat - that's life.

Many vets feel the dangers of feeding dogs raw bones and raw meat far outweigh the possible benefits. So do the research yourself and make your own well informed decision.

My grandma's cock-a-poos both lived to be 20 years old on Alpo! Now that's a pretty long healthy life for a dog, though personally I would never feed my dogs Alpo, but it certainly would make a good case for referring to Alpo as a miracle food.

As for the 9/11 dogs, it's interesting that those two news articles cover the same report with two completely different conclusions. That's the media for you.
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Old 08-24-2004, 11:18 AM   #10
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I like Alpo. Good substitute for Spam.
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Old 08-24-2004, 11:33 AM   #11
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You can use the old "common sense" approach to evaluating "dog food".

For instance, we often see places advertising #40 of dog food for $9.99 (and people are hauling it out in truckloads). What quality can you expect for $.25 per pound? Throw in shipping, packaging, advertising, and inventory costs and you know what? You are buying garbage. It is cheaper to convert garbage into this dog food than to haul it off. Use your heads folks! Read the labels and use your heads.

What can you really expect to get for $1 or $2/pound? Have they figured out some miracle transformation? The food is, for the most part, junk. 87MH is absolutely correct!

We feed organic raw buffalo, turkey, chicken, and lamb (notice - no beef). We supplement with greens, grains, cottage cheese, and eggs. Is it worth it? Ask our 12 year old German Shepherd who looks and acts like a 4 year old...
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:19 AM   #12
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Thanks, x-ray, for info that comes just in time. My old dog smells so BADLY that I was thinking to put him asleep as he gave me such breathing problems. I'll try this diet. So none of the superior canned/dryed dog food works? Like Iams? or such?
Just got back from a summer in Mexico-great air- but my son who came down to bring me back was bitten from a feral dog and is now undergoing the rabies shots. A lot nicer than the old 21 day shots in the stomach I had when I was a kid.! Silver suz
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:28 AM   #13
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Came here to learn things about fixing my AS, and now I know how to feed my dog........... Gotta love this forum.
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Old 08-25-2004, 10:51 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver suz
Thanks, x-ray, for info that comes just in time. My old dog smells so BADLY that I was thinking to put him asleep as he gave me such breathing problems. I'll try this diet. So none of the superior canned/dryed dog food works? Like Iams? or such?
Just got back from a summer in Mexico-great air- but my son who came down to bring me back was bitten from a feral dog and is now undergoing the rabies shots. A lot nicer than the old 21 day shots in the stomach I had when I was a kid.! Silver suz
You know, Suz, many are implicating vaccines to causing allergies and autoimmune disorders in both dogs and people... Another reason to avoid those that aren't necessary. When did your MCS start? After your rabies shots, by any chance? Just a thought...

Can't think of a really good canned food. California Natural products are generally the best, IMHO, so you might try those including their dry kibble so long as you supplement with fresh meats, etc.

Best regards,
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Old 08-26-2004, 09:43 AM   #15
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Yes, shots are implicated, especially in children under 5. I had many shots for living in the phillippines at 18 months in 1950, and then the rabies series at 3, mono for 6 months at age 5. Many of us have had similar experiences at a young age. Yet I was a reasonably healthy functioning adult until my apt was sprayed without notice with pesticides ,now banned. I went very rapidly downhill in several months, making the final cause ,the final straw-very noticible.
I'll try to get CA natural foods. TX except for Austin, seems pretty unaware. (I lived in the Berkeley-Santa Cruz area for 21 years!). Thank you for your help. suz P.S. I had a lot of reservations sending my 20 year old son off for rabies series this week, but a feral dog bite in Mexico, seemed to warrent it. He had no shots except for tetanus until he was almost 6, as I knew of the implications.
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Old 08-26-2004, 09:49 AM   #16
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Quote:
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Yes, shots are implicated, especially in children under 5. I had many shots for living in the phillippines at 18 months in 1950, and then the rabies series at 3, mono for 6 months at age 5. Many of us have had similar experiences at a young age. Yet I was a reasonably healthy functioning adult until my apt was sprayed without notice with pesticides ,now banned. I went very rapidly downhill in several months, making the final cause ,the final straw-very noticible.
I'll try to get CA natural foods. TX except for Austin, seems pretty unaware. (I lived in the Berkeley-Santa Cruz area for 21 years!). Thank you for your help. suz P.S. I had a lot of reservations sending my 20 year old son off for rabies series this week, but a feral dog bite in Mexico, seemed to warrent it. He had no shots except for tetanus until he was almost 6, as I knew of the implications.
It's all cumulative IMHO. A lady was sprayed with Sevin here a while ago and is taking the sprayer to court. She fell apart after the incident and is now completey disabled.

I hope you can find some peace with your health... Have you tried NAET? There are those in Santa Fe that swear by it.

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Old 08-26-2004, 10:24 AM   #17
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I would like to point out that most of the dogs were near 5 years old at the event is my understanding. Big dog breeds life expectancy is around 10. So these dogs are nearing a elderly status.
============================
Good points, all. But the life expectancy varies radically from breed to breed, and line to line within the breed. But. Most large breeds (not the Giant breeds like Irish Wolfhounds) are considered Seniors when they reach 6 years of age. A well trained SAR (Search And Rescue) dog begins its public service life at about age three or four. Before beginning service, the hips must be certified to be sure the dog is free from dysplacia, and this is generally done at age two, at least for OFA registry. But notice, I did say BEGINS its SAR public life at age three or four; many work six years or longer. A lot of work, money, and effort are put into training these dogs. And to the best of my knowledge,is all volunteer! In fact, handlers PAY to go to workshops, and working camps! And I have never met a SAR handler that was not super protective of its dog.

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Old 08-26-2004, 11:49 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87MH

Read my lips.....Dry Dog Food Is Crap -- literally.

Take a lead from the top breeders and trainers of show and performance dogs.....feed a natural diet.
========================

Define 'top breeders and trainers'
Name names; WHICH top breeders and trainers?
Name breeds which, exactly, breeds are you familir with, what is your relationship to the top people in this field? What is the percentage of top breeders, as defined by a national breed club, that feed a 'natural diet'?
========================

Show and performance dogs fed the commercial dry diets (popularized in the 50's, 60's, and 70's) have exhibited a difficult time breeding true to lines - or even breeding at all!
========================

Please cite the sources of this statement, and the breeds involved.
===========================

Entire lines are dying out
=====================

Again, what lines in what breeds? Your source?
===============================

and I, for one, think that a huge contributor to the problem is "manufactured" diets. Multiple breeds have exhibited abnormal difficulties with pregnancy, whelping, and birth defects.
==============================

What is the source of this information? What problems with pregnancy, whelping, and birth defects? Be specific,please.
===============================

Also, problems with coat, teeth, bad breath, weight and odor (I have 5 dogs in a relatively small back yard, and I defy anyone to detect a "doggy smell" in the house or kennel) are all but eliminated.
================================

Hmmm. I'll give you the part about teeth, mainly because of the bone component in the BARF diet... BARF means Bones And Raw Food.... but that happens whether or not the rest of the regimine is followed. Clean teeth help with bad breath, but may not eliminate all sources of the problem. Now, cite your sources for the coat, weight, and odor, please.
=================================

I have seen first hand the changes that have occurred in dogs fed "institutional crap" their entire lives - luster comes back to their coats, brightness to their eyes, and a spring to their steps....in just weeks on a diet without "preservatives".
===========================

Great! But I have seen the same changes in rescue dogs fed a nutritionaly balanced diet, given attention and training, showered with love, not raw diet!
===========================

In the first half of the last century, before "off the grocery store shelf" dry foods became popular, there was hardly any mention of the above mentioned difficulties in the books I have read.
===========================

That was also a time when the concept of 'pet' or 'companion animal' was way different, and a time when most dogs had a much shorter life span! Are you sure you want to use this argument?
===========================

Let's face it, the "dog food" manufacturers want to maximize profit (that's the American Way), so they put "just" enough nutrient into the mixture to allow the dog to appear to thrive - and don't worry about the toxin load.
===========================

Let'snot tar all food manufacturers with the same brush. There are several brands that have excellent diets available.
===========================

I feed the pups human quality food,
===========================
What do you mean by human quality food?
==========================
keeping in mind the differences of the digestive tracts of canines as compared to humans......remember that dogs are only tens of thousands of years (in most cases, much, much less) removed from the wild, and their systems thrive on what we would consider "repulsive" food......
==========================

If you are feeding food that has been processed at all, how natural is it, really? Or, are you whacking the poor chickens,ducks, lambs, bunnies, yourself, and feeding the entire carcass? If you are buying your protein source, chances are it has been killed, gutted (thus removing those valuable stomach contents from your dogs diet), skinned, and waste portions (such as horns, hooves, feathers, and nails) removed.
===========================

Give a dog a bone (BTW, that is a title of one of the many good natural food books)....what does it do with it? - Sometimes bury it? - You bet - and then dig it up to enjoy it after it has "aged".....it won't hurt them, their stomach "juices" are several times more acidic than humans, and they deal with "overly aged" meat just fine.
============================

Cite your sources. What is the p-h of a human stomach? What is the p-h of a canine gut? Ever eaten sauerbraten? This is a dish that was developed to cover the 'off' taste and smell of spoiled meat!
============================

So...consider a "natural diet", it's really not any more expensive than a "Premium" dry "in a bag" food........your dog (and your vet) will love you for it.
===========================

Depends. Human grade, table grade, dog food grade. None of these terms is well defined, and some may shock you by what is really meant! And if you really want to 'Go Natural' you may consider going Organic! Make sure none of those toxic things in feed wends its way into your dogs food chain. After all, even human food is chock-a-block full of those nasty things and preservatives, meat processed for human consumption is loaded with hormones and antibiotics..... (Removing tongue from cheek)
===========================

There - I came out of the closet.......I Feed My Dogs a Natural Diet....and I'm Proud of It!!!!!
============================

Great! I'm happy for you. And your dogs.
=============================

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============================

No need for that, a flame suit. Just be prepared to back up what you claim with studies done by authorities in the field, in a manner recognized as valid by the scientific community.... blinds,double blinds, etc. Know how the results were obtained, what measurements were used, what the controls were. Make sure your sources are good, not some wacky person with a theory and an ax to grind. And make sure they are not annectdotal, such as your statement: I have seen first hand the changes that have occurred in dogs fed "institutional crap" their entire lives - luster comes back to their coats, brightness to their eyes, and a spring to their steps....in just weeks on a diet without "preservatives". How, exactly, was luster, brightness, and spring,defined and measured?

Looking forward to your citation of valid resources. Certainly hope and expect to see references cited in this manner:
1. Lawrence T. Glickman, VMD, DrPH; Nita W. Glickman, MS, MPH; Diana B. Schellenberg, MS; Malathi Raghavan, DVM, MS; Tana Lee, BA. Incidence of and breed-related risk factors for gastric dilatation-volvulus in dogs.Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association, 2000;216(1):40-45.9.

Oh! And please list YOUR credentials in this field!

Elizabeth in Iowa
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Old 08-26-2004, 12:24 PM   #19
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My own un-scientific test.....

Boxer, Male 75 lbs = 1976 - 1992 = 16 years old

Mutt/Corgy Female 24 lbs = 1987 - 2004 = 17 years old

Each feed Science brand program dog food, both dry and canned. 80% dry.


Reference:
1. BobbyW; 27 years of writing checks for food and vets.
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Old 08-26-2004, 12:27 PM   #20
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Rock on, Cedars! You make many good points. I have to say I am quite offended by a conversation begins with a discussion of dogs dying from exposures to toxins and someone pipes up and argues that it is because they weren't fed a natural diet. It is indicative of the attitude of many proponents of this BARF diet, that it is a cure-all for any ill your dog may encounter. While I do not disagree that a dog who is healthy is more likely to fend off diseases and to handle attacks on their systems from outside sources, I do not think it is even slightly reasonable to claim that a natural diet will protect an animal from something like we are talking about with the 9/11 SAR dogs. Not to mention the fact that diet wasn't mentioned at all in the research - many of these dogs may have been on a natural diet. We don't know.

Frankly, I disagree that diet has all that much to do with a dog's condition. I know an 11 year old Rott who has eaten nothing but Alpo and the 40# for $10 dry food her whole life and has never been sick a day. Which still doesn't mean I'd feed my dogs that diet. I think genetics, and lifestyle probably play just as big a part if not more.

I have no problem with people who want to feed their dogs a diet like this as long as they do it understanding the risks as well as the benefits, and that they do not make outrageous unsupported claims for their diet. I am tired of people (and I'm not even talking about anyone on this board) who tell me I am abusing my dogs by not feeding my dogs this way, just because I have weighed it out and decided the risk is not worth the possible benefits, which I consider to be small considering my dogs are already doing great on the high quality prepared diet they are on.

Saying things like 'if you can't be troubled to do this then you shouldn't even have a dog' are fighting words to me!
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