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Old 02-22-2012, 06:33 PM   #121
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Not trying to take sides here, but this is a great vid. To little TV to much TT....

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Old 02-22-2012, 07:27 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by TouringDan View Post
First off, I am an engineer. I believe that the manufacturers ratings are not pulled out of the air, but are based on engineering tests and blessed by the marketing folks and the lawyers. I think that Can-Am does a terrific job of modifying cars, so that they can tow much larger trailers than anyone thought possible. I don't see power, braking or handling as a problem. My biggest concern is how they get around the axle rating. I am sure that there is a significant safety factor built into the design of the axles, but I would not be surprised if the axle rating is not being exceeded by at least 50%-100%.

I don't think that it is a good idea to exceed the manufacturers ratings if at all possible. I do believe that if you cause an accident and you are exceeding the manufacturers ratings that the lawyers will come after you with a vengence. Juries are made up of people, not engineers. I think they will side with the manufacturers because it is black and white. Just my .02 worth.

Dan
Agreed, but my concerns are not only legality, or safety, but the entire powertrain, among other components. Just one example; An engine is designed to put out X amount of torque. Fine and good. A transmission designed for that engine is designed to take that same X amount of torque,but on an intermittent basis for a passenger, street vehicle. ie. zero to 60 while getting on the ramp for a period of 30 seconds, repeatedly over it's life. This hypothetical vehicle, when overloaded, is demanding high amounts of torque, maybe nearing X almost all the time. Not only do temperatures rise, but the metals which were designed to spend most of their lives at lower torques (internal trans plates, gears, splined shafts, etc) will wear at a much greater rate than a non-overloaded like vehicle. That's just one example....u-joints, cv joints, axle bearings, ring and pinions, etc. all will wear at a much faster rate.
Frame or integral frame components stress and fatigue crack pretty commonly. The list goes on and on. These things are not theory...these are things I deal with every day on my job, and I have seen it over and over again.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:31 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by zlee
This blog post made a large impression on me when doing research, as did this one...
I get your point. I have posted this elsewhere but don't know how to provide the link using my iPad, so at the risk of repeating my other posts.....the payload rating of passengers and cargo on my truck (truck now, not a car, a real truck from Ford), is 878 pounds. Not kilograms, pounds. That's what is on the door sticker from Ford, along with the GAWR and GVWR numbers. This data is recorded by the government when the vehicle was first licensed, as I embarrassingly found out. So I appreciate the reference to the blogs about not taking it all with you, but I can't leave my kids home, or the dog for that matter, or my wife. Just the hitch weight, with load distributing, and the five passengers eats up most of that payload restriction. But hey, I guess if I went alone with the clothes on my back and a bag of marshmallows everything would be fine!

Anyone know the load rating of a VW Jetta or Toyota Sienna compared to a 2011 F150? Would be mildly amused if it is greater, but not entirely surprised.

Don
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:41 PM   #124
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I respect physics, mass, velocity & the tensile strength or lack there of in some vehicle frames, roll cages, etc.

I appreciate the engineering that goes into modern vehicles, trailers, hitches, etc.

I have little affinity for the AS/TV debate based on the after effects of a calamity & gobs of ensuing litigation, fault & defensibility. You can't undo dead/disfigured.

My only "dog" in this fight is safety, on the part of the Airstreamer current/soon-to-be & the rest of us on those same roads. Few crash survivors are/will be the same again & many have a list of "if I could do it over again I'd...". My career in public safety has left me biased, my personal experience with being extricated from under a semi' & in courtrooms have left their mark...but I certainly don't see cowering at home in a hermetically sealed bubble as an option either.

I have looked into & marveled at some of Can-Am's set-ups (or those on the roads in Europe). I genuinely applaud Zlee, her Jetta & their recent winter cross country trek home. I personally prefer to occupy a smaller AS & tow it with my Euro SUV, but I know not to swear it's the one, only or best option for all. Some of the more precarious set-ups make me shudder not because of axle weights or those previously debated "arbitrary" numbers... but because I've seen what those vehicles look like wrapped around a tree at speed or tossed down a hill with/without a 10k/lb trailer added to their velocity. I've held commercial & amateur racing drivers licenses and have felt the limits of many vehicles & my own AS/TV combos, and can't fathom what other less prepared or experienced drivers could/would encounter with some of the more "out of the box combos"!

All towing set-ups have huge variables! All trips/destinations require very different roads, elevations, speeds.
All towing drivers have very different understandings, educations & backgrounds.
In the end it's up to each of us to do our research & make that educated leap... If you don't understand all the variables you are committing to, then by all means PLEASE don't exceed those basic vehicle, hitch, trailer safety advisories & local laws/regulations about those weights/speeds...and/or seek out some real RV/drivers training before taking whatever that AS/TV dealer sold you on & hurtling it down the road at 75mph!

If you do opt to tow a PanAmerica with a Ducati (send us pictures first), then be highly mindful of that potential risk of life/limb & litigation nightmare.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:43 PM   #125
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I get your point. I have posted this elsewhere but don't know how to provide the link using my iPad, so at the risk of repeating my other posts.....the payload rating of passengers and cargo on my truck (truck now, not a car, a real truck from Ford), is 878 pounds. Not kilograms, pounds. That's what is on the door sticker from Ford, along with the GAWR and GVWR numbers. This data is recorded by the government when the vehicle was first licensed, as I embarrassingly found out. So I appreciate the reference to the blogs about not taking it all with you, but I can't leave my kids home, or the dog for that matter, or my wife. Just the hitch weight, with load distributing, and the five passengers eats up most of that payload restriction. But hey, I guess if I went alone with the clothes on my back and a bag of marshmallows everything would be fine!

Anyone know the load rating of a VW Jetta or Toyota Sienna compared to a 2011 F150? Would be mildly amused if it is greater, but not entirely surprised.

Don
I kind remember your other thread, but can't remember you exact configuration. Thing in the truck world got really squirrelly when the suburbanite family man cowboy started buying pick'em up trucks.
To appeal to these folks, crew cab, short bed, soft suspension trucks with p rated tires (or worse). Consequently they weren't trucks anymore. A regular old fashioned, gotta get some work done, truck should have 1700 - 2000 lbs of payload. If it's a crew, ya gotta have more suspension and tires to keep the payload after 6 folk get inside.
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:53 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by dznf0g

I kind remember your other thread, but can't remember you exact configuration. Thing in the truck world got really squirrelly when the suburbanite family man cowboy started buying pick'em up trucks.
To appeal to these folks, crew cab, short bed, soft suspension trucks with p rated tires (or worse). Consequently they weren't trucks anymore. A regular old fashioned, gotta get some work done, truck should have 1700 - 2000 lbs of payload. If it's a crew, ya gotta have more suspension and tires to keep the payload after 6 folk get inside.
It's an F150 Platinum Crew Cab 6.5' box with the max trailer towing package, and you are right. It came with 20" low profile P rated tires. The tow rating (pull rating is a better description) is ~11,000 lbs but the payload is less than 900 lbs. I changed the tires to Michelin LTX2's but that doesn't change the sticker on the door unfortunately. I agree with you - this is less like a truck and more like a big car.

Don
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:54 PM   #127
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Wow! Hot thread today!!
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Yup, everyone should keep in mind we are all on the same team. We just have different views on how to get the touchdown.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:37 PM   #128
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dznf0g

I agree that towing an Airstream with a car will accelerate the wear on some of the components. However the only way to find out how much is to "just do it" and find out.

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Very well put. I completely agree. BTW, I carry my Ducati in my truck bed.

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Old 02-22-2012, 08:45 PM   #129
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"Walk a mile in my shoes"...

At least before you criticize about how small they are.
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:52 PM   #130
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If by small shoes you mean your V10 TDI *swoon*, then I'll be over next weekend to put a mile+ in on it. Does a mile up Pikes Peak count
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Old 02-22-2012, 08:52 PM   #131
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dznf0g

I agree that towing an Airstream with a car will accelerate the wear on some of the components. However the only way to find out how much is to "just do it" and find out.

Aspirations

Very well put. I completely agree. BTW, I carry my Ducati in my truck bed.

Dan
I'm not making a car vs. truck debate. There are cars (mostly crossovers, but they are car chassis' more than truck chassis') which are fully capable of pulling several AS models BY THE NUMBERS. My argument is not pointed at Zlee, though she thought so, I think. My argument is not against CanAm per se, although I do think they make a practice of spec'ing tow rig outside the "numbers".

My argument is against not properly spec'ing a TV to it's load. That could be a 1 ton dually hooked to a tri-axle, 4 slide fifth wheel.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:02 PM   #132
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So much truth here. Generally speaking the pickup/large SUV's work but have many short comings. Not so good aerodynamics that interact negatively with the bullet shape of the Airstream. High centre of gravity. Low tech suspension. It seems folks take the heavy weight of the pickups as the saving grace but many will debate whether heavy vehicles towing an Airstream is a blessing or a handicap. Varied opinions for sure on this subject.
Depends on what vintage of SUV you are looking at... the Tundra/Sequioa have very low CoG and are slippery. The Sequoia has independent suspension all the way around. Stability control, traction control... Mine tows my 22 foot like it isn't there... very stable and my wife handles it with confidence.

New stuff built on the 30 year old Suburban or Expedition frames? Yeah, they are going to be rough.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:55 PM   #133
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I would not be surprised if the axle rating is not being exceeded by at least 50%-100%.
They're Canadian, so all their trailers have 5000 lb axles.
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:17 AM   #134
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I am talking about the axle rating of the car (TV).
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Old 02-23-2012, 06:32 AM   #135
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Depends on what vintage of SUV you are looking at... the Tundra/Sequioa have very low CoG and are slippery. The Sequoia has independent suspension all the way around. Stability control, traction control... Mine tows my 22 foot like it isn't there... very stable and my wife handles it with confidence.

New stuff built on the 30 year old Suburban or Expedition frames? Yeah, they are going to be rough.

Really? the Suburban has had 2 all new chassis since 2000, and will have another somewhere around 2015. Don't know about Expy, but I'm sure 30 years is WAY off.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:23 AM   #136
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Just as I was about to float Andy Thompson's name for a possible third party run, I stumbled upon DMT's sobering post (#117). Oh well, there'd probably be a birth certificate issue, too......so, never mind.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:12 AM   #137
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Well, first off, the 2008 Jetta TDI in Europe has a rating of 3000 lbs (apparently more with the frame hitch, essentially what CanAm is doing custom, which is good, because with that I'm under-weight by about 400 lbs). With very little change in the car that I know of, it somehow drops to 1000 lbs in the US. Why is that?

Statistically speaking, on worse roads, there are fewer accidents per capita with more RVs on the roads in Europe, where they tour with four cylinder cars regularly, than in the US. Allowing for lighter RVs with better suspensions than ours, but also allowing for mechanical brakes and no weight distribution hitches, why is that?

It's not like safety issues aren't thought of in Europe, people. Get out of your headspace. It's a bit like my fellow Americans I've met who seem to be surprised that people elsewhere in the world know how to use antibiotics, which they also seem to think we "invented."

I can't speak to the axle issue directly, but I do know it's something that CanAm considers carefully, thus this:



BTW, There wouldn't probably be a birth certificate issue; Andy is Canadian and, insofar as I know, has no wish to be a US citizen--most people don't, you know.
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:42 AM   #138
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FYI, the sticker on my F150 - maximum payload = 878 pounds

Sticker on my friends F159 - maximum payload = 1240 pounds

The difference? OEM Tires. Both trucks are the same year - his a King Ranch, mine a Platinum, both with the same engine, drivetrain and max trailer towing packages.

My truck came with P275/55 R20 tires, his with P275/65 R18.

I have since upgraded to 20" Michelin 10 ply ATX2's, but that doesn't change the sticker on the door or the data in the governments motor registration database.

Ford's numbers on the door for payload exclude operating fluids (ie gas). Just occupants and cargo.

Don
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:59 AM   #139
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I'm not making a car vs. truck debate. There are cars (mostly crossovers, but they are car chassis' more than truck chassis') which are fully capable of pulling several AS models BY THE NUMBERS.
But then why in Europe (BY THE NUMBERS) is a 2006 Jetta TDI rated at towing 3000 lbs, but in the US at 1000, with, insofar as I know, no real difference in the car? (With the frame hitch, apparently it's 3,600, which is good, because that's what CanAm is more or less doing custom, which makes me about 400 pounds underweight. Would that I could do something similar with my own weight.)

Europe probably has more RV/caravans on the road than we do, the vast majority of which is being towed by cars. Their road fatality and accident numbers seem to be way lower than ours, even with their road conditions. Even given lighter trailers, but remembering that they don't really use weight distribution hitches and use mechanical brakes, what does all that mean?

I can't speak to the axle thing directly, but I know it's something CanAm considers carefully, thus this:



And, um, there wouldn't probably be a birth certificate issue, but you'd have a much bigger problem with your nomination, Mr. Evil. Andy is Canadian. Insofar as I know, he has no wish to be a US president; he's no fool!
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:09 AM   #140
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BTW, I don't take any of this stuff personally. I am not my car or even my AS. I'm probably not who other people may think I am, either -- so I don't worry about "personally"! I just think it's silly to dismiss experiential evidence and believe a law (and there's no law that the law is "correct" law) over reality; and certainly I wouldn't be dissing CanAm for not following the numbers, it doesn't take long talking with Andy Thomson to figure out he's very concerned with the numbers and reality.
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