Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-22-2012, 02:08 PM   #101
Rivet Master
 
zlee's Avatar
 
2008 19' Safari SE
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
Quote:
I'm not sure about running a business out of a trailer.
Me neither. Aargh. If the definition is the same as "receiving compensation for an activity based out of that (trailer)", I'm not going to be happy! Something to find out, probably in the fulltimer forums...
__________________

__________________
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

Blog: 300 Miles or 3:00
zlee is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:09 PM   #102
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,805
Images: 5
Again, weight is weight; physics is physics; and ratings ARE determined upon these parameters.

The safety thing.....the lawyers have to figure out if or when anything happens....that ain't my gig.
__________________

__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:11 PM   #103
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,805
Images: 5
"But I think that "properly rated vehicle" is a rather fluffy term, in actuality. To go through the entire process of rating a specific vehicle on six different areas of concern is far better than just saying "you can tow this much weight." The manufacturers don't do this, and to be fair, they can't afford to do so, there's too many possible factors to weigh."

OH YES WE DO! The lawyers do play in my world here...no matter what the cost!
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:14 PM   #104
Rivet Master
 
zlee's Avatar
 
2008 19' Safari SE
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
Yes, weight is weight, and physics is physics, and that's why taking all factors into consideration is good, otherwise things like weight distribution hitches wouldn't exist. And no, you cannot possibly take all possible factors into consideration in something like this. There's just too many. All you can do is state a parameter in order to lessen liability. That's it.

I've spent too much time working in law, sorry.
__________________
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

Blog: 300 Miles or 3:00
zlee is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:17 PM   #105
Rivet Master
 
zlee's Avatar
 
2008 19' Safari SE
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
P.S. If what you're trying to say is that liability and law is the same thing as reality, I'm going to have to stop talking with you in case you're contagious.
__________________
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

Blog: 300 Miles or 3:00
zlee is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:24 PM   #106
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,805
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by zlee View Post
P.S. If what you're trying to say is that liability and law is the same thing as reality, I'm going to have to stop talking with you in case you're contagious.
Nope, Just happens that the mechanical world and the legal liability world overlap...for Mfrs and us tow'ers alike. I just want everybody out there to: have TV that will last as long as those who designed it expect it to; have a well balanced setup which is comfortable and non-fatiguing; do not pose a potential safety issue for themselves and others; and God forbid something goes wrong...the lawyers don't have a bunch of numbers to use against you because you didn't do your due diligence or ignored industry established norms and practices.

That's really all....really.
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:31 PM   #107
Rivet Master
 
zlee's Avatar
 
2008 19' Safari SE
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
Well, since all of those things have been covered over and over again where CanAm setups are concerned, you can be all comfy now! Isn't life nice when we can all be comfy?
__________________
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

Blog: 300 Miles or 3:00
zlee is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:37 PM   #108
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,805
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by zlee View Post
Well, since all of those things have been covered over and over again where CanAm setups are concerned, you can be all comfy now! Isn't life nice when we can all be comfy?
Problem is, I don't think you're covered because CanAm did the setup, if something goes horribly wrong.

If so, tell me how.

I don't think they are certified as a final vehicle manufacturer in the US are they?
Did they provide a new door jamb label with US approved modifications to the ratings?
If they did, you're good to go.
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:49 PM   #109
Rivet Master
 
Currently Looking...
Gainesville , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 7,059
Blog Entries: 2
I wonder how many people with light duty tow vehicles have ever towed with a real tow vehicle? Might change their minds. My tv can barely get up the hills and it can barely stop me if the trailer brakes do not work---not my kind safety. jim
xrvr is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 03:08 PM   #110
Rivet Master
 
zlee's Avatar
 
2008 19' Safari SE
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g

Problem is, I don't think you're covered because CanAm did the setup, if something goes horribly wrong.
Would you like to tell me how ANYone is covered for anything if something goes horribly wrong? Are you honestly thinking that Ford or Dodge is going to cover someone if they overturn because of an improperly (or even properly) hitched up rig simply because it was under their rated weight?

Okay, you just hit "what if he's contagious?" status!
__________________
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

Blog: 300 Miles or 3:00
zlee is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 03:19 PM   #111
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,805
Images: 5
Yeah, I probably should've expanded a bit.
In my professional experience from the mfr standpoint, here's what I have seen occur many times.
When an accident occurs and litigation follows, the plaintiffs will name anybody and everybody they can, and let the negotiations, motions, and system sort out the assignment and degree of responsibility.
As the owner of the rig in question, if you knowingly (hell, maybe even unknowingly) operate the rig outside of the manufacturers ratings you most probably will be assigned a greater degree of responsibility. And the other defendants will pile on to try and minimize/eliminate their degree of responsibility.
Where an OEM, a final vehicle manufacturer, a business which modifies vehicles, or an owner/RVer falls in this mix is, of course dependent on the details of the event.

But, I as an individual, don't want to be caught in an indefensible position.

BTW, might want to check with your insurance company on their thought on the matter. I bet they'd be the first to run away from the party (litigation).
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 03:22 PM   #112
Rivet Master
 
MrUKToad's Avatar
 
2011 28' International
Chatham , Ontario
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,376
Images: 17
Blog Entries: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post

Secondarily, you must be willing to accept the possibility of the words in the following article. (there are others out there, google "liability in towing overloaded" or your favorite phrase.)

TRAILER TOWING ILLEGALLY
The title of the piece, "Towing Illegally", is a misnomer. Manufacturers tow ratings are advisories only and are not legally enforceable. As to liability, I'd suggest that any lawyer trying to apportion blame would need to establish how said ratings were derived which, as others have pointed out, would be impossible as most tow ratings are either 30 years old or plucked from the air. Can-Am have been producing custom towing solutions for 40 years and have not been hit with any liability claims whatsoever - I, for one, will trust their judgement
__________________
Steve; also known as Mr UK Toad

"You can't tow that with that!"

https://toadsoftowedhaul.com
MrUKToad is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 03:32 PM   #113
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,805
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrUKToad View Post
The title of the piece, "Towing Illegally", is a misnomer. Manufacturers tow ratings are advisories only and are not legally enforceable. As to liability, I'd suggest that any lawyer trying to apportion blame would need to establish how said ratings were derived which, as others have pointed out, would be impossible as most tow ratings are either 30 years old or plucked from the air. Can-Am have been producing custom towing solutions for 40 years and have not been hit with any liability claims whatsoever - I, for one, will trust their judgement
I didn't title the article so I won't defend it. They do talk about commercial towing in the article, which does have some legalities surrounding it. And yes they are legally enforceable in commercial applications. I can site a huge conundrum we had relative to landscaping crews, a crackdown on no riding in the bed of a truck, and lack of a crew cab-cab and chassis with sufficient GVW for a large enough landscaper body, and lack of GCWR to go to work with the number of crew on board. End result: Landscapers were overloading both GVW and GCWR and GETTING TICKETED....a lot.

Tow rating are assigned to each and every new platform that is developed. At least at my employer. They are only as old as the vehicle development age, and often get updated when a component is revised within the platform's life cycle (ie. a new engine, or transmission, or and added final drive ratio, etc.) Ratings are NOT established by anyone other than the Chief Engineer for that product line, as the components are designed by the folks under him/her. He has a target which the product development team has established with input from focus groups and information which competitive analysis has uncovered.
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 04:38 PM   #114
Rivet Master
 
zlee's Avatar
 
2008 19' Safari SE
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
Quote:
But, I as an individual, don't want to be caught in an indefensible position.
Now, waitasecond...that's it? That's it? Your argument against using my Jetta to tow my Airstream is that you don't want to do anything that a lawyer could make litigable?

What do you do for fun, sit at home and quiver?
__________________
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

Blog: 300 Miles or 3:00
zlee is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 04:58 PM   #115
Rivet Master
 
dznf0g's Avatar
 
2007 30' Classic
Oswego , Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 10,805
Images: 5
Quote:
Originally Posted by zlee View Post
Now, waitasecond...that's it? That's it? Your argument against using my Jetta to tow my Airstream is that you don't want to do anything that a lawyer could make litigable?

What do you do for fun, sit at home and quiver?

Pretty much, but it's more like a shiver than a quiver.

I'm not against nuttin'! Anyone can do whatever they want. I have clearly stated the reasons why I am kind of strong on this subject, upthread. I just feel that there has been so much mis-information given to folks by people who have a vested interest in the information being given out.

I have no horse in this game. I do work for a manufacturer, but I'd bet all the mfr's reps, if they were here would line up with my mindset.

For some reason, that is a complete mystery to me (some sort of social phenomenon) folks choose to believe some folks because they just want to....rather than folks who have experience in a particular area.

In my case, yes, I do claim expert status on the mechanical and manufacturer standpoint relative to how ratings are arrived at, how much margin is in the spec, and the mechanical ramifications for exceeding the specs.

In the arena of economics, I have experience in investigating, with my commercial accounts, the financial and durability ramifications of overloading various specs.

On the legal side, I am no expert, but have had input into manufacturer legal cases and have knowledge of the outcomes. Also, I have knowledge of my commercial accounts who have had legal issues relative to overloading, whether they be tickets or sometimes worse. Some of these outcomes are outrageous, but they happen.

I think it is irresponsible to say it's "ok" to tow my 30' Classic with your Jetta. Likewise, I think it's irresponsible to say you need a 1 ton dually to tow your Bambi.

For me, I would be irresponsible for not sharing what I know to be the truth through my personal experience. If I didn't care for the folks here as well as their property, I wouldn't go to the trouble! Spec'ing a tow vehicle for a particular application and person is a very detailed and rather complicated process. Very few automotive dealer salespeople know how to do it....and many AS dealers don't either.
__________________
-Rich-

"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
dznf0g is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 05:28 PM   #116
Rivet Master
 
zlee's Avatar
 
2008 19' Safari SE
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
Hon, again, there's often a deep divide between reality and the law. I am satisfied, after much investigation, that my rig is safe, in fact statistically safer than quite a few of the rigs out there if you believe the insurance agencies. I'd like it to be a bit more powerful, but it's safe. (And I didn't have to go into debt for it!) And now I'm saving up for either my ideal TV or as close as I can come, without having to put off living the life I've chosen to lead until that happens. As far as I'm concerned, that's a win situation all the way around.

(Funny, we were just talking today over coffee, some friends of mine and I--it's interesting how many people say that they really really want my life...except they obviously don't, because that's not what they choose to do.)

All I can tell you otherwise is to come up to CanAm RV with (or without) me and talk to the crew there about your concerns. They're very careful about how they spec a tow vehicle, and the result is that I have not been able to find one single person willing to say that they was robbed. (If you know anything about customer service, you'll know that I can't find even a 10% of these is amazing.) Experiential proof is still proof. Unless, of course, your main concern is to not actually find out and just go along with "what everybody knows!"
__________________
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

Blog: 300 Miles or 3:00
zlee is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 05:53 PM   #117
DMT
4 Rivet Member
 
DMT's Avatar
 
2011 27 FB International
East Coast , Newfoundland
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 353
Here's one of my experiences, which may be of interest to Can-Am folks. Here in the east we don't have commercially available CAT scales, but the Ministry of Transportation highway truck weigh stations are very obliging in letting you run through their scales. I have used them probably half a dozen times this past summer as I dialed in my hitch setup. For the record, I have a F150 towing a 2011 International 27FB.

Imagine my surprise on my last weighing. We were headed out for three weeks - kids, dog, bikes, canoe, generator, gas, water, etc. etc. I wanted to check out the last adjustment I made to the hitch, so I went through the scales and pulled ahead and parked, and then walked over to the shack to get the ticket indicating my axle weights. The attendant was taking an unusual amount of time and after a moment, asked me to come around the counter to his computer screen. He proceeded to show me all the data in the vehicle registration database on my truck, including the specified GAWR and GVWR numbers, and pointed out to me that my rear axle was overloaded. As a transportation officer he indicated he had the authority to ground my vehicle then and there until the issue was corrected, and ticket me for a violation of the highway traffic act. I was not over by much so he let me go on and was pretty good about it. Not so much my wife when I got back in the truck.

So, this experience has shown me that there is a legal requirement with respect to axle loadings. It's just not being enforced outside of commercial vehicles. I won't presume to offer anyone advice on what they should or should not do. Just thought I would share the memorable start of my three week holiday!

Don
__________________
[AIR# 55762 TAC# NFL-1
DMT is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 06:09 PM   #118
Rivet Master
 
Silverflames's Avatar
 
1969 29' Ambassador
brooksville , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,270
Wow! Hot thread today!!
__________________
Not all those who wonder are lost.
Silverflames is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 06:16 PM   #119
Rivet Master
 
zlee's Avatar
 
2008 19' Safari SE
Erie , Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 942
This blog post made a large impression on me when doing research, as did this one...
__________________
"If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning." - Catherine Aird

Blog: 300 Miles or 3:00
zlee is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 06:27 PM   #120
Rivet Master
 
TouringDan's Avatar

 
1966 24' Tradewind
1995 34' Excella
Lynchburg , Virginia
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,679
First off, I am an engineer. I believe that the manufacturers ratings are not pulled out of the air, but are based on engineering tests and blessed by the marketing folks and the lawyers. I think that Can-Am does a terrific job of modifying cars, so that they can tow much larger trailers than anyone thought possible. I don't see power, braking or handling as a problem. My biggest concern is how they get around the axle rating. I am sure that there is a significant safety factor built into the design of the axles, but I would not be surprised if the axle rating is not being exceeded by at least 50%-100%.

I don't think that it is a good idea to exceed the manufacturers ratings if at all possible. I do believe that if you cause an accident and you are exceeding the manufacturers ratings that the lawyers will come after you with a vengence. Juries are made up of people, not engineers. I think they will side with the manufacturers because it is black and white. Just my .02 worth.

Dan
__________________

TouringDan is offline  
Closed Thread


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Truck & Trailer Weights nickmeloy Towing, Tow Vehicles & Hitches 6 04-02-2014 10:02 AM
What do you carry in your truck and how do you organize them? Airperson Boondocking 45 11-07-2011 11:42 PM
Snap Size '65 Tradewind? P&A Upholstery, Blinds, Walls & Interior Finishes 2 07-16-2011 03:27 PM
Tires and tire size KyMoonshine Tires 5 03-08-2011 04:28 PM
How do you cover the back of your truck? aname4me Tow Vehicles 34 03-01-2011 12:36 AM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.