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06-11-2020, 10:24 AM
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#21
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Rivet Master
2018 25' International
Slidell
, Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,725
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of course they flex, but the displacement vs. tension profile is a function of the bar's cross sectional moment of inertia. Bars with large cross sections (more accurately with greater mass displaced from the center of mass) will be stiffer and will flex less for the same tension. Thus hollow bars for example are much stiffer than solid bars of the same weight/strength.
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06-11-2020, 10:46 AM
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#22
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Rivet Master
2022 25' Flying Cloud
NCR
, Ontario
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 3,085
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IMHO, that is very un safe.
the ball is far to distance from the rear of the TV.
The closer to the rear axle the better.
as others have stated, the farther it is from the rear axle, the larger the arm of momentum.
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06-11-2020, 10:48 AM
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#23
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mollysdad
The square bars are a copy of the "Equalizer" hitch, and there's thousands of them on Airstreams. Including mine. I assure you, they flex
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I'm sure they do...stiffly.
What I've learned in 45yrs of Streaming...stiff is good for some things but pulling an AS is not one of them.
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
Im done with adultingLets go find Bigfoot.
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06-11-2020, 11:11 AM
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#24
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Rivet Master
2018 25' International
Slidell
, Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,725
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PB_NB,
1. Glad to hear the scale is strain/hydraulic based.
2. I suspect the system is loose in the box but is plenty rigid once everything is bolted together. I would not be concerned about that until you inspect it first hand or have it installed. You are correct to be concerned if there is slop when traveling.
3. The bars are a bit stiff but it is not the end of the world. On the road the trailer won't be harmed by the stiffness. In a head on collision, the extra stiffness could cause some extra damage (wrinkles in the aluminum sheets) to the trailer. And in traversing swales and side to side uneven terrain same situation. So just avoid swales and laterally uneven terrain or stop and release tension.
4. Sway control will be very good to excellent, it shares the design concept of the equalizer. No issue there, as there is friction in the bars and friction on the ball. The ones with chains (including Blue Ox) rely on ball friction and differential geometry to pull the trailer back into alignment. The Blue Ox has less initial sway control at small angular displacements but more at high (a bit after the fact really) so I usually describe it as good sway control although an advocate could properly say it is excellent when you need it. Me, I think an ounce of prevention is better. Now having said that I use a Blue Ox..... figure that one out... I can't.
5. You are correct the damper design is nice, I really like the Reese Straight-Line.
6. The Hensley Pro Pride hitches are an engineering marvel. They are superior, but they come at a cost, both dollars and weight. (Bob might think I'm trashing his hitch again). If you are the white knuckle type driver, they are exactly what you need.
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06-17-2020, 10:48 AM
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#25
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Highlands Ranch
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 225
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I have a "simple" Weigh Safe adjustable height ball mount with the scale. I really like it, but I only bought it in a moment of insanity when there was a group buy and I needed a 3" shank ball mount. I have the same standalone scale that Robert Cross has in his picture, so I really didn't need a ball mount with a scale.
I saw reviews of the new WS WDH and it's an innovative approach to WDH. I think it will work OK.
FWIW, Weigh Safe customer support is excellent.
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06-17-2020, 02:09 PM
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#26
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Rivet Master
2019 22' Sport
Port Coquitlam
, British Columbia
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 1,315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRTKD
I have a "simple" Weigh Safe adjustable height ball mount with the scale. I really like it, but I only bought it in a moment of insanity when there was a group buy and I needed a 3" shank ball mount. I have the same standalone scale that Robert Cross has in his picture, so I really didn't need a ball mount with a scale.
I saw reviews of the new WS WDH and it's an innovative approach to WDH. I think it will work OK.
FWIW, Weigh Safe customer support is excellent.
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I started with a 2" receiver drop style unit that has 6" of drop and 2 different ball sizes. I have pulled the Sport on 2 different trips for a bout 600 miles all together and really didn't have any issues with the way things handled. I like that quality of my aluminum hitch with the little scale so I thought about looking at Weigh Safe for the WDH. The price seemed in the same ballpark as most of the other systems. Mind you there are some pretty inexpensive WD hitches out there.
The only issue I had with the regular hitch is about 2 1/2" of rear squat. I was able to adjust the trailer level using the vertical adjustment in the draw bar so it ran perfectly flat. I just didn't like the truck squatting so much so I had a look at their WDH system. I ordered when I posted this thread and got some great feedback. I will take the combo out try out the hitch now that it finally arrived from Utah yesterday.
I probably wont be able to get to a scale to weight the truck today but will do that very soon. I will post some pictures of the system once I have the truck and trailer together.
I might just hate it and send it back like ksteve did!
I was looking at the design compared to my standard hitch and one concern was how much the hitch head extended the ball away from the bumper. It looks like I am getting 6" more distance with the WDH compared to their regular unit.
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06-17-2020, 02:23 PM
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#27
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3 Rivet Member
Currently Looking...
Highlands Ranch
, Colorado
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PB_NB
I was looking at the design compared to my standard hitch and one concern was how much the hitch head extended the ball away from the bumper. It looks like I am getting 6" more distance with the WDH compared to their regular unit.
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For those that can't get their tailgate to open without it hitting the tongue jack, that extra 6" would be a bonus.
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06-17-2020, 09:09 PM
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#28
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Rivet Master
2020 22' Bambi
2022 25' Globetrotter
St-Laurent
, Quebec
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker
3. The bars are a bit stiff but it is not the end of the world. On the road the trailer won't be harmed by the stiffness. In a head on collision, the extra stiffness could cause some extra damage (wrinkles in the aluminum sheets) to the trailer. And in traversing swales and side to side uneven terrain same situation. So just avoid swales and laterally uneven terrain or stop and release tension.
4. Sway control will be very good to excellent, it shares the design concept of the equalizer. No issue there, as there is friction in the bars and friction on the ball. The ones with chains (including Blue Ox) rely on ball friction and differential geometry to pull the trailer back into alignment. The Blue Ox has less initial sway control at small angular displacements but more at high (a bit after the fact really) so I usually describe it as good sway control although an advocate could properly say it is excellent when you need it. Me, I think an ounce of prevention is better. Now having said that I use a Blue Ox..... figure that one out... I can't.
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I too got the True Tow hitch. Towing a 2020 Bambi 22FB with it. My TV is a Tesla Model X. Only two outings with the new hitch so far but Im really impressed by the sway control (though admittedly I have only towed on the ball before). Went through a heavy rain storm with strong winds and nothing was moving. Now, you are scaring me with the wrinkles in the AS aluminum! ;-) The stiffness of the bars (and yes they are stiff) and I assume the A frames would transfer the tension of uneven pavement to the aluminum, is that it? And how bad would the road have to be for that to happen? Are we talking a series of serious potholes or your average gravel road in a campground? This risk would be enough to make me reconsider using this hitch.
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06-17-2020, 09:41 PM
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#29
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4 Rivet Member
2019 25' Flying Cloud
Pala
, California
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
I'm sure they do...stiffly.
What I've learned in 45yrs of Streaming...stiff is good for some things but pulling an AS is not one of them.
Bob
🇺🇸
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I have not come across any actual examples of damage from stiff sway bars...
Lots of anecdotal tales and advice but zero data....
Love to see some proof one way or another!
Trav
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06-17-2020, 10:04 PM
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#30
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Rivet Master
2019 22' Sport
Port Coquitlam
, British Columbia
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 1,315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steilkurve
I too got the True Tow hitch. Towing a 2020 Bambi 22FB with it. My TV is a Tesla Model X. Only two outings with the new hitch so far but Im really impressed by the sway control (though admittedly I have only towed on the ball before). Went through a heavy rain storm with strong winds and nothing was moving. Now, you are scaring me with the wrinkles in the AS aluminum! ;-) The stiffness of the bars (and yes they are stiff) and I assume the A frames would transfer the tension of uneven pavement to the aluminum, is that it? And how bad would the road have to be for that to happen? Are we talking a series of serious potholes or your average gravel road in a campground? This risk would be enough to make me reconsider using this hitch.
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I asked the support at Weigh Safe about the stiffness of the bars and that they are designed for up to 1,500 lbs tongue load. Apparently, the way these work is that the oil in the system dampens the stiffness so there should not be detrimental effects to the trailer or tow vehicle.
The other typical systems will use different ranges of material to make their load bars. So a lighter setup would have more flexible bars.
In this case the hydraulics are set to your distributed tongue weight by cranking up the bolt on hitch head. As the trailer angle is changed by road conditions, the increased or decreased force applied to the ball is absorbed into the hydraulic system.
I also installed the load bars and stood on the ends of each of them and was quite amazed at the amount of flex that was in the bar.
I was not able to try mine out yet but maybe in a day or so. I can fall back on the standard hitch if this one sucks.
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06-18-2020, 05:13 AM
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#31
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Rivet Master
2018 25' International
Slidell
, Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,725
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To further alleviate your concerns, on the road, the forces generated are balanced and evenly distributed, and with the hydraulic damping PB_NB describes plus the physics you are fine. Issues will only be if you try to negotiate deep storm drain swales like what you see between driveways and the street. Anytime you see the scrapes on the pavement, the signs of cars bottoming out, avoid that swale. Worst is uneven lateral terrain mostly while parking on hills or backing into a hilly campsite. Anything that will cause the vehicle to be twisted side to side so the vehicle tires are at a different elevation side to side relative to the trailer. In both these cases just release tension first.
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06-18-2020, 05:22 AM
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#32
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"Cloudsplitter"
2003 25' Classic
Houstatlantavegas
, Malebolgia
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 20,000
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1500lb bars for a Bambi totally unneeded...
Stiff WD bars with stiff TV suspension equals an excessively harsh ride...some have realized that for awhile now.
Go for it if it pleases you. I'll follow Terry's and Inland Andy's advise.
TETO
Bob
🇺🇸
__________________
Im done with adultingLets go find Bigfoot.
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06-18-2020, 05:42 AM
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#33
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Rivet Master
2018 25' International
Slidell
, Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,725
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It would be useful to hear about ride quality while towing. If it feels harsh and stiff for the vehicle passengers you can safely assume the trailer is feeling it too. The conventional rule to avoid bars heavier than you need for the task is tried and true. Not trying to alarm anyone, a harsh ride is not going to cause structural damage, but it can jar things loose, and as bob says, it's not necessary.
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06-18-2020, 05:43 AM
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#34
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,658
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"The square bars are a copy of the "Equalizer" hitch, and there's thousands of them on Airstreams. Including mine. I assure you, they flex."
Not much. There was an old graph posted about 2011, of a weight vs. Flex experiment that Inland Andy did. Eq square bars are extraordinarily stiff. He compare them to several other brands.
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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06-18-2020, 05:47 AM
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#35
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisH
I have not come across any actual examples of damage from stiff sway bars...
Lots of anecdotal tales and advice but zero data....
Love to see some proof one way or another!
Trav
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I have, and there are other reports over the years.
Front skin bowing out, creating leaks at my battery box doors through a gap.
Plastic battery box fatigue and cracking.
Popped rivets.
After eq was sold, no further problems with reese tapered bars (800#) nor HAHA (1K#)
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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06-18-2020, 06:24 AM
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#36
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Rivet Master
2018 25' International
Slidell
, Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,725
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to add a bit more, suspension systems and WD systems are passive, they of course react to impulses from bumps, but they are feedback systems so they don't react directly to the impulse, rather they react to the displacement from normal. Since they know nothing of the bump or the road after the bump, the response they have cannot be actively adjusted for each situation. All this to say, they cannot respond perfectly to every situation.
So the best one can do to get good damping on small bumps (avoid the spongy back and forth) without getting too stiff is to tune them for neither, in which case they will not excel at anything really but they won't have terrible performance for any situation either. You will know you have the best set-up when you hit, for example, a joint on an overpass or bridge and the response is up, down up, stop. That is not a great response, most would call it sloppy, but it will prevent a jarring hit if you hit something big like a deep pothole, and it will avoid endless porpoising. So shoot for up, down, up stop, curse that you can't do any better and drive along knowing you've done your best.
Now what to do if you don't have that response? Well this is where the debate starts. Some people fix the spring systems they have by changing spring rates on tension bars, axle springs, add airbags, or change tire pressure. If damping is the issue they change or adjust the the shock absorbers. Others add additional devices like AirSafe hitches or Sulastic Spring Shackles.
What's best? Generally best is to get the basic system as close as you can and add supplemental systems only to fine tune if you have special sensitivities.
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06-18-2020, 09:15 AM
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#37
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4 Rivet Member
2019 25' Flying Cloud
Pala
, California
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g
I have, and there are other reports over the years.
Front skin bowing out, creating leaks at my battery box doors through a gap.
Plastic battery box fatigue and cracking.
Popped rivets.
After eq was sold, no further problems with reese tapered bars (800#) nor HAHA (1K#)
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These are anecdotal by definition.
A scientific study would reveal demonstrably repeatable results and those are lacking.
The hitch is just one part of the system. Simply seeing a flex and pointing at a hitch is far from the whole story.
Set up is everything! Static weight distribution and not using the hitches force to over balance a load. I think the WD hitches should work minimally. The Blue Ox for instance say "move the chain link" ie increase the strain to balance the load! There should be a standard set up on a properly installed and balanced load and recommending to just just crank it down..... Blue Ox instructions should say if not level double check your load...not crank it down....
Thanks!
Trav
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06-18-2020, 10:20 AM
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#38
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Rivet Master
2018 25' International
Slidell
, Louisiana
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 3,725
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The most objective evidence supporting Rich are insurance data and the reports from insurers, and here there is good support that excessive tension applied to small trailers especially increases the risk of damage. Accidents, especially front end collisions are particularly risky but also uneven terrain and entering gas stations. I read this about 2 years ago, it was from an insurance industry conference paper.
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06-18-2020, 10:39 AM
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#39
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4 Rivet Member
2019 25' Flying Cloud
Pala
, California
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker
The most objective evidence supporting Rich are insurance data and the reports from insurers, and here there is good support that excessive tension applied to small trailers especially increases the risk of damage. Accidents, especially front end collisions are particularly risky but also uneven terrain and entering gas stations. I read this about 2 years ago, it was from an insurance industry conference paper.
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Thanks!
But again this is anecdotal. No other information is provided.
I suppose I really don't expect a scientific explanation as it would be too difficult to analyze incidents and reproduce set up. But as I said I think there are many more factors involved.
No doubt they put a lot of stress and strain to do their jobs and there's no way to determine if set up properly in each incident. So far all the RV accidents I've seen have been operator error.
When I ordered my Equal-I-Zer they of course downplayed the hazards but did not seem concerned about weight rating suggesting to go a little heavier than lighter which to me would be counter intuitive if they had any information about damage. Lawyers would chime in making lower rated the standard I'm sure... Despite being a for profit business I'm sure they want to minimize claims and all things being equal you'd rather be safe than sorry...says the lawyer!
It's interesting the industry has basically been mute on the topic and Airstream refuses to weigh in.
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06-18-2020, 05:24 PM
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#40
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Rivet Master
2020 22' Bambi
2022 25' Globetrotter
St-Laurent
, Quebec
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BayouBiker
To further alleviate your concerns, on the road, the forces generated are balanced and evenly distributed, and with the hydraulic damping PB_NB describes plus the physics you are fine. Issues will only be if you try to negotiate deep storm drain swales like what you see between driveways and the street. Anytime you see the scrapes on the pavement, the signs of cars bottoming out, avoid that swale. Worst is uneven lateral terrain mostly while parking on hills or backing into a hilly campsite. Anything that will cause the vehicle to be twisted side to side so the vehicle tires are at a different elevation side to side relative to the trailer. In both these cases just release tension first.
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Thanks Brian. On the True Tow, could relieving the tension be to simply dial down the distributed tongue weight in your opinion or is it completely removing the bars? Former is simpler obviously hence my question.
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