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Old 08-22-2015, 05:47 AM   #101
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Woiw! What a discusion... For the record last year a made 26 000 km across the Usa whit a 27 foot Airstream whit a gas Grand Cherooke. I did all the montain you can do whit my combo. Everything went very weel. I boot my 30 foot last november. I pull it whit my truck work a F250 and I can say the Touareg andel much better the the F250. SO FOR THOSE SPECIALIST HOW SAY IT IS NOT GOOD, FILL FREE TO COME TO MONTREAL AND TRY IT WHIT ME. AFTER THAT WE WILL TALK.. Like I say, when i pull my trailer i almost not notice is in the back. The Touareg is a exceptional suv for towing. I add and drive lost of truck i my live, and the touareg for me is the most well built suv.. Like I said sorry for my english....
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Old 08-22-2015, 08:52 AM   #102
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You missed the point. The conversation turned into exceeding or not exceeding tow limits stated by TV manufacturers.
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Old 08-22-2015, 09:05 AM   #103
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I work for porsche, I can let you know the cayenne diesel specs based on a very base (read NO option) cayenne diesel are 7,716 max trailer weight, 14,043 gcvw, 716 tongue weight, all up to 12% grade and 60 mph with a single 165lb occupant , all accessories (navigation, radio, seats, basically everything we like in america) and additional occupants will drop these weights correspondingly, on a personal note I do not condone many of the weights I see placed behind these vehicles on here. Hope this helps
This is from the Horse's Mouth. That weight describes a medium size trailer.
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Old 08-22-2015, 09:41 AM   #104
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You missed the point. The conversation turned into exceeding or not exceeding tow limits stated by TV manufacturers.
And you missed the point. Nobody asked you to turn the conversation. If you want to talk about exceeding tow limits, start your own thread. Don't hijack someone else's thread and use it as your soap box.
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:43 AM   #105
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Sorry ... the first responder got the best of me. I'm actually very lazy and hate cleaning up messes. So when I read about someone towing a trailer that exceeds the TV specifications and others thinking it's a good idea I selfishly pointed it out.
If you prefer, in the future if I come across any RV accidents in my travels, I'll check to see if limits were exceeded, ask the person if they knew they exceeded the limits (assuming they are conscious), and whether or not they thought it was a good idea before doing the life saving stuff, calling 911 for backup, etc. how's that sound?
Such an interesting family ...
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:50 AM   #106
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And you missed the point. Nobody asked you to turn the conversation. If you want to talk about exceeding tow limits, start your own thread. Don't hijack someone else's thread and use it as your soap box.

This is a forum and people will express their opinions, and not all opinions are validations. If you want just validations/praise, an online forum is not the best medium. Also, I did not see OP saying "I don't want any feedback on the suitability of my combo".
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Old 08-22-2015, 10:51 AM   #107
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LOL, read this whole thread...great discussion! Just need one clarification, since exceeding mfg specs is ok up to a point, exactly what in terms of pounds and trailer dimensions and weight dustribution is the upper safe limit under all reasonably foreseeable dynamic conditions (we all know unforeseen things never happen anyway)....being an engineer (PE)and in the market for a new trailer it sorta makes me wonder exactly where all the "I dun it for years" experts say the envelope finally comes apart.....are mfg spec limits based on 3 sigma normal distribution or maybe 2 sigma possion maybe erlang test data, or did they just say "oh shucks Bill, just top Ford's numbers, nobody really pays any attention to math, physics, and engineering anyway".... I never realized the max take off and landing specs for aircraft are just general guidelines for those of a cowardly risk adverse nature, as are vehicle seat belts and air bags...of which I have never needed either...again LOL and happy camping to all, and to all a good night.
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Old 08-22-2015, 12:03 PM   #108
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LOL, read this whole thread...great discussion! Just need one clarification, since exceeding mfg specs is ok up to a point, exactly what in terms of pounds and trailer dimensions and weight dustribution is the upper safe limit under all reasonably foreseeable dynamic conditions (we all know unforeseen things never happen anyway)....being an engineer (PE)and in the market for a new trailer it sorta makes me wonder exactly where all the "I dun it for years" experts say the envelope finally comes apart.....are mfg spec limits based on 3 sigma normal distribution or maybe 2 sigma possion maybe erlang test data, or did they just say "oh shucks Bill, just top Ford's numbers, nobody really pays any attention to math, physics, and engineering anyway".... I never realized the max take off and landing specs for aircraft are just general guidelines for those of a cowardly risk adverse nature, as are vehicle seat belts and air bags...of which I have never needed either...again LOL and happy camping to all, and to all a good night.
All of which goes back to the very basics that I often suggest on this and other forums: "the first thing the new user needs to answer is, are you one who thinks the manufacturer stated numbers are real values to stay within, or are you one who believes you know enough about all the processes involved to say, aw, those are just guidelines that I can pick and choose to stay within, or ignore"

Once you answer that question, then you can start choosing a tow vehicle. It probably is pretty obvious at this point in the game that if you believe you can fudge the numbers to suit your own belief system, then you have many more potential vehicles from which to choose.
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Old 08-22-2015, 12:51 PM   #109
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Tiny knows it's not all about trailer weight and vehicle tow ratings. Some vehicles and some trailers are safer than others by design. It's difficult to fit all this into a ratings chart, so they don't.

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Old 08-22-2015, 01:06 PM   #110
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Tiny knows it's not all about trailer weight and vehicle tow ratings. Some vehicles and some trailers are safer than others by design. It's difficult to fit all this into a ratings chart, so they don't.

Doug, are you ever going to give credit to Frank Lloyd Wright for your "The truth is more important than the facts" signature?
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Old 08-22-2015, 01:06 PM   #111
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Tiny knows it's not all about trailer weight and vehicle tow ratings. Some vehicles and some trailers are safer than others by design. It's difficult to fit all this into a ratings chart, so they don't.


You reinforce my point Doug: if a person chooses to make their own interpretations of the stated OEM limits, that opens up the field of possible choices of tow vehicles.

Other folks feel that for a variety of reasons, it makes more sense to abide by the numbers stated by car company.

I'm not an engineer. I am a ( now retired ) machinist. Not having formal education in engineering, I defer to those fine folks when it comes to the math and physics of vehicles in motion. So it goes without saying, I fall in the camp of "stay within the stated limits". Maybe I should amend that: "stay within the limits stated by folks that know more than I do on the subject".

I always try to remember to go by the rule "know what I don't know".
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Old 08-22-2015, 01:37 PM   #112
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Geo, the trouble with ratings alone allows us to choose a very unstable tow vehicle and travel trailer combination. Let's study the question and try to learn something.

Rostam, I would credit FLW but he copied it from several others in various forms. It just goes against the grain of conventional thinking and I like that, allows us to learn something.
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Old 08-22-2015, 01:54 PM   #113
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As I have stated, in my working life I was a machinist. The last ten years I was also in management, and was a trainer in the shop. As a manager, I spent more hours than I really preferred to in meetings with engineers and other managers. One thing I learned about engineers, is they, as a group, look at the big picture. The WHOLE THING, when designing a system. I suspect the engineers at GM, Ford and the rest, have considered the entire scope of vehicle dynamics when they designed their trucks and cars, and gave consideration to all of it when they specified "ratings".

Again though, this is the beauty of, or fault of, depending on your view, of our system: you get to choose what to buy based on whatever criteria you see fit.
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:11 PM   #114
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And how do we judge the difference in travel trailer stability, which can be dramatic, that we hitch our properly rated tow vehicle to.
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:36 PM   #115
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And how do we judge the difference in travel trailer stability, which can be dramatic, that we hitch our properly rated tow vehicle to.
Each trailer handles differently, depending on lots of things, from design, to how it's loaded. The real point is, does the driver have the skill set necessary to understand the differences, and drive in a manner that is prudent to maintain control ?
Here's an extreme example: I have a gooseneck equipment trailer. I could whip that thing around a road course like a crazy man if it were empty. But load it with 144 bales of hay, and it becomes a totally different situation.
It's up to the driver to do things correctly.

Sorry, but I'm not impressed with videos of slalom course runs. I've had a drivers license since 1966. I honestly cannot think of one single time, not once, that I have needed to do a slalom manuever on the street. It's so foreign to me, I don't even know how to spell it !

So to answer your question, we judge the handling of the trailer by experience. And good sense says that we make an honest attempt to keep it under "the edge".
One of the things I learned when racing motorcycles was it's difficult to know exactly "where the edge is", until you step over it. So most folks work their way up gradually to try to find the limit, while still being able to pull it all back into control before crashing.

When I installed the blueox WD hitch on my Nissan, I hooked up the white box camper, and went out did some testing on some roads in a local industrial park on a sunday morning. Dropping the right wheels off the side of the road, and pulling back up onto the pavement. Abrupt lane changes, etc.
I don't know how you have done it Doug, with your Ram and your Airstream, but that's how I did with my camper. One thing I found when done, was that some drawers inside the trailer got opened up
I also discovered I can get pretty darned aggressive with it, and it follows right along like a puppy.

EDIT: a further point would be that we all need to "practice" certain crash avoidance manuevers to remain proficient. That's one of the major things that is hammered home in motorcycle and car racing schools: practice your skills regularly. A "school" where RV folks could go to practice would be great. Driving schools in general are money well spent. I took oldest daughter to the Bondurant school when she was 17....best money I ever spent on her.

EDIT two: that "dropping the wheels off the edge" of the pavement thing.... I saw that on the Hensley website. They show an old Blazer IIRC towing a camper, and they do that in the video. I thought....that's cool.... I'm gonna try that.
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:43 PM   #116
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I love watching that video. Does anyone really drive their rig like that? AND, it proves nothing. I want to see a person walk in front of this rig and see what happens when the driver has to slam on the brakes as he is turning. How much control will he have now?
I really think in that situation a heavier vehicle will have more control.

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Old 08-22-2015, 02:51 PM   #117
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And how do we judge the difference in hitch stability, which can be dramatic, that we install between our properly rated tow vehicle and trailers with dramatically different stabilities.
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Old 08-22-2015, 02:52 PM   #118
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I love watching that video. Does anyone really drive their rig like that? AND, it proves nothing. I want to see a person walk in front of this rig and see what happens when the driver has to slam on the brakes as he is turning. How much control will he have now?
I really think in that situation a heavier vehicle will have more control.

Bruce
That "turning combined with hard braking" is where ABS on both trailer and truck would pay dividends. The idea on full on braking in a violent swerve is one of the exercises they did at the Bondurant school ( without a trailer obviously ). The exercise was intended to get the student to trust the ABS while in a swerve. It was fun to watch because the first few times thru the exercise, my daughter was tentative on the brakes. After several tries, she just cranked the wheel and stood on the brake pedal hard. She was shocked at how quickly the Mustang stopped while making the lane change/swerve.
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Old 08-22-2015, 03:01 PM   #119
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And how do we judge the difference in hitch stability, which can be dramatic, that we install between our properly rated tow vehicle and trailers with dramatically different stabilities.
Doug, you seem to be trying to just throw a lot of different arguments out there for some reason or another ? I'm missing your point. You know as well as I do there are many variables, from road surface, tire type, size, tread design, compound, suspension design ( spring rate, shock damping values, among other things ), hitching design, whether the hitch is properly set up, etc, etc.

MANY variables, which is why in the end, it make sense when considering a LOT of these variables to STAY WITHIN LIMITS....so as not to step over a boundary that may cause loss of control.

Staying with manufacturer stated weight and towing limits is one example of something we "can" exercise some control over. By deferring to the judgement of educated and professionally certified engineers, we likely improve our odds of success.
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Old 08-22-2015, 04:54 PM   #120
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We "can" also exercise control over trailer, hitch, and tow vehicle design as well. To miss that point is to misunderstand why thousands of good combinations such as Tito's Touareg and Airstream perform exceptionally well. Let's not miss the opportunity to learn.

This is not an endorsement for anyone to randomly exceed any ratings; it is an attempt to urge others to look beyond the ratings and understand the importance of good, stable design of travel trailers, hitches, and tow vehicles.

There are a lot of rigs out there within ratings that are within a gust of wind on a downhill curve from loosing control due to bad trailer, hitch, or tow vehicle design. Safety is not all in tow vehicle ratings, and they may not even be a good starting point.

That is my point.
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