Using a 4Runner to tow a Flying Cloud 23FB

[KJRitchie]

Yesterday my wife and I went to our storage site to measure the affect of loading up the hitch of our 2005 4Runner 2wd SR5 4.7L V8 using the weight of our 2009 17' Casita and our body weight. I backed up the 4Runner under the Casita's coupler. The 4Runner has a full tank of gas and I have my two plastic bins that contain my water hoses, sewer hose supports, Lynx blocks, various bits and pieces for water and electrical connection. The other bin has my green grass rug and a tire lug cross wrench.

First measured the distance from the ground through the wheel hub to the bottom of the vendor lip. About 35 1/8"

The I lowered the Casita onto the hitch. Approximate weight is 420lbs. One propane tank is full and the other is probably 75% full. The Casita has two 20lb tanks. The 25 gallon holding tanks is behind the single axle and is empty. The 32 gallon gray and 15 gallon black is empty and the 6 gallon water heater is empty. The single batter is in a compartment near the rear bumper. I wouldn't be surprised in the hitch weigh is greater than 420lbs at this time. The fender dropped from 35 1/8" to 33 7/8".

Then I had my wife stand on the hitch. Another 160 lbs. The distance to the fender is 33 1/2".

Then I set the camera up on a tripod, set it on the 10 second timer and ran and got on the hitch along with my wife to add my 195 lbs. Examining the photo the measurement was 33". So the the 4Runner sinks about 2 1/8" on the rear when about 775 lbs is on the hitch.

Today I went to a CAT scale solo with almost a full tank. With me out of the 4Runner the results are compared to GAWR:

Steering axle: 2220lb GAWR is 2495 lb (275lbs under GAWR)
Drive axle: 2060 GAWR is 3020 lb (960lbs under GAWR)
Total 4280lb
GVWR is 5490 lbs so the payload is 1210 lbs. The door sticker states its 950lbs so maybe this refers the amount of weight you can added to the rear axle since I'm under the GAWR of the rear axle by 960l lbs.
BTW, the label on the 4Runner hitch states 750 lbs for dead weight and 1090 lbs allowed with weight distribution.

So when weight distribution is used less than 275 lbs can be transferred to the font axle. If the WDH can transfer from the 800lbs only 380lbs then the 4Runner will be at the same level as when there is 420lbs. To pull it up another 1/2" which seems what Equalizer recommends then another 160lbs needs to be transferred. I'm not sure how much gets transferred to the front axle vs the trailer axles. I've never used a WDH.

So if the 23FB or D hitch weight is around 800lbs then left over payload is 400 lbs. Not much to play with. Is it possible to increase the payload a few hundred pounds using suspension air bags etc?.

Kelvin

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by Glenritas

Warning !!!!

Do NOT exceed the TV max tow rating !

If you do and have an accident your insurance will NOT cover you !

The lawyers will have a field day with you !

If someone is killed god help you.

Why throw this stuff around without substantiating it? No one ever has, could you kindly give an actual example?

doug k

[av8or]

This IS absolutely true. The GVWR are published to protect you and more importantly the auto manufacturer. Guaranteed if the insurance company learns that the manufacturer specs. were exceeded, they won't pay. Also, if law enforcement discovers that you exceeded the manufacturers GVWR and are at fault for an accident, you will be cited accordingly. Take this from someone who was involved in an accident with a truck (semi) which was overloaded (exceeded the GVWR). Although this had no bearing on the accident, the driver (and company) were sued and are no longer in business since they had to declare bankruptcy after paying fines, medical expenses, collision and compensation to the involved parties.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

So if the 23FB or D hitch weight is around 800lbs then left over payload is 400 lbs. Not much to play with. Is it possible to increase the payload a few hundred pounds using suspension air bags etc?.

Kelvin

Do a search on here for "4Runner" and particularly posts by Andrew T. Apparently, Older 4Runners were never great at transferring weight forward but you may see where others have managed to around the issue.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by av8or

This IS absolutely true. The GVWR are published to protect you and more importantly the auto manufacturer. Guaranteed if the insurance company learns that the manufacturer specs. were exceeded, they won't pay. Also, if law enforcement discovers that you exceeded the manufacturers GVWR and are at fault for an accident, you will be cited accordingly. Take this from someone who was involved in an accident with a truck (semi) which was overloaded (exceeded the GVWR). Although this had no bearing on the accident, the driver (and company) were sued and are no longer in business since they had to declare bankruptcy after paying fines, medical expenses, collision and compensation to the involved parties.

Glenritas was talking about the manufacturer's tow rating rather than the GVWR. I'd agree that the GVWR is important and overloading a vehicle, whether with a trailer, cargo or passengers is something you should avoid. As to enforcement or liability, the rules relating to commercial vehicles like the example you were quoting are stricter and much more rigidly enforced than those for private vehicles so I'm not surprised that litigation was involved. I'm sure you could get into difficulty if you were seriously exceeding your private vehicle's GVWR but you won't be routinely checked by anyone unless it's glaringly obvious.

Regarding the tow rating, we've been around that buoy many times. It's an ill defined figure that can't be proven legally (which is why they're not legally binding) nor in cases of liability (because there's no standard definition, nor any technical data to back up the rating). There are no cases of people being prosecuted for exceeding tow ratings and there are no lines of lawyers out there looking to sting unsuspecting trailer folk with liability claims. If there were, we'd surely know about it.

Doug is right to ask Glenritas to substantiate his claims because statements like the those he's made are the worst possible scaremongering.

[dkottum]

Comparing commercial operators' towing regulations and liability to recreational towing is like comparing the uptown restaurant's regulations to kids selling kool aid at the street corner.

We don't get pulled over by the cops or run through weigh stations for this. It is our responsibility to our family and others to use common sense when setting up our rigs, as well as good driving practices going down the road. Clearly some have it and some don't, and there's a lot more to it than a label on the tow vehicle or Airstream.

doug k

[Glenritas]

Tow Rating & GVWR & CGVWR & GAWR These are things that should not be exceeded.
Those that do, do so at everyones risk.

BTW call your claims department and ask them if they'll pay off if you do and have a claim.

This is a sue happy country, why risk it all to save a few bucks.

No scaremongering here just common sense.

Set up the correct TV Trailer combo and be happy.

[KJRitchie]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

Do a search on here for "4Runner" and particularly posts by Andrew T. Apparently, Older 4Runners were never great at transferring weight forward but you may see where others have managed to around the issue.

So I searched the members and found Andy Thompson and looked through all his posts.
This first post was from 2008.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...tml#post568122
It interesting what Andy thinks of the receiver. The label on my 2005 factory receiver states 1095 lbs with weight distribution.

"Don't buy a 4Runner to tow with. It is a great off road vehicle but I use it as an example of how not to build a tow vehicle. Every spec on it is bad for towing. The factory hitch receiver is extreamly weak and will not transfer weight properly and the only way to strengthen it means removing the spare tire. As well the receiver tube is so short it soon strethes so the ball mount wobbles all over."


This second post is from 2011 and he has come up with some suggestions for 4Runner owners.
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f353...tml#post966450
"Modifying them for towing is relatively simple."
1. If you have the factory Toyota receiver it is too weak and the length of the receiver tube is too short so remove it (6 bolts) and add an aftermarket class three receiver."
2. "When you add the reciever it is pretty simple to weld a piece of steel in bettween the mountin points of the factory receiver and the aftermarket one to strengthen it even more."
3. "Once you have a solid hitch receiver you want to use a Hensley style hitch on the Airstream. The Hensley is the only hitch that will give you stable towing with this vehicle."
4. "One other change we usually make to the 4Runner is we install smaller tires with firmer sidewalls. You will notice a big improvement in solo driving as well with this change. If you have 17" rims we change to P235/65R x 17" XL tires. If you have 18's We use a 235/60R x 18" XL (extra load) tires. The computer can be recalibrated so the speedometer still reads properly. These tires also give you more power and a litte better fuel economy."

"With these changes you can tow a 27 or 28' as easily as the 25'. In fact I think the 28 may be a touch more stable than the 25"

I'm not sure you have to do all this for a 23'. I could get an after market hitch and have supports welded but I don't want to loose my spare tire and I can't thrust anyone around me to know how best to weld on extra supports.

Kelvin

[mefly2]

Stay within the published vehicle specified limits ... or ...

[KJRitchie]

I've searched other RV forums for peoples experience with a 4Runner. Most agree the 109" WB is a limiting factor for trailer length and the 4.7L V8 has plenty of power to pull most trailers up to 23' and longer. I have not read of any issues with the hitch failing or torquing due to weight distribution or weight not being transferred correctly from a WDH. Most of the posts I read involved stick trailers and mileage figures ran from 8mpg to about 12mpg. I would think towing an Airstream would be a better towing experience vs the stick trailer.

Here is a quote from a Bigfoot owner, August 2011 with a 2004 Toyota 4.7L V8. Mine is a 2005 4.7L. Toyota bumped up the horsepower at bit in 2005 from 235hp to 270hp but torque is similar 330ft lbs at 3400rpm.

"I just towed 1500 miles from Austin to Ruidoso, NM pulling a Bigfoot 22ft 5000lbs travel trailer. I've logged approx 10,000+ miles using the Runner as my tug vehicle and it does a great job! I never had to floor the truck, even while climbing the Davis Mountains during this trip. The MPG avg'd 10.1. However, I keep a fairly constant speed of 72MPH on I-10 (the speed limit is 80) and actually got the truck up to 90MPH down a long, rolling hill. I have near zero sway and it only squats in the back approx 1 inch or so, but I use the Equal-i-zer 4 point sway and weight distro set up. I doubt I would pull anything without this hitch. It makes all of the difference in the world. I use the Prodigy brake system which I also like. "

Kelvin

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by KJRitchie

I've searched other RV forums for peoples experience with a 4Runner. Most agree the 109" WB is a limiting factor for trailer length and the 4.7L V8 has plenty of power to pull most trailers up to 23' and longer. I have not read of any issues with the hitch failing or torquing due to weight distribution or weight not being transferred correctly from a WDH. Most of the posts I read involved stick trailers and mileage figures ran from 8mpg to about 12mpg. I would think towing an Airstream would be a better towing experience vs the stick trailer.


Kelvin

That's your dilemma I guess; so much information out there and much of it conflicting. Plenty of people tow with 4Runners and I think Andrew T is only saying that they're OK but that there are better tow vehicles. As you say, towing an Airstream is normally easier than towing an SOB so that eases things up a bit. In the long run, your Airstream will easily outlast your tow vehicle so if one TV isn't doing for you then you'll have the opportunity to try another.

[tschabarum]

Hi everyone. Thanks for all the great info. We towed our Flying Cloud 23 FB home to Seattle this weekend from Spokane, WA with our 4Runner. It did great on the flats, but on the uphill grade out of the Gorge we slowed to 45 mph. I think if I were going to be constantly doing mountain grades it would be smart to upgrade to the Tundra, but will have to sacrifice gas mileage and smallness for it. Otherwise, the 4Runner is good, but in the future, I'll be buying a Tundra for the TV. I'm a Toyota guy through and through. Never had a problem....

I thank all of you for your insights. I wish I'd waited to pull the trigger on the 4Runner before we bought Margaret, but there you have it. You can follow our trip here: Travelin' Light | An Airstream, The Road, The Sky

[KJRitchie]

I checked your link and saw the picture of your AS 23FB and your 4Runner. It looks great! I have the same color as you, the Salsa Red, on my 2005 4Runner. Your's looks like its a 2011 or higher. Aren't you running with the 4.0L V6. And you still was able to go up the mountain passes at 45mph. Nothing wrong with that. I bet you weren't the slowest vehicle.

My 2005 has the 4.7L V8 and when I shift it to 3rd (5 speed), when pulling my 17' Casita' it puts the rpm right at the peak torgue rating which is about 55 to 60 mph. When I approach grades I will manually shift down to keep my 55-60mph cruise speed. In 3rd gear I have to back off the accelerator on most interstate grades to keep from going over 60mph. That is fine with me. I know I'm sucking gas but even during that leg of our Glacier trip we still got a decent 13 mpg tank.

My 4Runner came with the 7300lb hitch and the 7 pin connector is right next to the receiver. All I had to do is add a fuse in the fuse box slot for the controller and using the Prodigy 2 Toyota cable hook it up to the factory plug under the dash and mount the Prodigy. Mine is located to the right of the steering column. I did the install my self.

What hitch do you end up with?
Do you know what the hitch weight was?
Did you take the trailer and 4Runner to a CAT scale.
How does the trailer track behind the short wheelbase (109") 4Runner.
Did you hit any cross winds?
What was your range per tank fill up? I think yours still has a 23 gallon tank like mine. I usually get 260 to 280 miles per tank with a 3 to 2.5 gallon reserve pulling my Casita. For some reason when I pull it in east Texas I don't get as good mileage, only 13 mpg.

We are looking for preowned Tundra Double Cab 5.7L. We were tempted to go to one of the remaining 2012 Ecoboost Ford F150s. With the incentives the prices are close to clean used late model, low mileage Tundras. So we decided to find a Tundra under $20k that has less than 80K miles and use it for the next 5 years. We only need it to tow and the occasional 2nd car use since I'm fortunate to be able to work from home most of the time.

We don't need the high end Limited models with leather and navigation. SR5 or Grade. I prefer the console shift to the steering column shift. I wish Tundras came with a large gas tank (26 gal).

We looked at a 2012 23D this weekend. We drove 300 miles with the Casita to Little Rock to Crain RV. They were nice enough and the technician Phil was knowledgeable but their lack of any action to get the trailer ready for me to test tow or even clean it up was instrumental to us not wanting to buy. We did find deficiencies in the floor plan which compounded our decision. But they had a second buyer that was local and their attitude was if we didn't buy it this other customer would and apparently he did so they got away with it. At least we got to see a 23D and determine it wasn't the floor plan for us. They had a 2013 23FB there and we actually had a change of heart on this floorplan from when we saw it several weeks ago. The biggest negatives for us are the lack of foot room under the dinette. We will need to accommodate three people, the lack of pots and pans storage space under the double sink. The plumbing from the right sink restricts frying pans. The International version solves this by using the single round sink. This opens up the shelf to allow more pots and pans storage. The other negative is the lack of a sitting area or lounge area that the 23D/C has. I guess the dinette could be taken down to create a large lounch couch. The TV swings around so it can be viewed from the bed or the dinette. The AC in the 23D was loud and probably will be loud in the 23 FB. Living in Texas and travelling though the midwest the AC is always on during summer trips. Gotta buy a stick trailer to go a quieter duct air AC environment.

Thanks for posting.

Kelvin