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Old 05-08-2020, 09:08 PM   #21
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Vehicles don't wear out these days, not like they used to. They become unreliable simply due to the complexity of the systems they use.



I would replace it.


I agree. I got rid of a 2001 Volvo (my old tow car) with about 180,000 miles, not because the engine and transmission were worn out, but because the central electronic module was failing (affecting the fuel pump), and possibly also causing the car to go into limp mode. It wasn’t worth fixing, so to the salvage yard it went.
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Old 05-08-2020, 09:14 PM   #22
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Typical Service Life of a TV??

Let’s hear it for the lovely German-engineering in the Bosch electronic fuel injection and engine control module they used on those beasts. Been there, the system and the tee-shirt both failed prematurely and were unreliable as well as generally unrepairable.

Was a lovely red Volvo 760 4 banger turbo intercooler setup with a fancy independent rear suspension. Fast, comfortable, safe. Handled like a sports car, blew by BMWs and hauled butt, when it was working...but let it sit for a week or two, and something would break in the electricals and be hard to figure out. Good thing I’m an engineer.
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Old 05-09-2020, 07:09 AM   #23
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I just went through this with a 2004 Suburban with under 120,000 miles.

Very reliable, tremendous space inside, towed well.

But ... it was 15 years old. I was beginning to have little things — switches, mainly — give me trouble, and I was losing confidence for long trips into the hinterland.

So, bailed and bought a new one (Ford Expedition).

Sticker shock! Love the tech, cameras and comforts, though, and everything works.
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Old 05-09-2020, 08:37 AM   #24
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Jim,

Perhaps a different point of view. I have a 2003 Chevy truck with 115,000 miles - most of it towing. It still runs great and no major problems. BUT, I did have to replace rusted out brake lines - and later a rusted out fuel line. I'd check those on your truck if I were to keep it. (Salt on the roads might be your friend in winter but it does cause problems.)

I recently had the oil and transmission fluid analyzed before normal scheduled maintenance. Both samples showed no problems. So with the two major components in good shape I am good to go. (The oil analysis compares yours to similar vehicles and can flag impending problems.) Oil analysis is used by major fleets to minimize downtime and repair expense. You might want to see what you vehicle looks like.

A new vehicle can have some downsides. For whatever reason, new trucks are higher off the ground. More difficult to get into and a higher center of gravity; not good. Also, everything seems to be controlled by a touch screen and the software is not always well designed. The radio , heater and air conditioner on my vehicle are easy to use. Also, some of the "safety" features can be annoying -e.g. beeping when you make a minor deviation to avoid a pothole. A new car is like a computer on wheels. Enough said.

I agree with the comments on Toyota reliability; if the Tundra will do it for you it is probably a good choice. (My brother gave away his 14 year old Camry with 370,000 miles; running great and only using a quart of oil every 5000 miles. He just wanted a new car. I would not hesitate to have taken it on a cross country trip.)

Having said all the above, I was sort of considering looking at a half ton Chevy with the 3 litre diesel. The new half ton's are quite capable TVs and the straight six engine has some advantages with balance and ease of maintenance. BUT, how high off the ground is it and the software.

I'll keep the old truck.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Whit Nash
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Old 05-09-2020, 09:19 PM   #25
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Jim

Seems like you have spent a lot of money on maintenance and repairs for your truck.

I bought a new Tundra in 2008. I figured it would easily take me 300,000 miles with very few problems. It has been a great vehicle and very reliable. Until last summer it had only been to the dealer once and I don’t think I had spent more than $1,500 for maintenance over 105,000 miles. Well last summer I broke a valve spring. This was unusual and certainly not expected. Bottom line was that it cost $3,500 to replace all the valve springs. After that we put 8,000 miles on it going to Colorado and to Michigan. No problems. No matter how reliable something is sometimes your number just comes up. My number came up. I still love my Tundra and expect it to be reliable for many years to come.
One thing about the Tundras. They haven’t changed the drive train since 2007. Evidently it has been very good. I really like it. The 5.7L motor and the 6 speed transmission are outstanding. Based on your maintenance costs I would sell your truck and go after a well cared for Tundra or what ever else floats your boat.

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Old 05-09-2020, 10:34 PM   #26
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The actual mileage of your vehicle is not an issue, IMO. 170K is low mileage.
Each person has a different approach to maintenance. If you are relying entirely upon a shop to keep your ride in shape...then that explains what I consider your very high expenses for such a low-mileage vehicle.
Chronological time may play a role here however. All your hoses, belts and “rottables” are due for replacement unless they’ve already been done.
Your engine will be fine...172K is NOTHING to it. But your transmission and rear axle should be serviced because of your towing loads on them.
I’m a person who keeps vehicles until they’re no longer reliable, which for me, usually means 15-20 years at 300K miles. I like to get my vehicles modified exactly to my personal tastes and am reluctant to “start over”.
Example: My 2012 truch has tool boxes, tonnaue cover, special wiring and electrical conveniences that I’m not eager to have to do all over again to a new truck (because dealers don’t do modifications like I want). So I’m reluctant to give up my customized-for-me features too readily, and I’m willing to pay for component replacements rather than deal with depreciation and hassles of getting another vehicle exactly like i want it.
New vehicles are nice... but they are also needful of lots of customizing before they’ll do what my present ride will do. YMMV
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:09 PM   #27
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Forever

That's the answer of course. Or until you can't get parts when you need them. Which was the case with my 2003 Ford 6.0L diesel Excursion with 411,500 towing miles on it. And the majority of those miles were pulling 1 of 2 34ft slide-out Airstreams. Wore out the first 34fter @ 300k.
Had to give up the TV when sensors become harder and harder to come by when out in the boon-tullys. Other than that I would have kept throwing money into it forever. My new F350 ain't the same vehicle as the Ex. Tows well but nothing remains the same.
So it's up to you. Yes you can do it. But can you afford to even if you can get spare parts.
FYI...I even considered getting a parts donor. But Excursions are still being kept on the road for obvious reasons so a non-starter there.
Good Luck. Ol Bob.
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Old 05-13-2020, 01:11 PM   #28
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I started searching the online ads when I decided on the Airstream.
I had a budget, and the truck would be a daily driver.
I didn't want debt.
The days of buying the paper to see the car ads are over. A site like Auto Trader has everything in your area.
I eventually found my TV about three hours away. a 2015 Tundra 5.7 "Certified used", looked absolutely new and had 12,000 actual miles.
It was the double cab, so still had the 6.5 bed and a bit more payload. Already had running boards, spray in bedliner, deck rail system, and dark tint windows, tow package.
They weren't exactly giving it away, but trading in my beloved Honda, and buying a certified used gave me some warranty and confidence. At the point of sale they offered me a Toyota extended warranty making it bumper to bumper for 70,000 miles. Extra $1500. I declined, but I often wonder if I should have said yes.
I don't see any reason to buy new.
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Old 05-13-2020, 09:29 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Mollysdad View Post
I started searching the online ads when I decided on the Airstream.
I had a budget, and the truck would be a daily driver.
I didn't want debt.
The days of buying the paper to see the car ads are over. A site like Auto Trader has everything in your area.
I eventually found my TV about three hours away. a 2015 Tundra 5.7 "Certified used", looked absolutely new and had 12,000 actual miles.
It was the double cab, so still had the 6.5 bed and a bit more payload. Already had running boards, spray in bedliner, deck rail system, and dark tint windows, tow package.
They weren't exactly giving it away, but trading in my beloved Honda, and buying a certified used gave me some warranty and confidence. At the point of sale they offered me a Toyota extended warranty making it bumper to bumper for 70,000 miles. Extra $1500. I declined, but I often wonder if I should have said yes.
I don't see any reason to buy new.


I completely agree with buying certified used if you find the right vehicle. However, I think you were wise not to spend $1,500 on an extended warranty. The only repairs made to my Tundra after the 36k warranty were new brake pads (not a warranty item) until the broken valve spring at 105,000 miles.

We bought a 3 year old certified used 2015 Audi A3 for my wife with only 15k miles. At the time, my 2015 Golf already had 115k trouble free miles on it. The warranty on the A3 was good for another two years. From here on out we will shop for a certified used vehicle as the first option.

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Old 05-13-2020, 11:26 PM   #30
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Thanks to all who responded. Many good observations and anecdotes here, and there is a lot to think about. Especially noteworthy were your comments about reliability and the highly appealing purchase incentives being offered. Thanks again, all!
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Old 05-14-2020, 07:26 AM   #31
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Forever! If you like your TV, why trade for a new one, especially if it is no longer made. I've got a 2000 Ford Excursion that I purchased new and have replaced the transmission and engine with Ford Motorcraft remans and every bushing with new. If I were to buy a new F250, I would have spent about $40,000 more than I did on my Ex.
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:07 AM   #32
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. . .
. . . From here on out we will shop for a certified used vehicle as the first option.

Dan
Bingo!
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:27 AM   #33
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I think you were wise not to spend $1,500 on an extended warranty.
Normally, I'd never touch an aftermarket extended warranty. They exclude almost everything. However, this was through Toyota. I didn't get all the details (like did the repairs have to be at a Toyota dealer) and I was already writing a check that strained my budget. I called two days later to get details and was told it was offered "point of sale" only, so I no longer could buy it.
I've passed 40,000 miles with not a single issue.

Years ago I drove a Toyota Celica. In 125,000 miles, I never had the valve covers off, and still had the original spark plugs!
It ran as good as new. I hope some worthy high school or college kid snapped it up.
"If it ain't broke, don't break it!"
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Old 05-14-2020, 01:23 PM   #34
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They do not make vehicles like they used and as such they are also not priced like they used to be either! I for one sure am glad!

As stated earlier their is a huge difference in vehicles manufactured in 2010 versus 2020. The newer the better!

Having said that it does not mean that a 10-20 year old TV cannot be reliable and last hundreds of thousands of miles. It's that little item called maintenance that makes the difference. Not changing the oil as recommended in a 2020 vehicle will kill that new 2020 model vehicle much faster than than not changing oil would have on a new 2010 vehicle.

WHY?

The engine operating systems in a new 2020 is far more dependent upon the engine oiling system than a new in 2010 vehicle. Direct injection gas and diesel, timing belt tensioners and more are now dependent upon the engine oiling system in many vehicles. This is just one example.

Maintenance is the key to the longevity of any mechanical device. With the exception of my wife's daily driver and one daughter's daily driver the other 13 or so vehicles we have all have over 200K miles and I will git in anyone of them and drive a across county towing a trailer or whatever without a second thought.

How long your TV lasts is TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON YOU THE VEHICLE OWNER!

OH! And let's not forget your level of attraction to "NEW CAR SMELL"!
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Old 05-14-2020, 03:56 PM   #35
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They do not make vehicles like they used and as such they are also not priced like they used to be either! I for one sure am glad!

As stated earlier their is a huge difference in vehicles manufactured in 2010 versus 2020. The newer the better!

Having said that it does not mean that a 10-20 year old TV cannot be reliable and last hundreds of thousands of miles. It's that little item called maintenance that makes the difference. Not changing the oil as recommended in a 2020 vehicle will kill that new 2020 model vehicle much faster than than not changing oil would have on a new 2010 vehicle.

WHY?

The engine operating systems in a new 2020 is far more dependent upon the engine oiling system than a new in 2010 vehicle. Direct injection gas and diesel, timing belt tensioners and more are now dependent upon the engine oiling system in many vehicles. This is just one example.

Maintenance is the key to the longevity of any mechanical device. With the exception of my wife's daily driver and one daughter's daily driver the other 13 or so vehicles we have all have over 200K miles and I will git in anyone of them and drive a across county towing a trailer or whatever without a second thought.

How long your TV lasts is TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON YOU THE VEHICLE OWNER!

OH! And let's not forget your level of attraction to "NEW CAR SMELL"!
I think you are only looking at half the equation. The issue is that vehicles today are not just mechanical devices, they are also electronic and computer devices.

An owner can do scheduled and preventative maintenance to help prolong the mechanical parts, but it isn't going to help if the computers fail. As you point out, vehicles today are very different than years ago, and an aspect of those differences is increased complexity. System complexity is the enemy of reliability.

My last SUV went 13 years without issues. I changed the engine oil and filters, and did other planned maintenance at 20,000-24,000 km intervals, as called for (sometimes a few thousand k early, but only due to service visit timing issues). Some friends predicted catastrophic failures, recommending more frequent oil changes for example. Approaching 200,000 km the vehicle used zero oil in between services. I don't know how you get better than that. And when the vehicle developed electrical issues, it didn't matter that the mechanical components were in great shape, it wasn't economically viable to repair it. The vehicle was worth more parted out.

Test question: how many are using a 13 year old computer as their primary device? If it is for hobby use, fine. If it is more mission critical (like a cross country trip) then there is likely something newer on the desk IMO.
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Old 05-14-2020, 04:10 PM   #36
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You are correct!

It will be the obsolecence and no availability or repair options of the electronic and computer components that will render a 2020 model vehicle unrepairable in the future as these electronic components will die long before the mechanical components wear out!
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Old 05-14-2020, 05:00 PM   #37
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How long your TV lasts is TOTALLY DEPENDENT UPON YOU THE VEHICLE OWNER!"!


And it’s exposure to road salt and it’s substitutes etc.

Been there done that in northern Ohio but here in my neck o the woods SC it’s a almost never happens.

Glad to have my 2005 Dodge 2500 5.9L Cummins 6 speed.

Gary
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Old 05-14-2020, 08:13 PM   #38
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Drive em

I never buy without driving and it then it’s up on a lift. The YouTube Blog Less Junk More Journey is proof. Sold his Airstream bought a fifth wheel then flew to Florida from TN to buy a Ram Diesel used with 170k. Next few videos were suspension problems the famous check engine light failed turbo missing air bags etc. $$$$$$$.

Is a half ton in 2020 really a half ton or is it a station wagon on steroids ?

Lots of good advice here. Buy your truck from the underwear up. Suspension ,Payload ,Brakes Fuel capacity, Locking rear diff etc. Then its inside the truck for safety features the comfort part. Drive it for road feel behind the wheel for more than the around the block road test.

Every truck has + and - they have not built for me a F- 250 body with a Cummings Diesel and Allison transmission yet

Good shopping.




Quote:
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Thanks to all who responded. Many good observations and anecdotes here, and there is a lot to think about. Especially noteworthy were your comments about reliability and the highly appealing purchase incentives being offered. Thanks again, all!
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Old 05-15-2020, 06:37 PM   #39
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I think you are only looking at half the equation. The issue is that vehicles today are not just mechanical devices, they are also electronic and computer devices.

An owner can do scheduled and preventative maintenance to help prolong the mechanical parts, but it isn't going to help if the computers fail. As you point out, vehicles today are very different than years ago, and an aspect of those differences is increased complexity. System complexity is the enemy of reliability.
....
The KEY is finding a reliable, trustworthy and KNOWLEDGEABLE maintenance shop and doing that “on the road” can be challenge.
Example: My electronic computer (Known as a TIPM) in my Ram 1500 failed and Ram wants a fortune for it.
But my local mx shop is clever, and honorable, and used his computer and brains to figure out that the problem was an internal component dealing with the fuel pump (mounted in the fuel tank.). The PUMP was fine...but the TIPM didn’t communicate properly with it. My guy grabbed two short pieces or wire, two butt-splices and a $6 horn-relay (a small, plastic, common automotive relay) and within 15 minutes my truck was up-and-running!
He was smart enough to know that Ram wanted to sell me a $550 TIPM (and doubtless a few hours diagnosis/installation) when all that needed to be done was power-up the fuel pump when the key was turned to Start. My cost was one-hour labor plus $6. It’s been running perfectly now for 2 years since.

I realize this is a fortunate matter that not many can enjoy. (I also was a Toyota technician in my young 20’s and have spent 40 years managing aircraft maintenance so I may be not be a good comparision... I keep cars until they’re either worn out or wrecked... but I don’t get the idea of buying new cars every 3-5 years like my BIL.)
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