TV Question

[thewarden]

Originally Posted by Foiled Again

Perfect balance standing still? Seems right. Logical.

Going around curves, or up or down hill? Or have to swerve or make a panic stop because a large boat just flew off its trailer 60 feet in front of you? Or when a big semi blows your skirt up?

A staircase guard rail is stupid... until you slip just a little bit and recover from it without even thinking about it.

Live long and prosper

I wished I said that

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by thewarden

You really need to look this up. What you are talking about is reducing front bias and increasing rear bias. This puts more braking on the rear tires, which, within limits, improves braking efficiency. However, too much rear brake adversely affects handling in a couple of ways. First, it reduces overall braking efficiency. More seriously, too much rear brake bias, particularly if the driver is not braking in a straight line, can cause the rear tires to lock up, which puts the vehicle in a dynamically unstable condition that can easily result in loss of vehicle control. Also, with rear‐brake bias, the vehicle will have a tendency to rotate (OVERsteer) at corner entry upon brake release. As I said before, this is bad news in an emergency maneuver. Again, it is best, and safest to maintain the engineered weights on the front axle.

Fooling around with front and rear bias to optimize braking is much more complicated that simply taking weight off of 1 axle and putting it on to another. And while race teams do it for the track, the principles do not work that well on the street.

Maintaining the engineered brake bias to the front will put more braking force into the front tires. This will stabilize the vehicle in braking zones and increase understeer at corner entry, critical in an emergency steering and braking situation.

Brake bias' are carefully considered by the vehicles engineers, and I for one, tend to want to stay within those design specs for my own safety and piece of mind. While I understand the concepts, I certainly do not know enough to start messing with something engineered by someone way above my pay grade.

No engineer would ever want to put more weight on the front of a vehicle. The vehicle has more weight on the front because that's the only way they could get the engine to fit into it.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by Foiled Again

Perfect balance standing still? Seems right. Logical.

Going around curves, or up or down hill? Or have to swerve or make a panic stop because a large boat just flew off its trailer 60 feet in front of you? Or when a big semi blows your skirt up?

A staircase guard rail is stupid... until you slip just a little bit and recover from it without even thinking about it.

Live long and prosper

You will find that in a downhill slalom race the rig with the ball hitch will get to the finish line first while the rig with the w/d sway control hitch will be crashing thru the marker cones.

[thewarden]

Originally Posted by out of sight

No engineer would ever want to put more weight on the front of a vehicle. The vehicle has more weight on the front because that's the only way they could get the engine to fit into it.

That is why they engineer the front end to deal with more weight on the front. Getting nowhere, moving on.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by thewarden

That is why they engineer the front end to deal with more weight on the front. Getting nowhere, moving on.

Wrong again. They engineer the rear end to handle more weight in the rear. That's why the rear axles are usually rated higher than the front axle.

[J. Morgan]

Yawn!

I do what I like no matter what the self proclaimed experts have to say about it, and because of that,,,,, my combination kicks a$$.

[Profxd]

Originally Posted by thewarden

Looks like your truck is much more level with the WD bars hooked up. Front suspension and steering geometry returned to normal, not to mention front braking. That's what makes it safer.

Well based on measurements alone there’s no change in height front or rear of the TV. HD trucks are engineered to carry weight at the rear and this is considered in the suspension and tires. Why do you think there’s a pressure differential front to rear? This is to maintain understeer with weight on the rear axle.
My only argument in all this is that people are too reliant on the WDH sway control to correct instability.
People need to understand that stability should be and can be attainable before a WDH is ever applied. Using minimal WD is much better than returning all weight lost to the front axle if the TV and trailer are properly matched. This is a proven fact not my opinion.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by Profxd

Well based on measurements alone there’s no change in height front or rear of the TV. HD trucks are engineered to carry weight at the rear and this is considered in the suspension and tires. Why do you think there’s a pressure differential front to rear? This is to maintain understeer with weight on the rear axle.

My only argument in all this is that people are too reliant on the WDH sway control to correct instability.

People need to understand that stability should be and can be attainable before a WDH is ever applied. Using minimal WD is much better than returning all weight lost to the front axle if the TV and trailer are properly matched. This is a proven fact not my opinion.

You're generalizing to bolster your argument.

Some people like WD because it's a gadget that they think they're supposed to use, some people over use them, and some people use them just right for the purpose they're designed.....

As for me, I use WD just a little bit when my truck bed isn't loaded down and I use it more when I'm towing with 1,200 pounds of stuff in the back of my 1/2 ton.

Mainly, I use WD because it came with my awesome Hensley.....

I don't know why you want to infer that people who don't adopt your model are somehow stupid. That's really not very cool. I mean really, you never really know for sure whether or not the person you are insulting is smarter than you are do you?

[Profxd]

This is not my model, it’s how the PEs want it to be which is why the vehicle manufacturers lowered the amount of FALR %. Every new person on the forum that asks about a WDH is told to return all the weight to the front which is wrong.
I’m not calling anyone stupid and all my posts have been quite civil stating facts and references. I am not the same person as “out of sight”

[gypsydad]

Lets see...some folks do not "think" a WDH is a good idea when towing a larger TT, instead, insisting proper loading is the answer....how again do you get the weight back to the front tires for control without a WDH and full payload including a 1100lb hitch weight?? And what is your plan for controlling the TT when going down a steep grade at highway speeds when a big wind hits your AS from the side and your smaller TV is not heavy enough to control that sudden shift to the rear of your TV? Excuse me, but yes, many of us have drank the "Koolaid"….and many of us have experienced these sudden events while towing our AS's...Telling someone they "don't need WDH" is not cool nor safe. there are several examples on these posts where severe accidents were avoided, and credited to WDH..I suppose you don't feel we should wear seatbelts either?

And for heaven sakes, asserting the WDH industry is driven by greedy sales people is just plain ignorant...IMHO, of course. Repeating another comment...be safe, be smart...

[out of sight]

If you think about it, the roads would all be safer if weight distribution hitches were banned like they are in Europe. This would force people to buy large enough tow vehicles or not to buy over-sized trailers that their tow vehicles can't safely handle.

[Profxd]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Lets see...some folks do not "think" a WDH is a good idea when towing a larger TT, instead, insisting proper loading is the answer....how again do you get the weight back to the front tires for control without a WDH and full payload including a 1100lb hitch weight?? And what is your plan for controlling the TT when going down a steep grade at highway speeds when a big wind hits your AS from the side and your smaller TV is not heavy enough to control that sudden shift to the rear of your TV? Excuse me, but yes, many of us have drank the "Koolaid"….and many of us have experienced these sudden events while towing our AS's...Telling someone they "don't need WDH" is not cool nor safe. there are several examples on these posts where severe accidents were avoided, and credited to WDH..I suppose you don't feel we should wear seatbelts either?

And for heaven sakes, asserting the WDH industry is driven by greedy sales people is just plain ignorant...IMHO, of course. Repeating another comment...be safe, be smart...

Please explain in detail how the wdh will make those situations safer. To think it’s the wdh that does make them safer is exactly my point, it doesn’t.

[thewarden]

Maybe we should also manufacture our trailers with only 5% TW, ban in vehicle brake controllers and lower the maximum speed limit to 50 MPH while towing, just like they do in Europe. NOT!

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Profxd

Please explain in detail how the wdh will make those situations safer. To think it’s the wdh that does make them safer is exactly my point, it doesn’t.

Not worth the effort with a few of you who don't want to get it.Too many YouTube videos out there which you can learn from..or not.

[uraljohn]

Originally Posted by out of sight

If you think about it, the roads would all be safer if weight distribution hitches were banned like they are in Europe. This would force people to buy large enough tow vehicles or not to buy over-sized trailers that their tow vehicles can't safely handle.

The reason WD hitches are not used in Europe is because the braking system on Euro spec trailers are "Surge" brakes. Surge brakes will not work with a WD Hitch. I lived in Europe for many years during my career in the U.S. Army and the hitch design is very different then what is used in the U.S. I drove a Mercedes and towed a 20' Caravan. No WD and No sway control but very different style of hitch. I stayed off the Autobahn and stuck to surface roads. By the way, surge brakes suck.

One of the regrets I have about devoting a good percentage of my life to preserving the freedoms we have in the United States is that folks like you can make statements such as you have in this thread and possibly put peoples safety at risk. You need to take a physics class.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by uraljohn

The reason WD hitches are not used in Europe is because the braking system on Euro spec trailers are "Surge" brakes. Surge brakes will not work with a WD Hitch. I lived in Europe for many years during my career in the U.S. Army and the hitch design is very different then what is used in the U.S. I drove a Mercedes and towed a 20' Caravan. No WD and No sway control but very different style of hitch. I stayed off the Autobahn and stuck to surface roads. By the way, surge brakes suck.

One of the regrets I have about devoting a good percentage of my life to preserving the freedoms we have in the United States is that folks like you can make statements such as you have in this thread and possibly put peoples safety at risk. You need to take a physics class.

What is with these hitch people with their holier than thou attitudes and their endless string of insults and never giving any useful facts? If you knew physics, or even just had some common sense, you could easily see that an undersized vehicle is dangerous no matter how many wd hitches you put on it.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by out of sight

What is with these hitch people with their holier than thou attitudes and their endless string of insults and never giving any useful facts? If you knew physics, or even just had some common sense, you could easily see that an undersized vehicle is dangerous no matter how many wd hitches you put on it.

Oh, I've given you facts......

My trailer pulls like it's on rails. It's awesome!

You see, as an expert in towing, I'm going to have to declare outright, that your combination CAN'T tow better than my combination because my combination tows 100% perfect.

You can't top perfect, no matter how much you spend on your enormous tow vehicle.

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by Profxd

Please explain in detail how the wdh will make those situations safer. To think it’s the wdh that does make them safer is exactly my point, it doesn’t.

What if WDH just makes our combinations more comfortable than your ox cart based setups?

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

What if WDH just makes our combinations more comfortable than your ox cart based setups?

What if we just prefer OUR WAY of towing as opposed to YOUR WAY of towing?

Why would that even matter to you?

Maybe being a busy body isn't a cool look?

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Oh, I've given you facts......

My trailer pulls like it's on rails. It's awesome!

You see, as an expert in towing, I'm going to have to declare outright, that your combination CAN'T tow better than my combination because my combination tows 100% perfect.

You can't top perfect, no matter how much you spend on your enormous tow vehicle.

So, what is your tow vehicle? Do you need a wd hitch to keep from overloading your rear axle?