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Old 07-01-2013, 05:22 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by PharmGeek View Post
I received a PM today (and I have read on threads from others) that their non Hensley/propride in very windy conditions or with trucks passing erc is not a problem (assuming proper install and adjustment)

What the heck are new comers to think with anecdotes that state the polar opposite? And often as such.
Many times you can see people rationalizing their choices by defending them on line. You see it in truck brands, hitches, generators, trailer lengths etc. I have no problems with somebody saying that they like something. I tend to listen more carefully to people who have tried several "brands" and report back.
I find it especially helpful if I hear criticism of one or both brands from a poster. It helps eliminate the "I have it it is the best" syndrome.

It is up to you to discern the difference between a review given by someone because they own it and one given by someone who has found a product that successfully alleviates a concern or problem. I personally dismiss extreme views in most reviews.

My thoughts on hitch choice?

1. It is necessary. You could probably tow a long time without any sway control and have no issues "if" you are lucky. I personally want all the help I can get with the luck thing. I use a sway control hitch.
2. Most (all?) brands offer a solution that helps control sway.
3. Some work better than others at reducing sway.
4. Nothing is going to save your bacon if you really screw up. I use the example of anti lock brakes; in a 20mph corner anti lock will help on a wet day if you need to stop and you are driving 20mph, if you hit the same corner at 50mph in the snow....... well you know what will happen !. Same thing with the hitch!

We switched from an Equalizer to a ProPride. I made the switch after about 6000 miles of driving on the Equalizer and we have about the same number of miles now with the ProPride. I have never used a Reese, Andersen or many of the other choices out there. Between the two I have tried, the winner is the ProPride, hands down! The trailer just feels much better towing with the ProPride. Way, way better! Way way way way way better. I would have never complained about the Equalizer, I only changed after listening to a large number of Airstreamers who said "you will not believe the difference...".

You wont believe the difference!
Bruce

For the uninformed ProPride and Hensley are much the same technology.
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:08 AM   #22
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Uh...I don't get it...
If you observe the trapezoidal geometry, the NON-parallel sides of my "Hensley" tongue depressor model PROJECT towards the blackened area, i.e. they PROJECT the pivot (yaw) point from the hitch ball to the blackened CENTER of the tow vehicle. The center of the tow vehicle can't be pivoted (yawed/wagged/swayed) unless the yaw force is great enough to literally skid all 4 tow vehicle wheels sideways, and if that is so you've gotten yourself WAY out of your envelope and probably shouldn't be driving on any road with the rest of us.
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:37 AM   #23
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the lego model demonstration was fascinating I must say...the "other" hitch model he used though...that was a model without any anti-sway features correct?

Also, really quick point:

"Many times you can see people rationalizing their choices by defending them on line."

Exactly. But does this criticism not plausibly apply one way or the other?

Person A: did not want to shell out the $$$ for propride, rationalizes the compromise by assuming equivalencies.

Person B: shelled out the $$$ for propride, rationalizes the spending by assuming equivalencies.

I will say this though...even the folks that argue that the non-propride/hensley style hitches work just fine, do appear to believe the propride to be plausibly superior.....as in one of the people who PM'ed me, still thought it worth consideration to buy the PPP style hitch if I had the money to do so...

I just think that such a topic that could influence safety so much should undergo proper research to make things clear.

Would you advise that if the dealer buys it they install it...I am likely ill equipped with still to install such a hitch I presume?...although I do have tools at home and such to do alot of basics
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Old 07-01-2013, 07:46 AM   #24
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My rationale when purchasing my Hensley was that with $100,000+ invested in the assembly another $2,500+ was just small change to assure absolute control of the assembly.
That's a great point.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:13 AM   #25
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PharmGeek - you seem so excited about your progress - you've been planning this for a while and getting close to making it happen. You're doing the right things with research.

First things first - I have no skin in this game. Your choice of hitch doesn't affect me financially or personally in any manner.

Second - I'm a rookie too. I have NO OTHER EXPERIENCE to relate to so I can't tell you that the PP is better than all others in my experience. I can only tell you my experience with it has been outstanding. That's not too valuable to you - many people are satisfied with whatever they have and that's great!

Third - I'm not an engineer. It took MONTHS for me to understand what the heck virtual pivot point projection meant and why I should care. Once I grasped the concept that there was a MEANINGFUL difference between hanging the trailer on a single point (coupler/ball) vs the 4-box trapezoid, my mind was made up because in my order of priority, preventing sway from happening was tops.

Fourth - even with that understanding, my decision process is mine, yours is yours. Everyone's mileage varies. I am fortunate (today, knock wood) to be in a position to afford the hitch and given that it met my top criteria and I could afford it - "that was easy". As someone else said (was it mstephens?) going in a different direction does NOT make someone evil, stupid or wrong. Life isn't perfect, there isn't a single perfect answer for most questions, including which hitch, tow vehicle or trailer to buy - too many independent x-factors with intensely personally weights assigned differently by each person.

Based on my admittedly limited personal experience on the criteria I mentioned above, I would highly recommend the PP even at its higher cost. Whatever you decide, I'm not excited or deflated either way - it's your call and so long as you know why you're making your own decision, you'll be pleased. And of course , you'll drive safely and like all of us, will hope "the other guy" doesn't put you in a bad position. FWIW - I have noticed that non-trailer drivers are basically jerks :-)

And FYI - I had my dealer install mine because at the time, I didn't think I could do it. Today, I'm half-tempted to take it off and reinstall it myself and ALMOST convinced I could do it well. ALMOST! I'd probably want to partner up with someone who installed theirs as a reference point. I was my dealer's first ProPride and I do wonder if anything got list in translation (though their service department is excellent!!)

Ok - enough there. You're spending a ton on a new trailer and TV - the ratio on the hitch isn't huge whether Blue Ox, Reese, Andersen, Equal-I-zer or ProPride over the life of your investment. Be crystal clear in your own mind and you'll be fine.
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:13 AM   #26
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[QUOTE= Would you advise that if the dealer buys it they install it...I am likely ill equipped with still to install such a hitch I presume?...although I do have tools at home and such to do alot of basics[/QUOTE]

I can't imagine the PP would be much different...
The owners manual for the Hensley covered the install very well.
It was pretty straightforward...maybe others will offer their experiences.

Steve,

Very good point on the R&R....

I do it every Spring after Winter storage.....40min.



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Old 07-01-2013, 08:53 AM   #27
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"My rationale when purchasing my Hensley was that with $100,000+ invested in the assembly another $2,500+ was just small change to assure absolute control of the assembly."

Respectfully, I find this rationale highly problematic.

The question of "can I afford this" is a seperate question than "does it work much better" or "does it provide a meaningful pragmatic improvement over some other hitch?"

I have no issue with the cost of the hitch...if I decide to believe that it may be more effective based on testimonials alone here on this forum, I can afford the hitch. If I chose to forgo purchasing the hitch, it would be under the idea that I still am keeping skepticism that it is truly necessary and that other hitches will provide "a proper safety margin for my family". Of course If I did opt out of the PP style, I would watch very carefully for any unsafe problems...and in that example..I would simply shell out the money.

My point is:

I do not mind shelling out the money if I am convinced the money is well spent.

I do mind shelling out the money if I think there is a risk of it being entirely superfluous.

Frankly, I am leaning a tad toward purchasing the PP hitch at this point I suppose...but I want to do a bit more digging on the subject.

I am wary of anecdotes, but it does seem clear that folks who have owned several hitches really *enjoy* pulling their trailor with this hitch...perhaps if I even assume it is superfluous, but that the pulling is that much more enjoyable...it is worth it..and then IF it is truly safer, then I will gain that benefit as well.

The construction of it does seem intuitively more up to the task perhaps...but being that I am mechanically rather ignorant, intuitions kinda induce skepticism...

Thanks for all of the input so far everyone...

Let me ask this again, how much should I expect to pay the dealer to purchase and install this thing? If I get serious about this, then I am going to need to consider this. Rolling it into my loan will be perhaps (for now) much less painful and worth considering.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:25 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmGeek View Post

I am wary of anecdotes, but it does seem clear that folks who have owned several hitches really *enjoy* pulling their trailor with this hitch...perhaps if I even assume it is superfluous, but that the pulling is that much more enjoyable...it is worth it..and then IF it is truly safer, then I will gain that benefit as well.
Back on the anecdotes eh, Geek?

The trouble is that no one ever gives any of these devices a thorough, independent test; there's just not enough money in it I guess. As a result you have to listen to what others say, their anecdotes, and see if you can sort things out from there.

I've been lucky in having the services of someone who has done extensive testing over a considerable period of time. He will admit that it's not independent because he sells specific brand hitches, but he has the best knowledge base of anyone in the business, I think, and if he says something will work then he's likely right. If it won't, he'll tell you why and point you to a solution that will.

From what I hear, Hensley and ProPride are the best and I've heard very little against either of those products. It doesn't mean that I'm rushing out to get one but if I was going to upgrade my hitch, I'd start looking there.
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:51 AM   #29
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Well just to beat a dead horse. I am on the other side of the spectrum when it comes to what I can afford. I pulled my 69 ambassador for 2 years on bad axles and just ball and hitch. I have "up graded" to an eaz- lift system with friction anti sway bar. It was less than $200 from adventure RV. It tows great with this system, just a little sway in high winds or when a big rig goes screaming by. Is the $2500 hitch better? Well for the cost I'm sure it is.

But since I paid 3k for the trailer, and have 3k into it, it's hard to justify 2k just for a hitch. It's all point of reference. Later down the road I'll problem upgrade to a better system like a Reece, but for now it works just fine. How safe is safe? Well I think other factor play a larger role. Driving habits, up keep, tire pressure...
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Old 07-01-2013, 09:53 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PharmGeek View Post
"My rationale when purchasing my Hensley was that with $100,000+ invested in the assembly another $2,500+ was just small change to assure absolute control of the assembly."

Respectfully, I find this rationale highly problematic.

The question of "can I afford this" is a seperate question than "does it work much better" or "does it provide a meaningful pragmatic improvement over some other hitch?"

I have no issue with the cost of the hitch...if I decide to believe that it may be more effective based on testimonials alone here on this forum, I can afford the hitch. If I chose to forgo purchasing the hitch, it would be under the idea that I still am keeping skepticism that it is truly necessary and that other hitches will provide "a proper safety margin for my family". Of course If I did opt out of the PP style, I would watch very carefully for any unsafe problems...and in that example..I would simply shell out the money.

My point is:

I do not mind shelling out the money if I am convinced the money is well spent.

I do mind shelling out the money if I think there is a risk of it being entirely superfluous.

Frankly, I am leaning a tad toward purchasing the PP hitch at this point I suppose...but I want to do a bit more digging on the subject.

I am wary of anecdotes, but it does seem clear that folks who have owned several hitches really *enjoy* pulling their trailor with this hitch...perhaps if I even assume it is superfluous, but that the pulling is that much more enjoyable...it is worth it..and then IF it is truly safer, then I will gain that benefit as well.

The construction of it does seem intuitively more up to the task perhaps...but being that I am mechanically rather ignorant, intuitions kinda induce skepticism...

Thanks for all of the input so far everyone...

Let me ask this again, how much should I expect to pay the dealer to purchase and install this thing? If I get serious about this, then I am going to need to consider this. Rolling it into my loan will be perhaps (for now) much less painful and worth considering.
Please reference magenta bolded above. You can readily address those statements by just copying my "model" pictured above. It might take an hour or so to gather materials and assemble, but once fabricated it will leave you with NO DOUBT as to the superiority of the design; and if you don't fabricate one you'll probably spend an equivalent amount of time on further research which still won't fully satisfy you.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:59 AM   #31
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But since I paid 3k for the trailer, and have 3k into it, it's hard to justify 2k just for a hitch. It's all point of reference. Later down the road I'll problem upgrade to a better system like a Reece, but for now it works just fine. How safe is safe? Well I think other factor play a larger role. Driving habits, up keep, tire pressure...
This is sort of the opposite argument than that made earlier...

One earlier is "if you can afford it, why not"

This one is "I cannot afford it or cannot justify the expense based on relative cost of the trailer"

Keep in mind, I am using only a sort of logic 101 here when I state this...but lets imagine that the PP hitch was found to be "significantly safer" than other hitches. With "significant" meeting some statistical threshold that is "meaningful".

In this hypothetical, many many people could pull and indeed if very careful AND they were perhaps lucky, they would not encounter a scenario to put them into the statistics that created the outcome of "significantly safer"...but some "significant" number of folks would have prevented bodily harm, death, damages to TV or TT etc...

In this hypothetical...(again hypothetical, as we do not have this research) - one would be foolish to pull around such things and claim they cannot afford it. There wouuld be no way perhaps to know if you were in the "unlucky" group and if you "skimped" and went for less then you could face many costs associated with the "safety gamble" (again, in this hypotehtical).

So even if the trailer costed $1.00, it would in that hypothetical make solid sense to buy a $2,500 dollar trailer....this only under the assumption that it is "significantly safer" and by investing that money you save yourself and others bodily harm, vehicular/TT damages, and even death. In that hypothetical, cost of a trailer or level of income of an operator would have no bearing on what should drive the decision...this would leave a person unable to afford 2500 dollars the decision to:

1) not pull a trailer that "needed" this hitch
or
2) pull the trailer and accept the risk that is clearly demonstrated (in this hypothetical).

(*I would add that in this hypothetical study, we would control it by having all highly qualified experienced capable drivers, and control for many other variables*).

PROBLEM is though is that we do not have such research...which leaves people to reasonably speculate that "if I drive safe, not fast, am careful, than my current hitch will provide a margin of safety that is entirely acceptable"....couple that with the readily available anecdotal evidence that folks have little or no sway with their setups...people are not making an unreasonable leap with this I think.
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Old 07-01-2013, 11:38 AM   #32
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Yep so at the end of the day it boils down to what you can or willing to afford, and personal preference.

On a side note I thought I was back in my statistics class for moment when I was reading your post!
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:08 PM   #33
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well, I will tell you about my trial on the road. I had an inexpensive WD hitch that came with the trailer. It worked, I thought fine, until I got new tires on the truck then the sway began - big time. It was awful. The only thing we (my family) could think of was that the thicker tread allowed for more movement. They are the michelin load E LTX- good tires.
So, I ended up with a Pro Pride hitch. We just got back from a 1600 mile trip with the hitch. Wow, how nice. ANYTHING could pass me and the tow vehicle and trailer were one. The old hitch before the tires would sway a bit after a pass but straighten out. With the new tires I would have to counter steer and hang on. All hitches will pull but it is the roadworthiness that matters.
I've noticed that new Michelin LTX-E tires seem to have an unstable feel when new. I've experienced that on pick-up trucks, Sprinter Van AS RV and then on my 2013 International 19. It can be disconcerting but normally goes away once the tires settle in with use. The sensation went away completely on the trailer after about 1500 miles.

I'm using a Husky WD system with sway control. My 2013 Dodge RAM 1500 also has built-in electronic sway control as part of the towing package. I haven't experienced huge winds yet but barely feel moderate side winds or trucks and buses as they pass.

My AS dealer at their main location did a very poor job of setting up and tuning my WD system. The service manager at one of their satellite locations cared enough to spend time on three occasions to help. The original bars were way to heavy and were beating up the trailer, and the trailer sat high in front. He swapped out the bars for the correct lighter ones and did a thorough job of showing me how to tune the system for the load.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:19 PM   #34
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I do mind shelling out the money if I think there is a risk of it being entirely superfluous.

Frankly, I am leaning a tad toward purchasing the PP hitch at this point I suppose...but I want to do a bit more digging on the subject.
I tow with a Reese hitch with friction sway now, but here are some of the reasons I'm leaning toward a ProPride when it's time to replace the hitch. First, I think there is some confirmation bias when it comes to hitches, but at the same time I think the cost of the PPP hitches would override that.

1. Everyone that has a Hensley/ProPride loves them. Seriously, try to find someone that's upset with their PPP hitch...it's hard. Given the cost, I would expect that the standards are high and some people would be very angry if they didn't feel it was worth the money, just like people complain about the quality of their new Airstreams when they have problems. But where are those people and those posts for the PPP hitches?

2. Related to #1 - it's hard to find them used. Unless you buy them with a trailer, they don't seem to come up for sale that often. In part that's probably because they're less prevalent, but even still the number for sale seems low. I admit I don't watch closely for them, but when I've looked I usually see other brands but only rarely do I see a PPP for sale used.

These imply to me that people love their PPP hitches, beyond what you'd expect simply because they put a lot of money into them. If it didn't perform well above other brands of hitches, why wouldn't they sell it to some other sucker, get back most of their investment, and buy a cheaper brand?

3. Sean from ProPride hangs out on the forums, helping people, just like the Honda hangs out in the generator forum. I want to encourage that.
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Old 07-01-2013, 02:27 PM   #35
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I watched the vids of the process to hook up and unhook. Looks quite a bit more difficult than a Reece hitch. I would like to hear from some PP owners on what it is like to connect and disconnect.
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:19 PM   #36
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Connections are all about alignment. Align it, back in, hook up, set the weight distribution, and go. There are a several methods people use, find one that works for you.

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Old 07-01-2013, 04:35 PM   #37
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I agree with Doug. I've had two unbearably frustrating hitching experiences because I didn't fully grasp the alignment process. More often than not, on my own, I can hitch up in 5 minutes or less. If I forget to line up level and ensure WD is not changing the angle of the hitch, I shoot myself in the foot to some extent - but having done that twice, I get it much faster. :-)
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:37 PM   #38
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I spent some time today reading on other sites - its hard to shake off some of the points made above and dismiss them.

My tentative plan will be to use the blue ox or Reese or whatever for a bit and see how it works for me - and if I do not like - I will simply buy the PP cash.

On the other hand - if I can get my dealer to consider discounting the PP - I may do that - i think he will balk - we will see
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Old 07-01-2013, 04:42 PM   #39
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A few non-anecdotal considerations.

All the friction sway control hitches react to sway after it begins. Sway cannot happen with PPP hitches.

In crosswinds, gusts, and trucks passing you, the trailer moves at least slightly out of the alignment with the tow vehicle using friction sway control hitches. With PPP hitches the trailer and tow vehicle remain in alignment.

With friction sway control hitches the trailer pivot point is at the ball/coupler. With PPP hitches the pivot point is about 50" forward, near or at the axle; the trailer cannot initiate a movement, only the tow vehicle can.

With Hensley/ProPride a range of weight distribution bars are available appropriate to the rig, and they are easily adjustable at each hookup for perfect weight distribution to ensure the best handling and braking of the rig.

These factors make the PPP hitches more than a nudge ahead in safety, control, and comfort; it's a long leap ahead.

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Old 07-01-2013, 05:36 PM   #40
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Without controlled research by a 3rd party it is by definition anecdotal that other hitches are significantly less safe than PP

Not to say the anecdotal reports do not constitute compelling enough evidence to "sway" me
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