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Old 07-14-2016, 01:20 PM   #101
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Took a bit more digging, and Car and Driver hasn't done a comparison test since 2012

All three crew cab diesels went through the slalom at above 37.9 (Ford) the Chevy did it averaging the best (39.7MPH) and the Ram at 39.1 MPH

When looking at their skid plate test numbers they only marginally lower than their smaller half-tons (which are near identical to the minivans). All pulling about .7Gs of road hugging.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...s-and-info.pdf

For a bit more background on Car and Driver's slalom and skid plate test, and a bit of fun comparison of numbers of potential tow vehicles compared to a Porsche coupe:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ecourse-page-2

So a pair of Porsches can pull a G on the skid plate and pull hit the slalom averaging over 60MPH. No surprise they are a good handling car, but they are a sports car not a tow vehicle.

How about a station wagon for a TV:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...d-specs-page-5

Marginally better speeds in the slalom and about a tenth of another G on the skid plate.

But what if we are considering a luxury SUV from 2015 to 2017 model years?

The 2017 Audi Q7 had the top speed (compared to a BMW X5, Land Rover Sport, and Volvo XC90 TC) in the Slalom, 36.9MPH and .85G on the skid plate. So more road hugging than a pickup but less steering and body control than even the crew cab diesels!

Lastly lets look at some sedans. How about the north of $60K variety. Here is a BMW, Benz, and Cadi:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-5

All perform well in the slalom (averaging about 45 mph) and the skid plate (all right at a g). So of course, a high-end powerful modern sedan handles almost as good as a sport car and has plenty of power. Now can someone write to Cadillac, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW and convince them they need to go pull the Davis Dam for the towing test? I want to know if their gearing can climb a grade without blowing up or overheating, and I still want my AC while doing it.

The numbers show that a both half-tonpickups and crew cab diesels handle safely. They all steer will and have good grip.They are also all "tow-tested" so the days of "magic" tow ratings are going away. All offer better transmission, and the diesels now all have integrated engine brakes, which are the absolute cats meow for towing. So pick what you want everyone, but please go dig up the performance data on what you are picking as you can see Car and Driver has done the research for us, we just have to do the homework.
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Old 07-14-2016, 05:34 PM   #102
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We used this advice from our Airstream Owners Manual to help select a proper tow vehicle for our Airstreams. Has worked well, no issues with damages or components coming loose in seven years towing throughout the country each year.

"WARNING
Springs that are too stiff can hinder the action of the weight equalizing hitch and prevent the transfer of weight to the front of the vehicle.

NOTE
Only use springs heavy enough to support your loaded vehicle (not including trailer). Having a too harsh spring rate on your tow vehicle will only shorten the life of the tow vehicle and trailer, and will cause your trips to be less enjoyable."
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Old 07-14-2016, 05:36 PM   #103
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This Saturday I have scheduled a "weigh in". I am taking my AS to my nearest CAT scale to have it weighed. Since we have been using it for several weeks, I am sure it is loaded with everything we need for camping.

The nearest CAT scale is at a Pilot Travel Center 25 miles away. So we will take this opportunity to test our unhooking and hitching procedures as well. It will be like a "dry run" before our first trip in August.

CAT Scales have an iPhone app which I downloaded and will use to pay the $10 and change it costs to weigh my trailer and truck.

My truck weighs 5527 (give or take a couple of pounds) according to the 2013 Escalade brochure. My wife will be with me, I weigh a bit, but I took the back seats out, so I am going to go with 5600 pounds as my tow vehicle weight. Payload is 1600, and towing capacity is 8300. So, 8300 + 5600 = 13900. So if I come in at or under 13,900, I will be feeling pretty good. There are a couple other weights (like payload, tongue weight, axle weights, etc.) I need to look at, but this is the big one.

The GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) of my Airstream is 8800. This means the Airstream should not weigh more than 8800 pounds when fully loaded. The base weight of the Airstream is 6400 pounds without water or cargo per the Airstream brochure. That means the Airstream has a 2400 cargo/water carrying capacity.

But since my tow vehicle is rated for 8300 pounds, I am planning not to exceed that. I can carry 1900 pounds of cargo/water. I may be close to that.

My first weight exercise will be to weigh my entire setup (tow vehicle and trailer) and aim to come in at or below 13900 pounds for both. There are subsequent weight exercises I need to do, but this will be the first big one.
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Old 07-14-2016, 06:19 PM   #104
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Look forward to your real world results! curious to see how your yellow sticker compares to your brochure data on curb weight and payload available for your specific truck build.
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Old 07-14-2016, 06:31 PM   #105
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I'm curious to see the numbers as well. My empty tow vehicle, with fuel tank full, is around 300# heavier (per CAT scale) than the published curb weight. Consequently, the payload is around 300# less than the published figure (nearly matches the payload number of the yellow door sticker).
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Old 07-14-2016, 08:05 PM   #106
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I'm curious to see the numbers as well. My empty tow vehicle, with fuel tank full, is around 300# heavier (per CAT scale) than the published curb weight. Consequently, the payload is around 300# less than the published figure (nearly matches the payload number of the yellow door sticker).

450-lbs for driver, full fuel and permanent items in solo TV is a rule of thumb basic in looking at curb weight figures.

WHERE the weight sits is more important (as are axle/tire ratings) as to scale readings. Almost 60/40 FF/RR for otherwise empty pickups, and trending down closer to 50/50 on better tow vehicles.

My solo run-around weight is 7,940-lbs on the pickup (versus 6,800-lbs published). But the loading is within 40-lbs at each wheel all around, solo. Keeping weight ahead of the rear axle is my usual problem, then.

Towing, some stuff comes out of the trailer to the truck and truck to trailer on others.

The other rule of thumb is that a WDH will leave about 67-75% of TW on the TV after lash-up (given the attempt to restore FA to solo value).

"Cargo Capacity" has more to do with what the OEMs feel is sufficient. Not with what is possible.

Tire loads all around are what matter. And finding "best" for TV rear axle via real numbers is the experiment.

Depending on hitch receiver strength (usually not too good unlike the custom receivers of long ago) frame flex is revealed in this way.
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Old 07-15-2016, 07:03 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Thiss View Post
Took a bit more digging, and Car and Driver hasn't done a comparison test since 2012

All three crew cab diesels went through the slalom at above 37.9 (Ford) the Chevy did it averaging the best (39.7MPH) and the Ram at 39.1 MPH

When looking at their skid plate test numbers they only marginally lower than their smaller half-tons (which are near identical to the minivans). All pulling about .7Gs of road hugging.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...s-and-info.pdf

For a bit more background on Car and Driver's slalom and skid plate test, and a bit of fun comparison of numbers of potential tow vehicles compared to a Porsche coupe:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ecourse-page-2

So a pair of Porsches can pull a G on the skid plate and pull hit the slalom averaging over 60MPH. No surprise they are a good handling car, but they are a sports car not a tow vehicle.

How about a station wagon for a TV:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...d-specs-page-5

Marginally better speeds in the slalom and about a tenth of another G on the skid plate.

But what if we are considering a luxury SUV from 2015 to 2017 model years?

The 2017 Audi Q7 had the top speed (compared to a BMW X5, Land Rover Sport, and Volvo XC90 TC) in the Slalom, 36.9MPH and .85G on the skid plate. So more road hugging than a pickup but less steering and body control than even the crew cab diesels!

Lastly lets look at some sedans. How about the north of $60K variety. Here is a BMW, Benz, and Cadi:

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...e-specs-page-5

All perform well in the slalom (averaging about 45 mph) and the skid plate (all right at a g). So of course, a high-end powerful modern sedan handles almost as good as a sport car and has plenty of power. Now can someone write to Cadillac, Mercedes-Benz, and BMW and convince them they need to go pull the Davis Dam for the towing test? I want to know if their gearing can climb a grade without blowing up or overheating, and I still want my AC while doing it.

The numbers show that a both half-tonpickups and crew cab diesels handle safely. They all steer will and have good grip.They are also all "tow-tested" so the days of "magic" tow ratings are going away. All offer better transmission, and the diesels now all have integrated engine brakes, which are the absolute cats meow for towing. So pick what you want everyone, but please go dig up the performance data on what you are picking as you can see Car and Driver has done the research for us, we just have to do the homework.
Thanks for the links. Some on here will ignore what you posted. We all have pre conceived opinions, some will not change those even when given the facts.
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Old 07-15-2016, 08:14 AM   #108
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Research is this forum will show that long-time Airstream repair shop owners Inland Andy of Inland RV in California and Andrew Thomson of Can-Am RV in Ontario, as well as your Airstream Owners Manual advise heavy duty tow vehicle suspensions and heavy unsuspended weight may beat the hull out of your Airstream over time. Some reading in the "my cheap Airstream is coming apart" threads may be revealing.

Hitch type and setup can completely alter the quality and safety of your Airstream towing experience. Usually ignored in these discussions, and this one is no different. Ask those who use pivot point projection hitches how their Airstream behaves behind their tow vehicle.

Consider the towing combination as a unit when selecting a tow vehicle for your Airstream. Tow vehicle, hitch type and setup, and Airstream do well when well-matched too each other. Also consider actual towing needs for you. Your Airstream travel may be quite different than the other guy; match your setup to your own lifestyle.
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Old 07-15-2016, 08:24 AM   #109
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I think I'll go with 5800 instead of 5600 for my TV weight based on feedback from this thread. This will impact my payload calculations more than anything, but I'm not worried too much by a couple hundred pounds. I do want to be as accurate as possible so I know where I'm at.

My payload is 1600, so with my wife and my dog and me, and a couple of bags, I think I'm at max. Which is fine for us since that's all we need to carry. My biggest concern is not exceeding GVWR on the AS.
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Old 07-15-2016, 09:44 AM   #110
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I think I'll go with 5800 instead of 5600 for my TV weight based on feedback from this thread. This will impact my payload calculations more than anything, but I'm not worried too much by a couple hundred pounds. I do want to be as accurate as possible so I know where I'm at.

My payload is 1600, so with my wife and my dog and me, and a couple of bags, I think I'm at max. Which is fine for us since that's all we need to carry. My biggest concern is not exceeding GVWR on the AS.

Why not just look at the yellow sticker on your door for actual weight and payload?
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:05 AM   #111
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Why not just look at the yellow sticker on your door for actual weight and payload?
I second this. 1600# seems a bit high. I was at the NY auto show a few months back. Checked the payload sticker of all large/midsize SUVs I saw. Could not find an SUV with more than 1350# of payload. Mid size SUVs mostly had around 1000# of payload, and large SUVs around 1300#. Granted some were fully loaded trims.
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Old 07-15-2016, 10:45 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post
Research is this forum will show that long-time Airstream repair shop owners Inland Andy of Inland RV in California and Andrew Thomson of Can-Am RV in Ontario, as well as your Airstream Owners Manual advise heavy duty tow vehicle suspensions and heavy unsuspended weight may beat the hull out of your Airstream over time. Some reading in the "my cheap Airstream is coming apart" threads may be revealing.

Hitch type and setup can completely alter the quality and safety of your Airstream towing experience. Usually ignored in these discussions, and this one is no different. Ask those who use pivot point projection hitches how their Airstream behaves behind their tow vehicle.

Consider the towing combination as a unit when selecting a tow vehicle for your Airstream. Tow vehicle, hitch type and setup, and Airstream do well when well-matched too each other. Also consider actual towing needs for you. Your Airstream travel may be quite different than the other guy; match your setup to your own lifestyle.

Could be, but after 8 years towing our 31 footer with a 2500HD diesel for about 37,000 miles, I have yet to see any indication - no popped rivets or anything of that nature.

I will admit we have had the odd drawer come unlatched en route, but that doesn't seem unusual. Centramatics and some heavier spring latches have resolved that problem.

I do use a Hensley, but I'm not sure that would make any difference in ride aulity compared to other types of weight distributing hitch.


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Old 07-15-2016, 11:03 AM   #113
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The numbers show that a both half-tonpickups and crew cab diesels handle safely. They all steer will and have good grip.They are also all "tow-tested" so the days of "magic" tow ratings are going away. All offer better transmission, and the diesels now all have integrated engine brakes, which are the absolute cats meow for towing. So pick what you want everyone, but please go dig up the performance data on what you are picking as you can see Car and Driver has done the research for us, we just have to do the homework.
Be careful comparing skid pad numbers which are measured on a perfectly smooth surface, for vehicles with very different suspension designs. The F250 has two live axles. Modern sport utilities have fully independent suspension, often with active dampers. How do you think the comparison would look on real world roads? I see the F250 needs 246 feet to stop from 70, without a trailer. Take 70 feet off that for a good sport utility. I think an F250 can be safe, driven appropriately, but not as safe as a sport utility.

The F250 looks good if you need to carry that much cargo, or tow over 10,000 lbs. My tow vehicle has to serve as daily transport for 75% of the time, so an F250 loses points.

Jeff
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Old 07-15-2016, 11:13 AM   #114
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1600# seems a bit high. I was at the NY auto show a few months back. Checked the payload sticker of all large/midsize SUVs I saw. Could not find an SUV with more than 1350# of payload. Mid size SUVs mostly had around 1000# of payload, and large SUVs around 1300#. Granted some were fully loaded trims.
I was just at the dealer comparing the payload between an F-150 Platinum and F-250 Platinum Diesel (2016's) and their payload was within 100lbs of each other, ~1600 and ~1700, respectively.

Placed an order for a 2017 F-350 because of this. I expect the 2017 F-250 to gain payload but not enough to cover the 2500-2800 lb payload I require.
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Old 07-15-2016, 11:22 AM   #115
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Why comprise payload for "softer suspension" when they have all manner of new air hitches that help soften the connection between the Airstream and pickup?

Also, isn't 90-85% of the the trailer weight supposed to be supported by its own suspension system? If I am correct on the proper wieght distribution between hitch and axles, how does 10-15 % of the trailer wieght harm the trailer?

Regarding the tow vehicle itself, doesn't the "softer" suspension compromise all of the "handling" that we were trying to gain by using a lighter tow vehicle. I can't understand the logic of overloading a vehicle and then expecting to perform better than an under loaded vehicle.

Is it not true that Wally himself said the International Harvester pickup with a 345 V8 and 410 geared rear end was the "best tow vehicle"? Have any of you ever ridden in one? It's not soft.

I can without a doubt tell you the Ram 3500 ride feel is softer than a Kia Optima, a Subaro Forester, and is almost identical to a Jeep Grand Cherokee. My 1991 Dodge rode rough. I had the springs rebuilt and it road softer, I then gutted that susepension and drivetrain and put it is a crew cab of the same body style and it got softer yet. Which brings me to a point not addressed yet. Wheelbase is a considerable factor in the ride feel and handling of a vehicle. It is also a considerable factor keeping a vehicle going in the intended direction.

Some of the observations in contrast to the pickup voting block are not wrong; however, they are dated. Just like a former thread when a member called diesels "stinky." They clearly haven't fired up a current diesel offering, and I don't think a lot of the people who claim that pickups ride rough or don't "handle" have driven one lately; especially the Cadillac like GMs.

Every time I read the post before bed, I toss and turn all night thinking "I should have bought the Hemi Scat Pack Charger" I guess I will have to live with my compromised Ram 3500. Hopefully the Cummins hum can lul me into a sweet state of acceptance.
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Old 07-15-2016, 11:32 AM   #116
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Placed an order for a 2017 F-350 because of this. I expect the 2017 F-250 to gain payload but not enough to cover the 2500-2800 lb payload I require.
Congratulations!

Did you pick a diesel or gas?
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Old 07-15-2016, 12:00 PM   #117
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Congratulations!

Did you pick a diesel or gas?

Thanks I went with the diesel, pretty much everything except the sunroof. All the tow technology will be a great supplement and wing man to what I expect to be leisurely travel with no concern about performance.

I already have an overweight 4x4 ambulance that is a wild ride to drive and stop, and do not want that same experience for on road adventures.

I hear the adaptive steering in this thing is great, eliminating a full 2.5 turns of the wheel at low speed maneuvering.

I would have a 2500 Denali but the dealer wouldn't budge off the internet price, even after schooling them on payload and no one knowing what the yellow sticker was for, including the "commercial truck guy" told me that the sticker was wrong and he "doesn't know why its on there."
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Old 07-15-2016, 12:07 PM   #118
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How do you think the comparison would look on real world roads? I see the F250 needs 246 feet to stop from 70, without a trailer. Take 70 feet off that for a good sport utility. I think an F250 can be safe, driven appropriately, but not as safe as a sport utility.

The F250 looks good if you need to carry that much cargo, or tow over 10,000 lbs. My tow vehicle has to serve as daily transport for 75% of the time, so an F250 loses points.

Jeff
If we can't trust a test to transfer to real world then the test is flawed, and maybe that is the case with the skid plate. The slalom numbers for the pickups are pretty solid though.

Fair enough on the daily driver and TV combo. That's why they made SUVs right? Utility vehicle. Like a Utility baseball player they do several things well enough to be serviceable.

Regarding breaking, there is more to stopping than 70-0 distance. The Ford has an engine brake if you buy the diesel. When towing the Ford will stop the trailer easier and the trailer brakes won't be smoked. Also, it will hold a speed down the grade.

Thanks for the conversation folks. I am pulling out to go camping. I am going to quit now before Murphy jumps in and some tragic thing happens with my set up; which is still new enough to go wrong. Time will tell if it is right. Safe driving everyone and have a great weekend!
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Old 07-16-2016, 11:18 AM   #119
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"Hopefully the Cummins hum can lul me into a sweet state of acceptance."

Got to be a dream song there somewhere.

Hear that truck a hummin,
flying around the bend,
got to be a Cummins,
showing off for friends.

Next?
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Old 07-16-2016, 11:31 AM   #120
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Towing capability basics.

We weighed our Airstream today. The total gross weight of AS and TV was 13,560. That's 500 pounds short of my 14,100 pound limit.

The rear axle weight came in at 3980. My GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) for my rear axle is 4200.

My front axle weight came in at 2920. The GAWR for my from axle is 3250.

The AS axle weight came in at 6660.

So it looks like I don't need to run out and buy a new truck. Thank God.



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