Tow vehicle recommendation for 23’ AS

[gypsydad]

You have many suggestions here on good towing vehicles for the 23' AS...you need to decide your budget, and do some research on which SUV or pickup you think you may like. Then go explore the various TV's and drive around to see how you like the way they handle/turn radius/and "payload sticker". Just remember: dealer sales folks are not the smartest bunch when it comes to towing..

Couple points stick out; if you are thinking of camping "off grid" without power a lot, you may need a generator if solar is not enough. Also consider carrying a BBQ grill, fire wood, camp chairs, etc. An SUV can work using containers for wood, bbq, and a small Honda 2200 type propane generator will eliminate gas/exhaust fumes inside when traveling. What ever you decide on, make sure it has the max towing package. Also check the payload on the "door sticker" has at least 1500 lbs or more.

I think the 23' is a nice size AS, especially with the twin beds, if your just 2 folks and without a big dog...wife thinks it's too small for us...my close single friend bought one new few years back and now has a 25'...said it was too small for him and he has no dog. As mentioned, some folks love em, and others trade up to a 25' or larger...but thats the consideration. If you have not spent any time in a 23' vs a 25', suggest you consider starting there at the dealer...go spend some time in each; imagine how you would use it, from cooking, to bathroom, to actually laying in the bed; walk around and sit at the dinette; lounge like you would be watching TV or using your computer at the table. Thats an important part of the decision, IMHO.

You have lots of data here..now get to it and report back!

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by ATaber

Our 2020 Ford F150 XLT EcoBost 3.5 liter V6 with Max Tow Package provides 13,200 lbs towing and maximum payload of 3,230 pounds. The twin turbos are really impressive.
Works great for two of us to tow our 2018 25 ft FC FTB. We get round 11 mpg when towing on hills and flat. About 18 mpg around town without trailer and on highway without trailer about 23 mpg. The 5.5 ft bed with a cap caries our electric bikes upright with the front wheel removed. Good room for other items between the bikes on a pull out tray for easy access.

I'm surprised someone didn't comment on the claim that his F150 has 3,230 pounds of payload. Those are web specs on zero option truck that no one that I know have seen an F150 truck with that much payload. The payload for YOUR truck is listed on the door jam on the yellow sticker and I bet it around half of the 3,230 pounds. I have seen F150 between 1200 pounds and 2400 pounds depending on options.

[JetstreamAS]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

I'm surprised someone didn't comment on the claim that his F150 has 3,230 pounds of payload. Those are web specs on zero option truck that no one that I know have seen an F150 truck with that much payload. The payload for YOUR truck is listed on the door jam on the yellow sticker and I bet it around half of the 3,230 pounds. I have seen F150 between 1200 pounds and 2400 pounds depending on options.

Agreed. This is possible but highly unlikely.

https://www.f150forum.com/f129/xlt-p...ickers-491650/

https://www.f150forum.com/f2/payload-sticker-471890/

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/thre...-stickers.595/

[B17drvr]

I pull with an F150. If I didn’t own an airstream I would still be driving a truck. That’s all I’ve ever driven in no the last 40 years. If I want something fun to drive, I go out for a ride in one of my mustangs.

[scho7623]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

You have many suggestions here on good towing vehicles for the 23' AS...you need to decide your budget, and do some research on which SUV or pickup you think you may like. Then go explore the various TV's and drive around to see how you like the way they handle/turn radius/and "payload sticker". Just remember: dealer sales folks are not the smartest bunch when it comes to towing..

Couple points stick out; if you are thinking of camping "off grid" without power a lot, you may need a generator if solar is not enough. Also consider carrying a BBQ grill, fire wood, camp chairs, etc. An SUV can work using containers for wood, bbq, and a small Honda 2200 type propane generator will eliminate gas/exhaust fumes inside when traveling. What ever you decide on, make sure it has the max towing package. Also check the payload on the "door sticker" has at least 1500 lbs or more.

I think the 23' is a nice size AS, especially with the twin beds, if your just 2 folks and without a big dog...wife thinks it's too small for us...my close single friend bought one new few years back and now has a 25'...said it was too small for him and he has no dog. As mentioned, some folks love em, and others trade up to a 25' or larger...but thats the consideration. If you have not spent any time in a 23' vs a 25', suggest you consider starting there at the dealer...go spend some time in each; imagine how you would use it, from cooking, to bathroom, to actually laying in the bed; walk around and sit at the dinette; lounge like you would be watching TV or using your computer at the table. Thats an important part of the decision, IMHO.

You have lots of data here..now get to it and report back!

Thanks, those are all great points. I haven't considered an SUV as a tow vehicle, but then now I'm actually seriously considering an SUV. I particularly like the fact that the cargo space is inside and weatherproof. I'd have to install a cap on the truck bed to make it weatherproof, and that seems a lot of efforts and money. The interior of SUV seems much nicer and more luxurious than trucks as well. Some folks suggested the Ford Expedition, so I'm currently looking into it. It is more expensive than a truck though. I'll explore more and see if it's worth more money.

[richard5933]

Don't overlook the used market for SUVs. There are lots of good used vehicles out there, and if you have thoughts of upgrading to a larger trailer at some point a 3/4-ton SUV like my Suburban 2500 is a great idea but they're only available used.

[foobar]

Lots of great advice by previous posters.

Don't neglect consideration of used tow vehicles as well. Lot's of well maintained older vehicles out there that can help preserve your bank account balances and save $ for all the 'stuff' you will need/want to buy for the Airstream.

While my trailer is a wee bit bigger and heavier than what you are purchasing, I will provide our tow vehicle + trailer information in order to illustrate the range of options that you have available. I.e. If my trailer and tow vehicle combination works well for me, then an SUV plus a 23ft Airstream will work well for you too.

Bit of background to provide context:

In January of this year, the missus and I started to seriously consider purchasing a travel trailer. We looked at a number of stapled together trailers and were not pleased with the quality of the construction. We wanted something that would last a long time with a relatively lower level of repair/maintenance. Then we visited an Airstream dealer and the decision on what kind of trailer to buy became obvious :-)

Next question we had to answer was... Which Airstream to buy and what tow vehicle do we need to pair it with?

We really liked the Globetrotter trim level and interiors so that was an easy call to make.

So, what size GT should we get? We wanted dual axles, so we looked at trailers 23' and larger. We want to be able to stay in as many national parks as possible, so that excludes 30+' trailers. We liked the extra trailer interior volume provided by the wide body Airstream, so that knocked out the 23' globetrotter. At this point, the decision was down to the 25' and 27' globetrotter options.

Now, it was time to start thinking about tow vehicles before we finalized our trailer choice.

We started by looking at F150 models and quickly realized that payload was going to be a challenge for the higher trim levels and most local dealers were asking well above msrp for the trucks on the lots in 2022. Argh!!!

We currently own a 2016 Porsche Cayenne S that we had purchased used in 2021 with 45K miles on it. On a lark, I checked the tow specs on the Cayenne on the web.

GVWR = 6305lbs
Base vehicle weight = 4597lbs
Potential payload = 1708 lbs!!!

Twin turbo V6:
420HP
406 ft-lbs of torque at 1350rpm

WD hitch limit for tongue weight = 772 lbs
Max tow limit was 7716 lbs!

Wow, at this point I realized that I already own an F150 class tow vehicle with massive brakes along with fantastic torque and horsepower!

So, I went out to the Cayenne and checked the payload sticker. Ugh... 1128 lbs. The prior owner had larded the vehicle up with the panoramic sunroof that weighed over 400lbs along with some other options. The good news was that the factory towing package was installed!

At this point, I went back and looked at the 25ft and 27ft globetrotter specs again. The 27ft had lower tongue weight than the 25ft trailer and the 7600lbs trailer GVWR was under the 7716lb Cayenne tow limit. Given that we planned on a fair amount of boondocking, the extra storage in the 27ft vs the 25ft would be beneficial.

The decision was made... 27ft globetrotter front bed twin would be the trailer to order and we would figure out how to safely tow with the Cayenne. The goal is to be able to tow with the Cayenne for a couple of years until the used truck pricing returns to something more reasonable. The challenges would be meeting the Cayenne payload and tongue weight limits.

Did some research and learned that the WD limit on the Cayenne receiver sticker was set by legal/taxation concerns and not the actual load bearing capabilities of the hitch+vehicle. In Germany, if your vehicle can tow more than 3500kg (7716lbs), the tax on the vehicle skyrockets. Ergo, the Cayenne tow specs were arbitrarily set at 7716 lbs and the hitch WD limit was set at 10% of the 7716 tow limit = 772 lbs. I found a web reference that says the actual Cayenne WD tongue weight limit was 1172 lbs.

But, I want try to stay within the sticker limits of the Cayenne in terms of payload for sure and as close to the tongue weight limit as possible.

This story is getting too long, so let me jump to the punch lines and let you know where we ended up.

We ordered a globetrotter 27fb twin in Feb 2022 and took possession the last week of July 2022 (we intercepted someone else's canceled order).

Trailer tongue weight as delivered from the factory was 1060lbs (including the weight of our WD hitch).

Now, we need to manage the Cayenne limits.

We reduced the measured empty Globetrotter 27fb twin tongue weight from 1060lbs (as shipped from the factory) to 870lbs by swapping the steel propane tanks for aluminum and installing a big lithium battery bank + inverter over the rear axle (and extending slightly to the rear of the aft axle). The tongue weight will increase when we load the trailer but we will be careful on how we load the trailer to stay well under the 1172 lb limit.

We also visited the towing experts at CanAm RV Airstream dealer in Ontario Canada and had them reinforce the Cayenne hitch to provide additional support for the vertical forces placed on the hitch when WD tension is applied. We also purchased their customized Eaz-lift Elite WD hitch with a shortened stinger for optimum towing configuration. They have modified over 2000 Cayennes for towing heavy Airstreams.

After loading up the trailer for our first long trip in the trailer, we visited a CAT scale.

Net results:

Cayenne GVWR and front/rear axle GAWR are all within limits. The trailer GVWR and GAWR limits are also within spec. The tongue weight is 1090 lbs, fully loaded including WD hitch weight. With the additional CanAm RV hitch reinforcement, I am confident in and comfortable with the final tongue weight.

How does the 2016 Cayenne S + globetrotter 27fb twin perform on the road?

Over 2200 miles of towing so far in some challenging conditions (up/down 10% grades, 30 mph cross winds with gusts over 50mph, along with similar conditions with head/tail winds).

Braking performance is excellent. No problem with stopping the trailer.

Acceleration is excellent as well. Plenty of horsepower and torque.

MPG is 11mpg at 65-70mph and 12mpg at 12mpg at 78-82mph (I live in Texas and highway speeds are 75-80mph on posted speed limits).

Stability is very good. You definitely know the trailer is back there in high winds, but the rig handles everything well. Big gusts of wind and passing vehicles can tug the tow vehicle and trailer a wee bit, but very little steering input is needed to correct for the effects.

In really nasty cross winds (50mph gusts) , I am comfortable driving up to 65mph and I consider that to be acceptable. Higher speed stability is fine in normal conditions.

Eventually, we would like a tow vehicle with more payload so we can carry more gear (generators, bbq grills, etc) but I am totally comfortable towing our 27fb twin globetrotter with our Cayenne for a couple of years.

Sorry for being long winded, I hope sharing a bit regarding our decision process and ultimate results will help you as well.

At every campout so far, we have received questions along the lines of "you tow 'this', with 'that'?", or "nice Airstream, but where is your tow vehicle?", LOL...

[JetstreamAS]

Originally Posted by foobar

Lots of great advice by previous posters.

Don't neglect consideration of used tow vehicles as well. Lot's of well maintained older vehicles out there that can help preserve your bank account balances and save $ for all the 'stuff' you will need/want to buy for the Airstream.

Good write up on why you tow with your SUV. Here is the "TL;DR" bottom line though IMO:

Originally Posted by foobar

Eventually, we would like a tow vehicle with more payload so we can carry more gear (generators, bbq grills, etc)

This is the key. Towing with an SUV or any other vehicle you MUST have the available payload for tongue weight, people and all the gear you want to carry - for this trailer and maybe the next.

Do not go low on this number if possible and save yourself some real headache!

[foobar]

Sorry, typos in my last posting. Cayenne cargo limit is 1328lbs and the sunroof is 250+lbs

[foobar]

Originally Posted by JetstreamAS

Good write up on why you tow with your SUV. Here is the "TL;DR" bottom line though IMO:









This is the key. Towing with an SUV or any other vehicle you MUST have the available payload for tongue weight, people and all the gear you want to carry - for this trailer and maybe the next.



Do not go low on this number if possible and save yourself some real headache!

Agree completely. Am admittedly towing at the limits of my vehicle. Not everyone will be comfortable doing so and some tow vehicles may not behave as well as the over engineered Cayenne when pushed to the limits.

And, I am anal about weighing everything that goes into the tow vehicle and trailer. I maintain a spreadsheet to track the weight in both trailer and Cayenne and visit CAT scales to confirm gross weight,, axle weights, weight distribution in the trailer, and WD tension tuning.

Folks need to understand the limits and stay within them. And they need to be comfortable with the final behavior of the tow vehicle + trailer on the road when towing.

[Dennis C]

I think that it’s important to consider more than just towing specifications, payload, etc. Those things are the right starting point, but you should also consider how you like to camp, where you’ll camp, and what you’d like to bring along on your trips. If you are bringing things like a generator and a BBQ grill, then a pickup truck is an attractive option. The 23FB doesn’t have much outside storage space, so we found that the truck bed was invaluable on our trips. I like to fly fish when we camp and it’s nice to be able to toss wet or muddy boots and waders into the truck bed. You can certainly make accommodations for these things with an SUV, but it’s easier with a truck.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

I think that it’s important to consider more than just towing specifications, payload, etc. Those things are the right starting point, but you should also consider how you like to camp, where you’ll camp, and what you’d like to bring along on your trips. If you are bringing things like a generator and a BBQ grill, then a pickup truck is an attractive option. The 23FB doesn’t have much outside storage space, so we found that the truck bed was invaluable on our trips. I like to fly fish when we camp and it’s nice to be able to toss wet or muddy boots and waders into the truck bed. You can certainly make accommodations for these things with an SUV, but it’s easier with a truck.

Add to that, if you get a "twin" model, you gain 2 more outside storage compartments, though a bit smaller with the 23', those 2 extra storage compartments come in handy...if you've never had twins, likely wouldn't notice. The muddy boots example or bbq/firewood or propane fire pit/extra 20#propane bottle/generator/folding chairs/ folding table/extra cooler or even extra water container for boondocking, are great examples of "real use" camping for sure. Pay me now or pay me later type thinking, right?

I was impressed by the Cayenne post above, but thinking a nice 1/2T with proper payload gives you a lot more flexibility at likely less cost than the Cayenne, unless you already own one!

As for comment on SUV vs PU truck bed storage/weather/security, I have always used the tri-fold panel hard cover on my bed's. They lock with down nice, keep things weather tight, and are easy to fold back for access. Once again, easy to overthink this....once you know which AS you want, a good used SUV or PU TV would be my recommendation...that way you can always trade up later if you decide you want something else and not loose too much $$.

[Dennis C]

I have a Retrax metal rollup cover on my truck bed, and it locks. I’m very happy with it. I also added Molle racks to the sides of my truck bed to carry a few camping essentials.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

I have a Retrax metal rollup cover on my truck bed, and it locks. I’m very happy with it. I also added Molle racks to the sides of my truck bed to carry a few camping essentials.

I like those side racks. I will try and remember those when I finally get a pickup truck. Thanks for sharing that idea.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by foobar

Agree completely. Am admittedly towing at the limits of my vehicle. Not everyone will be comfortable doing so and some tow vehicles may not behave as well as the over engineered Cayenne when pushed to the limits.

And, I am anal about weighing everything that goes into the tow vehicle and trailer. I maintain a spreadsheet to track the weight in both trailer and Cayenne and visit CAT scales to confirm gross weight,, axle weights, weight distribution in the trailer, and WD tension tuning.

Folks need to understand the limits and stay within them. And they need to be comfortable with the final behavior of the tow vehicle + trailer on the road when towing.

For the OP, I forgot to mention that if my Cayenne can tow a globetrotter 27fb twin, then it would easily handle a 23ft Airstream with capacity to spare.

The lighter tongue weight of the 23ft trailer vs my 27ft trailer would free up at least 500lbs of payload in terms of Cayenne cargo capacity, which would be adequate given the the available space in the Cayenne.

And given that the Audi Q7 and VW Tuaregs are both built on the same body/chassis as the Cayennes, both of those vehicles will work well too.

And there are a lot of other midsized SUV's that can handle the 23ft Airstreams too.

I do appreciate the other folks feedback on the benefits of a pickup in terms of carrying wet/dirty/potentially stinky stuff in the bed of a truck though. While these can be handled in an SUV too with a bit of advanced preparation, they are a no brainer for a pickup truck bed.

[bobzdar]

almost any mid size (ie Grand Cherokee) or bigger real SUV or pickup with tow package could tow a 23'. The selection is pretty massive. You'll have to properly equip the smaller vehicles, but SUV's like Grand Cherokee or mid sized pickups like the Colorado can tow 7000lbs plus if properly equipped, and have plenty of payload. I think the Grand Cherokee L has 7200lbs towing and 1700lbs payload, which is more than necessary for a 23' and could tow most 25's with rear bedroom.

[xpcdoojk]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

I think that it’s important to consider more than just towing specifications, payload, etc. Those things are the right starting point, but you should also consider how you like to camp, where you’ll camp, and what you’d like to bring along on your trips. If you are bringing things like a generator and a BBQ grill, then a pickup truck is an attractive option. The 23FB doesn’t have much outside storage space, so we found that the truck bed was invaluable on our trips. I like to fly fish when we camp and it’s nice to be able to toss wet or muddy boots and waders into the truck bed. You can certainly make accommodations for these things with an SUV, but it’s easier with a truck.

Did you sell your 2020 23 International?

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by bobzdar

almost any mid size (ie Grand Cherokee) or bigger real SUV or pickup with tow package could tow a 23'. The selection is pretty massive. You'll have to properly equip the smaller vehicles, but SUV's like Grand Cherokee or mid sized pickups like the Colorado can tow 7000lbs plus if properly equipped, and have plenty of payload. I think the Grand Cherokee L has 7200lbs towing and 1700lbs payload, which is more than necessary for a 23' and could tow most 25's with rear bedroom.

I just traded in our 17 Grand Cherokee with 890 pounds of payload and purchased a new 2022 Grand Cherokee that has 1050 pounds of payload and that's on the yellow sticker. The hitch rating on my 2022 is 720 pounds with WD.

[Dennis C]

Originally Posted by xpcdoojk

Did you sell your 2020 23 International?

I traded it in for a new rig.

[bobzdar]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

I just traded in our 17 Grand Cherokee with 890 pounds of payload and purchased a new 2022 Grand Cherokee that has 1050 pounds of payload and that's on the yellow sticker. The hitch rating on my 2022 is 720 pounds with WD.

The smaller tow vehicles absolutely have to be optioned properly. You can't just buy any one off the lot and tow with it like you can with a 3/4 ton truck, but a Grand Cherokee L properly equipped can have 1720lbs of payload. It requires the V8 and a few other options and option packages can reduce that to ~1500lbs, but that is certainly plenty for a 23'.