Tow vehicle advice

[GettinAway]

Just returned from a 4,900 mile, four week trip. Half ton Tundra pulling a 25FB. No issues, no being pushed around by the trailer, no emergency flashers going up the passes. Even though it’s been said here that a half ton is no more than a passenger car, I’m seeing different results. FWIW, the 27 may pull completely different than my 25. I can’t say that I forget the AS is back there, but then again, I wouldn’t want to forget it’s back there.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by RTOS_LLC

JCL: I totally agree with your assessment of sway being caused by wind gusts and evasive maneuvers on a properly loaded trailer.

<snip>

My question to those on this site is pretty simple. Tens of thousands of these units are installed on trailers in Australia for years now, yet the US campers install a fraction of this amount. The testimonial I provided is what I constantly hear from those whom use them, yet I never here them discussed on these sites. Why is this? Is it that the "marketing" people referenced in this and other sites are doing a terrible job? Is it that no one in the US knows about them? Is it that insurance companies in Australia give a discount when units are installed on trailers and this does not occur in the US? I am just the engineer, only hear what I am told as I don't get a lot of customer contact except on sites like this. Alan, the test driver, recently created an installation video to "remove the mystery" of a 2 hour install of a unit that costs around $400 (etrailer). I REALLY would like to understand the resistance to using these types of devices when I see lots of discussions on loading and weight distribution hitches (both important) but nothing on devices that actually solve the wind gust/ evasive maneuver sway problem. Again, I REALLY would like to hear from those concerned with sway if they are afraid of the technology, never heard of the products, or whatever you can tell me. It's frightening, but this is an engineer doing my own market research!

My personal opinion is that an electronic trailer sway control device is a very good idea, and I prefer the asymmetric design simply because we know that works better on the TV, so why accept less? That is an engineer’s approach.

I had TV based trailer sway control from 2003, and was glad to have it, but I didn’t routinely see it activate, as I did with the vehicle dynamic stability control, the traction control, or the TV ABS, all indicated with a light on the dash. I tested it on a snow covered parking lot, with a large box trailer, but didn’t learn much. It was much easier to test the DSC and traction control and watch it activate.

My TSC in that vehicle did not activate the trailer brakes, and I think there is a lot of confusion over that point. I routinely read of people claiming that they don’t need a mechanical sway device “because my TV has electronic sway control” and that their TV sway control will activate their trailer brakes, when most of the time it won’t.

One of the defining characteristics of the North American towing market is a predilection for larger and heavier tow vehicles. Some claim that they don’t want or need to purchase the highest performing (and most expensive) WD hitch, one of the 3P devices, because they have a heavy truck. Some take it further and claim they don’t need WD at all, because of their heavy truck, despite the contrary recommendation from their TV manufacturer. Everyone has to make their own decision here. However selling an accessory electronic sway control device into that market would be tough. This is made even worse by some high TV manufacturer tow rating recommendations, leading some to conclude that their 9000 lb trailer is not a significant load, because of the 18,000 TV tow rating.

It isn’t the price IMO, or the ease or difficulty of the install, or lack of awareness, it is the “10 foot tall and bulletproof” mindset that can be evidenced when someone has a heavy truck and doesn’t believe they need to consider it. It gets dismissed out of hand IMO. More thought is put into whether one needs electric stability jacks, or a bigger television, or an electric awning, other things competing for the same accessory dollars.

The same thinking applies to the lack of take up of disc brakes on trailers. The case for them is pretty solid. Yet posters will go on about the braking capability of their TV, but simply accept drum brakes as being just fine despite all the evidence to the contrary.

When I read of someone who has upgraded to disc brakes, installed an electronic trailer sway control device, and a 3P hitch, regardless of their choice of tow vehicle, it gets my attention and respect.

Another thought is that the use of heavier TVs results in less feedback to the driver. The feedback is masked by the TV weight, and to some extent, the TV chassis design. Some like this (“I can’t even tell it is there”). The result of this masking is that a driver may now know they are in trouble until an extreme sway event is underway. That is exactly when they would need an electronic sway control device most, but it is too late. Extreme roll over crashes aren’t common, so there is not a continuous feedback loop to reinforce the need to think about the potential for these crashes. I equate it to driving on snow covered roads. We have lots of them here. The first, and regular action, on each drive, is to test the limits of the braking traction. And lateral grip. Safely. If one knows where those limits are one can drive more safely. If I was restricted from getting that direct feedback, I would be flying blind and acting more on faith. That works fine until it doesn’t. We have a lot of large heavy tow vehicles out there that provide less feedback, and which can thus be seen as being relatively more in need of these types of sway control devices, not because of crash frequency, but more because of crash severity when it does happen.

Jeff

[bstevenson]

This thread is useful beyond my wildest dreams. I placed an order for our 27' FBT yesterday. The tow truck order will probably be placed today. As a result of the feedback derived from this discussion it will be a Ford F250 with the 7.3 gas engine. The hitch will be a Reese, which will be equipped with their Dual Cam Sway Control. In addition, a Tuson electronic sway control system will be fitted. I learned about the Tuson system here and can't thank you all enough for all the great information imparted in this thread. There is no question that our new Airstream experience will be better and safer because of this discussion. Thank you, thank you, thank you.


Bill

[RTOS_LLC]

BayouBiker: If you experience this issue with a Tuson sway controller let me know, and the driving scenario that cause the false activation. Being the only asymmetric controller and the one on the market the longest, we have done constant product improvement and TONS of testing under numerous driving scenarios and lots of miles and don't recall any posts on whose controller goes one when unexpected and under what scenario. Any info you can provide on this would be "greatly appreciated" relative to whose sway controller and when it activates. Once the tow vehicle manufacturers "provide access" to some specific vehicle data we can even further improve the system.

[RTOS_LLC]

jcl: The new release of the Tuson sway controller actually does a longer flash of the green LED each time it activates as this has been a recent request from Australia.

Your comment on people thinking an electronic sway controller is all they need is just one of the reasons I created the following web page (https://www.realtimeobjects.net/video) as you need proper loading, and if a load leveling hitch is required then you need that as well. Relative to a 28 minute video on a test track (link provided on web page) the test driver does tests with only TV controller on, with only trailer sway controller on, with both on, with none on. His end statement is something like; he will leave the trailer sway controller on and turn off the TV controller. Remember, the TV does NOT have control of the trailer brakes except to activate them, and the tow vehicle brakes, to slow everything down the thus stop the sway.

Relative to the remaining comments I here you and agree. Those whom use the only asymmetric sway controller say they can't get the trailer to sway, as is also shown on the linked videos. With a large truck, and an asymmetric sway controller the sway is stopped immediately "assuming the electric brakes work". There is a lot of functionality with the Tuson unit, and a couple brand labeled companies, that stops the sway and it won't be too late. I am here just trying to provide the data and let the drivers decide if the want a larger TV or white knuckles, their choice. The testimonial video says it better than I ever could.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by RTOS_LLC

BayouBiker: If you experience this issue with a Tuson sway controller let me know, and the driving scenario that cause the false activation. Being the only asymmetric controller and the one on the market the longest, we have done constant product improvement and TONS of testing under numerous driving scenarios and lots of miles and don't recall any posts on whose controller goes one when unexpected and under what scenario. Any info you can provide on this would be "greatly appreciated" relative to whose sway controller and when it activates. Once the tow vehicle manufacturers "provide access" to some specific vehicle data we can even further improve the system.

I don't have one just now but I may well get one to tinker with. The information I have is second hand and a couple years old. The issues reported seem to be most prevent on winding hilly country roads at 35-50 mph, with lots of on and off the accelerator and lots of pitch changes. Maybe this as been addressed and you can comment on it.

[RTOS_LLC]

BayouBiker: I guess it would depend on the sway controller being used. I can see where a quick left and quick right, or the opposite could cause an activation on some units but the changes needed are very unlikely on a road where you could gong 35 mph. I know one specific test we run that is similar to what you indicate and where unit won't active. The system I am familiar would only active if you were doing rapid changes, like going through some pylons. In effect fast changes in steering right and left is how some of the "basic" sway activation tests are performed. This is the reason why knowing vehicle steering angle from the vehicle network would REALLY help. With this information the trailer change in angle could be compared to the vehicle steering angle and even very fast maneuvers wouldn't activate sway unless of course the differences in angle were exceeded along with some other criteria. That is why "systems integrated with tow vehicles" is the best approach, thus trailer data can go to vehicle and vice versa. Problem is vehicle manufacturers have "deep pockets" and they need to be very careful. I used to work for American Motors (bought by Chrysler) and I could tell you stories about how some law suits were settled where vehicle owners improperly modified performance vehicles, caused a problem due to how they did things, where manufacturer was not at fault but the negative publicity would be really bad and thus they would settle! Pathetic, but this is the USA. So I understand why manufacturers are hesitant.