Tongue weight of GT27 2021

[Wazbro]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

I'd also ask how the trailer was loaded. The factory spec is on an empty trailer.

Bob

The OPs post implied the dealer weighed his new trailer that he hasn't picked up yet so should be empty as delivered from factory, need him to confirm.

A major concern should be max tongue weight of truck, most 150/1500 trucks have a max tongue weight with WD of 1200lbs or less. The last I checked anyway.

[RobdaSlob]

This is why I moved up to a 3/4 ton truck.

Has anyone seen wear issues on the trailer as a result of higher than advertised tongue weights? I am not sure what they would be but one would assume if a trailer was designed for 40 to 50 percent lower tongue weight that issues could pop up due to higher loads.

[kajmonty]

Originally Posted by Dick tracy

Actually a good WD hitch will move about 20% of the tongue weight to the front axle of the TV AND 20% to the trailer, leaving 60% on the TV rear axle. No magic required. GT weigh more than either FC or internationals. And as stated before, a full fresh water tank will leverage more weight off the TV.
Weight your rig, dry, loaded, then loaded with full fresh water. Your TV rear axle rating is usually your limiting factor. Weigh it three times each for more accurate readings

It's relocation, not changing the tongue weight, only where that weight is being carried.

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by kajmonty

It's relocation, not changing the tongue weight, only where that weight is being carried.

That's why they are called weight DISTRIBUTION hitches. The point is to equalize the weight between the trailer and the TV front and rear axle SO all the weight isn't sitting on the TV rear axle.

[AShar]

We have a 25FB, and we are on our 3rd TV within three years. In the process, I have gained some experience and learnings that I can share. Hopefully, it will help.
We went from towing with an SUV to a 3/4 Ton truck and back to SUV. In the process, I realized that my tongue weight went way up when I had a 3/4 ton versus when I was towing with SUVs. It's funny how that works; basically, I didn't care much about how we were loading the trailer when we had a 3/4 ton because I knew it could handle it. Now that I am back to the SUV, I have made several adjustments like batteries, a single propane tank, storing minimal stuff in the front compartment and under the bed, making sure that grey and black tanks are entirely empty. Also, I carry the generator, Zamp portable solar panel, and a heavy tool bag in the trailer while traveling; I make sure to load these items right on top of the axle.
Lastly, and most importantly, the WD hitch will move/distribute a big chunk of tongue weight back to the trailer axle, as stated by Dick Tracy, which helps a lot. I make it a point to hit the CAT scales before every trip, I happen to have one close to where we live, so it's convenient.
By making all these adjustments, our trailer's TW now is lower than AirStream's published TW and is within the specified TW for our SUV. However, doing all this is a lot more work for every trip than when we had a 3/4 ton truck. It's a tradeoff, just like most things in life. You just need to be aware of this before going into it.
The F150 Hybrid is a very nice truck for camping, especially because of the RV power capabilities, but due to limited payload, you will need to be ready to make many adjustments like I mentioned above. If you decide to go 3/4 ton, make sure to pay attention to the payload sticker more than anything else. We bought a 3/4 ton gasser because of this reason and could get ~2800lbs of payload; a similar spec'd Diesel would have 800 lbs lesser payload due to the heavier motor.
Good luck!

[Profxd]

Originally Posted by AShar

We have a 25FB, and we are on our 3rd TV within three years. In the process, I have gained some experience and learnings that I can share. Hopefully, it will help.
We went from towing with an SUV to a 3/4 Ton truck and back to SUV. In the process, I realized that my tongue weight went way up when I had a 3/4 ton versus when I was towing with SUVs. It's funny how that works; basically, I didn't care much about how we were loading the trailer when we had a 3/4 ton because I knew it could handle it. Now that I am back to the SUV, I have made several adjustments like batteries, a single propane tank, storing minimal stuff in the front compartment and under the bed, making sure that grey and black tanks are entirely empty. Also, I carry the generator, Zamp portable solar panel, and a heavy tool bag in the trailer while traveling; I make sure to load these items right on top of the axle.
Lastly, and most importantly, the WD hitch will move/distribute a big chunk of tongue weight back to the trailer axle, as stated by Dick Tracy, which helps a lot. I make it a point to hit the CAT scales before every trip, I happen to have one close to where we live, so it's convenient.
By making all these adjustments, our trailer's TW now is lower than AirStream's published TW and is within the specified TW for our SUV. However, doing all this is a lot more work for every trip than when we had a 3/4 ton truck. It's a tradeoff, just like most things in life. You just need to be aware of this before going into it.
The F150 Hybrid is a very nice truck for camping, especially because of the RV power capabilities, but due to limited payload, you will need to be ready to make many adjustments like I mentioned above. If you decide to go 3/4 ton, make sure to pay attention to the payload sticker more than anything else. We bought a 3/4 ton gasser because of this reason and could get ~2800lbs of payload; a similar spec'd Diesel would have 800 lbs lesser payload due to the heavier motor.
Good luck!

People need to understand that a WD doesn’t physically move anything. Weight and mass are not the same thing. Weight is a force and a WD hitch will reduce the downforce at the TV rear axle and transfer some force to the front axle of the TV and to the trailer axles. The mass of the tongue doesn’t move or change position with use of a WD hitch. That mass will continue to act on the TV regardless of WD tension. This is why full TW (actually tongue mass) is always considered to be payload to the TV. To truly understand the impact of TW(mass) on the TV you have to consider the effects of a mass at a velocity(speed). This why instability is directly related to speed. Many get confused and don’t understand the weight/mass relationship and how it applies to towing.

[Vitaver]

Originally Posted by Wazbro

The OPs post implied the dealer weighed his new trailer that he hasn't picked up yet so should be empty as delivered from factory, need him to confirm.

A major concern should be max tongue weight of truck, most 150/1500 trucks have a max tongue weight with WD of 1200lbs or less. The last I checked anyway.

It had all 3 tanks full, otherwise empty as delivered.

Pro Pride tells me 10% of tongue weight is sent to TT axel, I suspect is more than that. Yes, a lot of weight was shifted to the forward axel of TV, as I had to crank up the the hitch and add 2 washers, since the driving wheels upfront need weight to get traction and tell the whole rig the direction to go.

Ordered a 250 2022, there appeared to be no way to get safely to the TV specs, even with Tinbrens or leaf springs, too risky past payload close to max axel capacity.

[BT2513]

I always equate it to people locking arms...

If two people stand facing each other and hold hands, they form a "bridge". If a third person were to step on that bridge, the weight of the person could likely overcome the strength of either person's grip and fall through.

If the two people instead reach a little further and hold the other person's forearm near the elbow, the weight of the person standing on the bridge is distributed across the entire forearm. The weight of the person doesn't change and the same amount of upward force is required from the two-person bridge; the weight is simply spread over a wider area. Both people should be able to maintain their grip to keep the bridge intact.

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by s1000pre

The WD hitch distributes some of the weight off of the the hitch and re-distributes it to the front wheels.

A recent video posted argues that a WD hitch does not remove weight from the hitch and move it to the front axle, it removes weight from the rear axle and moves it to the front axle. The weight on the hitch remains constant. (or so he claims)
I'll see if I can find it. Unfortunately, the guy was so offensive it was painful to watch, but I couldn't disagree.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCgRiVNaXFc

[pteck]

Originally Posted by ETroup

On our 2021 International 27FB the higher than spec hitch weight means that more cargo can be / should be loaded aft of the axles.

Many people talk about the dangers of loading things on the bumper for fear of creating an unstable trailer. However, if the hitch is in fact too heavy, bike carriers or even rear bumper platform to mount a generator could help reduce hitch weight back to specification.

We load lighter weight items up front and make a conscious effort to load heavy items aft of the axles. The fresh water tank is aft of the front axle. Water in that tank also helps reduce hitch weight.

We found a load plan after some experimentation that kept the hitch weight less than 1,000 lbs.

If I'm not misinterpreting you, you're suggesting to load weight at the rear of the trailer to counter tongue weight.

I'd implore to you revisit this strategy. As that is in fact the worse thing that can be done. Excess tongue weight is actually helpful for stability (though an impact to TVs structure if it cannot handle it). Too little tongue weight and excess weight at the rear of the trailer is a recipe for sway and loss of control.

I'd agree to generally load lighter things to the forward part of the trailer.
Heavy things should be loaded generally over the trailer axles. Avoid heavy weights at the far rear of the trailer, and definitely don't use that strategy to counter tongue weights.

[Vitaver]

I think his video speaks a thousand words…

https://youtu.be/w9Dgxe584Ss

By all means, worth seeing by all, is short, to the point and conclusive.

[AShar]

Originally Posted by Vitaver

I think his video speaks a thousand words…

https://youtu.be/w9Dgxe584Ss

By all means, worth seeing by all, is short, to the point and conclusive.

That's a great demonstration of the effect of tongue weight on towing stability. Thanks for sharing. I think the key takeaway from this video is to have at least a "safe" tongue weight, 10-15%. We should always keep that in mind.

In my experience, our 25FB loaded with all our stuff, including generator, solar panels, etc., weighs around 6800lbs on CAT scales; with all our adjustments, we achieve a tongue weight of ~760lbs, which is 11.1%. Also, none of the adjustments involve moving the stuff to the back; we carry it right on top of the axle. It seems to tow pretty well so far. I can't compare it to the stability I was experiencing with a 3/4 ton, but as I said, it's a tradeoff.

Hope, all these posts are helping you make an informed decision.

[ETroup]

Originally Posted by pteck

If I'm not misinterpreting you, you're suggesting to load weight at the rear of the trailer to counter tongue weight.



I'd implore to you revisit this strategy. As that is in fact the worse thing that can be done. Excess tongue weight is actually helpful for stability (though an impact to TVs structure if it cannot handle it). Too little tongue weight and excess weight at the rear of the trailer is a recipe for sway and loss of control.



I'd agree to generally load lighter things to the forward part of the trailer.

Heavy things should be loaded generally over the trailer axles. Avoid heavy weights at the far rear of the trailer, and definitely don't use that strategy to counter tongue weights.

Let’s keep this in the context of the problem. You are mis-representing what I said.

The problem raised was EXCESSIVE tongue weight. A load plan to achieve the recommended tongue weight can include moving weight aft.

There is no absolute ban against moving weight aft. The videos cited about amplifying un-dampening sway move ALL the weight aft. No do not do that either - not what I am talking about.

You do move weight aft to achieve balance (with the desired tongue weight) when there is already too much weight forward.

[jondrew55]

Unfortunately being offensive does not make him wrong (I’m actually surprised YouTube has not yanked that video). A WD hitch does not change the tongue mass (which we sometimes use interchangeably with weight). The torque of the WD springs move the downward force to the front axels. I’m almost afraid to measure the tongue weight of my 25’ GT FB. I do have a Shereline scale, but I’m not going to do it till after my trip. I’m going with “Ignorance is bliss” with my pro pride hitch and RAM 2500 for now. It towed great and we had lots of wind and trucks trying to push me around and barely noticed it. It does porpoise a bit, so I’m going to adjust the spring bars a bit to see how that works.

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

A recent video posted argues that a WD hitch does not remove weight from the hitch and move it to the front axle, it removes weight from the rear axle and moves it to the front axle. The weight on the hitch remains constant. (or so he claims)
I'll see if I can find it. Unfortunately, the guy was so offensive it was painful to watch, but I couldn't disagree.

[switz]

Our new unladen on the dealer lot 2013 25FB International Serenity had a literature tongue weight of 833 pounds. After a Hensley Arrow hitch and Tekonsha RF brake controller were added to the "A" frame along with a 155 watt solar panel on the roof and street side and rear awnings and full fresh water and propane tanks, the tongue weight was now 1,150 pounds. I put all the tools and heavy stuff under the rear dinette eats and kept the tongue weight to 1,175 pounds as the Hensley Arrow was rated for 1,200 pounds. We quickly learned that my 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI turbo diesel was not the proper tow vehicle so we acquired a 2012 Ram 2500HD Cummins which is now towing the 31' Classic.

After installing four Lifeline GSM 300m amp hour 6Vdc batteries with a stainless steel enclosure on the "A" frame of our 2014 31' Classic along with the Magnum inverter/charger under the front sofa, the tongue weight was 1,375 pounds. The Pro Pride was rated 1,400 pounds. We removed the GSM batteries and their enclosure and put a 600 amp hour lithium battery under the sofa. The Tongue weight dropped back 1,175 pounds. The rig scales 19,200 pounds camping ready and we can take whatever we want. The rear hitch was upgraded to 2,550 pound tongue weight and 21,000 pound trailer which is more than any Airstream.

Our 2015 23D International Serenity has a hydrauliuc disc brake pump in the front battery box plus a 2800 watt inverter charger with other solar panel equipment all located under the front street side dinette seat. Our tongue weight is about 920 pounds now. We fitted new 3,600 pound Dexter axles with 3" lift and dual puck 12" disc brakes which increased the GVW to about 6,200 pounds. We are still using 15" Michelin tires so are within the legal load numbers of the trailer (tires exceed axle ratings which are stronger than the original 3,000 pound axles. The hitch is a new PPP which replaced the used Hensley Arrow from the 2013 25FB. We would have the ability to move the tools to the rear of the storage area under the bed if it were necessary to lighten the tongue weight. However, our new 2021 Toyota Land Cruiser is capable of the towing loads with all axle ratings and GVW of the car within the legal limits.

[nitzo]

A fix for payload issues:

[thewarden]

Originally Posted by jondrew55

Unfortunately being offensive does not make him wrong (I’m actually surprised YouTube has not yanked that video). A WD hitch does not change the tongue mass (which we sometimes use interchangeably with weight). The torque of the WD springs move the downward force to the front axels. I’m almost afraid to measure the tongue weight of my 25’ GT FB. I do have a Shereline scale, but I’m not going to do it till after my trip. I’m going with “Ignorance is bliss” with my pro pride hitch and RAM 2500 for now. It towed great and we had lots of wind and trucks trying to push me around and barely noticed it. It does porpoise a bit, so I’m going to adjust the spring bars a bit to see how that works.

He has many, many YouTube videos on a variety of vehicle related issues. Personally, I get a chuckle out of most of them. Being an engineer, he is uniquely qualified.

[jondrew55]

I’m an engineer too. Take my advice at your own peril

Originally Posted by thewarden

He has many, many YouTube videos on a variety of vehicle related issues. Personally, I get a chuckle out of most of them. Being an engineer, he is uniquely qualified.

[thewarden]

Originally Posted by nitzo

A fix for payload issues:

Attachment 400945


Attachment 400944

Very comforting to never have to ask yourself, can I take this, can I take that, and what is my hitch weight? Yes, Yes, and I don't care.

[Dick tracy]

Originally Posted by jondrew55

Unfortunately being offensive does not make him wrong (I’m actually surprised YouTube has not yanked that video). A WD hitch does not change the tongue mass (which we sometimes use interchangeably with weight). The torque of the WD springs move the downward force to the front axels. I’m almost afraid to measure the tongue weight of my 25’ GT FB. I do have a Shereline scale, but I’m not going to do it till after my trip. I’m going with “Ignorance is bliss” with my pro pride hitch and RAM 2500 for now. It towed great and we had lots of wind and trucks trying to push me around and barely noticed it. It does porpoise a bit, so I’m going to adjust the spring bars a bit to see how that works.

Nevertheless, what I heard him say, is exactly what others have said. A WD hitch doesn't "eliminate" weight, it moves it around by applying torque. AND he didn't say that it was dangerous to drive with a rig that is WITHIN weight limits - gross vehicle weight, axle limits, hitch limits. The GT 25 is within almost all 1/2 ton truck limits for gross truck and gross rig weight and axle limits on the TV and TT. AND with 10% tongue weight on your rear truck axle you will tow just fine. These trucks are engineered to pull and stop with a gross rig weight of 17000 lbs or more, the real limiting factor on the 1/2 ton is the axle limits, most are several hundred to 1000 lbs less than a 3/4 ton truck.
So, when you load up and weigh the rig on a scale and it shows you are under limits at all axles, remember FACTs inform feelings.
But I'm just a simple cabinet maker, not an engineer.