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Old 08-03-2021, 02:45 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick tracy View Post
Nevertheless, what I heard him say, is exactly what others have said. A WD hitch doesn't "eliminate" weight, it moves it around by applying torque. AND he didn't say that it was dangerous to drive with a rig that is WITHIN weight limits - gross vehicle weight, axle limits, hitch limits. The GT 25 is within almost all 1/2 ton truck limits for gross truck and gross rig weight and axle limits on the TV and TT. AND with 10% tongue weight on your rear truck axle you will tow just fine. These trucks are engineered to pull and stop with a gross rig weight of 17000 lbs or more, the real limiting factor on the 1/2 ton is the axle limits, most are several hundred to 1000 lbs less than a 3/4 ton truck.
So, when you load up and weigh the rig on a scale and it shows you are under limits at all axles, remember FACTs inform feelings.
But I'm just a simple cabinet maker, not an engineer.
May I ask, what is the cargo capacity of your F150 Harley Davidson?
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Old 08-03-2021, 04:32 PM   #42
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I’m not sure if we are in violent agreement about all the things he didn’t say, but I didn't say anything about what is and what is not safe to drive. I’d be curious where you got your informed fact about 1/2 ton trucks being designed to tow 17000 pounds or more. The way you phrased it, one could take that statement to mean all 1/2 ton trucks have GCWR’s of over 17k (I’m also inferring that by “gross truck and gross rig weight” you meant Gross Combined Weight Rating”). The link below shows towing capacities for RAM 1500 trucks, and while there are a couple in there with GCWRs over 17000 pounds, it is not the norm. Maybe Ford’s and Chevys are different

https://www.ramtrucks.com/BodyBuilde...ONjPJTiLoD5%0A



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick tracy View Post
Nevertheless, what I heard him say, is exactly what others have said. A WD hitch doesn't "eliminate" weight, it moves it around by applying torque. AND he didn't say that it was dangerous to drive with a rig that is WITHIN weight limits - gross vehicle weight, axle limits, hitch limits. The GT 25 is within almost all 1/2 ton truck limits for gross truck and gross rig weight and axle limits on the TV and TT. AND with 10% tongue weight on your rear truck axle you will tow just fine. These trucks are engineered to pull and stop with a gross rig weight of 17000 lbs or more, the real limiting factor on the 1/2 ton is the axle limits, most are several hundred to 1000 lbs less than a 3/4 ton truck.
So, when you load up and weigh the rig on a scale and it shows you are under limits at all axles, remember FACTs inform feelings.
But I'm just a simple cabinet maker, not an engineer.
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Old 08-03-2021, 04:33 PM   #43
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May I ask, what is the cargo capacity of your F150 Harley Davidson?
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Old 08-03-2021, 11:51 PM   #44
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1/2 Ton limits

Most 1/2 ton trucks have combined axle limits of around 7000lbs and tow capacity limits of 10000lbs or more for a combined weight of 17,000lbs or more. They are engineered to pull and stop and maneuver this weight safely. No one suggests they will do it as effortlessly as a 1 ton, but let's agree they are engineered to do this - suspension, brakes, axles, engines, transmissions, and frames.
With this said, most 1/2 tons are limited by their axle weight ratings and thus their payload.When you stay within your axle limits, everything performs as designed. 3/4 & 1tons have axle limits of several hundred pounds more per axle and of course, frames, brakes, suspensions, and transmissions designed to handle more weight.
I am under my axle limits when fully loaded for multi-week trips.
I've weighed my truck empty, my trailer empty, with WD hitch and without, loaded with and without WD hitch, with and without 40gal of fresh water. FACTS inform feelings.
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Old 08-04-2021, 12:07 AM   #45
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Sorry

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Originally Posted by jondrew55 View Post
The link below shows towing capacities for RAM 1500 trucks, and while there are a couple in there with GCWRs over 17000 pounds, it is not the norm. Maybe Ford’s and Chevys are different

https://www.ramtrucks.com/BodyBuilde...ONjPJTiLoD5%0A
I'm mostly familiar with Ford and Chevy limits, just assumed RAM tough was tough, looks like most 1/2 Rams are actually only Sheep tough
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Old 08-04-2021, 04:21 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Dick tracy View Post
I'm mostly familiar with Ford and Chevy limits, just assumed RAM tough was tough, looks like most 1/2 Rams are actually only Sheep tough
I’ll leave it at this since apparently you’re not as familiar with Fords as you think. MOST F-150s do not have GCWRs of 17000 pounds. There’s a wide variety of power trains, axel ratios and suspension packages for all these trucks. To make a blanket statement that all, or even most are designed for 17000 pounds is flat wrong. Someone else can spend the 2 minutes required to see what Chevy 1500s are rated for.
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Old 08-04-2021, 08:11 PM   #47
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MOST F-150s do not have GCWRs of 17000 pounds. There’s a wide variety of power trains, axel ratios and suspension packages for all these trucks. To make a blanket statement that all, or even most are designed for 17000 pounds is flat wrong.
To know whether most Ford F-150s have GCWR of 17000# one would have to know the number of trucks sold in each of the drive trains, axle ratios, etc., shown in the chart. Maybe very few trucks in the 9200# range are sold. I bought my 2020 off the lot and it exceeds 17000#. Maybe all the wuss trucks were sold, and they can’t keep them in stock. Maybe they don’t even stock the wuss trucks because they are low margin or no one wants them. I’m not saying you’re wrong; I’m saying that we don’t have enough data.
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Old 08-04-2021, 10:04 PM   #48
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In reference to comment by AShar: "We bought a 3/4 ton gasser because of this reason and could get ~2800lbs of payload; a similar spec'd Diesel would have 800 lbs lesser payload due to the heavier motor."

I am not sure about then vs now but I don't think this is currently true for 2021/22 models. I was perplexed by this statement as I have been shopping 2021/22 F250's for myself and have noticed similar equipped gas and Diesel are both up in the 2800lb payload range for a max tow Lariat. After doing some homework I see ford has increased their GVWR on the Diesel by 800 lbs, I guess to accommodate the weight of the engine? GVWR on a max tow gas (6.2L or 7.3L) 4x4 crew is spec'd at 10,000lbs. GVWR for same configuration 6.7 Diesel is spec'd at 10,800lbs. Based on this I can see how they would both have the same payload these days. I am going to go look at some GVWR stickers tomorrow to verify this.
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Old 08-04-2021, 10:18 PM   #49
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From my GMC owners manual regarding Rear Axle Weight Rating

"If using a
weight-distributing hitch, make sure
not to exceed the RGAWR before
applying the weight distribution
spring bars."

We were looking at going to an F150 if we get a larger trailer but the payload ratings are awfully low for every combination we looked at, in many cases even less than our mid size Canyon. Very surprising, but with the typical AS tongue weights they barely leave you enough for passengers. Even our neighbor's "huge" F250 Powerstroke is only 2,000 lbs payload. F350 anyone?
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Old 08-04-2021, 10:19 PM   #50
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I suppose I could have been more specific. By “most” I meant in terms of available models not how many of each flavor are sold. For my part and from an engineering perspective, I’ve bought a pretty red truck that is more than a match for the trailer I now own. It drives nice and makes a manly diesel rumble.

But this thread has devolved into a “how many angels can fit on the head of a pin” and really does not address the OP’s question, so I’m done with this one.

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To know whether most Ford F-150s have GCWR of 17000# one would have to know the number of trucks sold in each of the drive trains, axle ratios, etc., shown in the chart. Maybe very few trucks in the 9200# range are sold. I bought my 2020 off the lot and it exceeds 17000#. Maybe all the wuss trucks were sold, and they can’t keep them in stock. Maybe they don’t even stock the wuss trucks because they are low margin or no one wants them. I’m not saying you’re wrong; I’m saying that we don’t have enough data.
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Old 08-05-2021, 06:22 AM   #51
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Intended to mention in my post above (and for some reason we are very limited in how much time we have to edit on this forum) but relevant to OP observation on tongue weight, our 20FC is also much higher tongue weight than the AS chart shows, over 700 lbs with tanks full, and nothing in storage under the front bed. And yes, we probably could have stopped at post #3 or so to adequately respond to OP... LOL.
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Old 08-05-2021, 07:04 AM   #52
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I saw a post or YouTube talking about this. That Ford now was excluding passenger weight from their max rating effectively giving you another 800# of payload. I can’t find the reference just remember the person talking about it says it seemed too good to be true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush View Post
In reference to comment by AShar: "We bought a 3/4 ton gasser because of this reason and could get ~2800lbs of payload; a similar spec'd Diesel would have 800 lbs lesser payload due to the heavier motor."

I am not sure about then vs now but I don't think this is currently true for 2021/22 models. I was perplexed by this statement as I have been shopping 2021/22 F250's for myself and have noticed similar equipped gas and Diesel are both up in the 2800lb payload range for a max tow Lariat. After doing some homework I see ford has increased their GVWR on the Diesel by 800 lbs, I guess to accommodate the weight of the engine? GVWR on a max tow gas (6.2L or 7.3L) 4x4 crew is spec'd at 10,000lbs. GVWR for same configuration 6.7 Diesel is spec'd at 10,800lbs. Based on this I can see how they would both have the same payload these days. I am going to go look at some GVWR stickers tomorrow to verify this.
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Old 08-05-2021, 08:16 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Dick tracy View Post
The GT 25 is within almost all 1/2 ton truck limits for gross truck and gross rig weight and axle limits on the TV and TT.
I think this statement is a bit misleading. Most of the 1/2 ton trucks I see have a payload capacity in the neighborhood of 13-1400 lbs. Trucks with higher trim packages are even less. My neighbors F150 Platinum, for example, has a cargo capacity of just over 1200 lbs based on the door jam sticker.

Given that the GT25s real-world TW (not brochure) is closer to 1000 lbs, that leaves very little for passengers and extra cargo. At best, you are at, or very close to your cargo capacity.

For short trips, on flat roads that may be just fine. But if you are traveling many miles, in hilly or mountainous terrain, I would not be comfortable that my TV was at the max all the time. Just because some truck manufacturers hype says that it can leap tall buildings in a single bound, does not mean you should.

Take that maxed-out 1/2 ton rig down a long 7% grade with a sweeping 50 mph curve at the bottom in 90-degree heat and see how comfortable that is. These are the scenarios where the built-in cargo capacity cushion of a 3/4 or 1-ton truck pays dividends. Not to mention the engine braking of a diesel.
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Old 08-05-2021, 09:56 AM   #54
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I got the 2021 F150 Platinum with maximum tow package etc and loved the idea of a built in generator, 7 lithium batteries, etc. but with a 27 GT on tow and a 200# 7000is Honda plus paddle boards, bed slider, gas for the genny, etc exceeded the payload by quite a bit and was close to their strongest axel limit. I tow for fun, not work, driving near the limits, white knuckle moments, feeling the ‘vote’ of the trailer along the way, as it has a ‘say’ on what I am doing, especially on downhill turns, at night, with some snow, over a patch of sand, etc. is not fun… gave up the 150 and have now a F250 on order which now comes with the assisted backup pro package that was exclusive to the 150. Also the 150 provides 30 AMPS for the TT while the 7000is gives you 50. I had an accident once while towing and I know now they happen, they are real to me. Better to overdo it than thousands of miles on the edge.
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Old 08-05-2021, 10:05 AM   #55
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I got the 2021 F150 Platinum with maximum tow package etc and loved the idea of a built in generator, 7 lithium batteries, etc. but with a 27 GT on tow and a 200# 7000is Honda plus paddle boards, bed slider, gas for the genny, etc exceeded the payload by quite a bit and was close to their strongest axel limit. I tow for fun, not work, driving near the limits, white knuckle moments, feeling the ‘vote’ of the trailer along the way, as it has a ‘say’ on what I am doing, especially on downhill turns, at night, with some snow, over a patch of sand, etc. is not fun… gave up the 150 and have now a F250 on order which now comes with the assisted backup pro package that was exclusive to the 150. Also the 150 provides 30 AMPS for the TT while the 7000is gives you 50. I had an accident once while towing and I know now they happen, they are real to me. Better to overdo it than thousands of miles on the edge.
Exact experience here Vitaver. F-250 build week is next week, I hope.
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Old 08-05-2021, 11:35 AM   #56
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I agree with you Vitaver (although not sure why you'd carry a Honda generator with a truck that has a built in generator). In any case, I think you're correct about the capacity limits. Hoping that Ford comes out with an F250 hybrid with the built-in generator.
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Old 08-05-2021, 11:37 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by OrangeCrush View Post
In reference to comment by AShar: "We bought a 3/4 ton gasser because of this reason and could get ~2800lbs of payload; a similar spec'd Diesel would have 800 lbs lesser payload due to the heavier motor."

I am not sure about then vs now but I don't think this is currently true for 2021/22 models. I was perplexed by this statement as I have been shopping 2021/22 F250's for myself and have noticed similar equipped gas and Diesel are both up in the 2800lb payload range for a max tow Lariat. After doing some homework I see ford has increased their GVWR on the Diesel by 800 lbs, I guess to accommodate the weight of the engine? GVWR on a max tow gas (6.2L or 7.3L) 4x4 crew is spec'd at 10,000lbs. GVWR for same configuration 6.7 Diesel is spec'd at 10,800lbs. Based on this I can see how they would both have the same payload these days. I am going to go look at some GVWR stickers tomorrow to verify this.
Hi

A diesel drive train is an option on this or that truck. As soon as you start adding options, the internet data on payload gets weird. There is never a guarantee this or that option actually has been taken out of the total. What *should* be true is that the base model with no added options will have the stated payload. Even that isn't a 100% sort of thing.

Any time you do this, look at the door sticker. It is very explicit about what is or is not included in the "payload" number. Numbers in this or that manual or on this or that internet site might have different inclusions. Yes, this is pretty crazy.

Bob
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Old 08-05-2021, 11:41 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYC2Vette View Post
From my GMC owners manual regarding Rear Axle Weight Rating



"If using a

weight-distributing hitch, make sure

not to exceed the RGAWR before

applying the weight distribution

spring bars."



We were looking at going to an F150 if we get a larger trailer but the payload ratings are awfully low for every combination we looked at, in many cases even less than our mid size Canyon. Very surprising, but with the typical AS tongue weights they barely leave you enough for passengers. Even our neighbor's "huge" F250 Powerstroke is only 2,000 lbs payload. F350 anyone?


Love my F350!
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Old 08-05-2021, 01:21 PM   #59
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Why carry the genset?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlintiaga View Post
I agree with you Vitaver (although not sure why you'd carry a Honda generator with a truck that has a built in generator). In any case, I think you're correct about the capacity limits. Hoping that Ford comes out with an F250 hybrid with the built-in generator.
Well, the F150 gives you 30 AMPS, the Honda 7000is does 50 AMPS. Yes, I hope for the same… with full 50 AMPS and 220 like this Honda. Need to power 2 ACs. BTW got the Easy Start for both, need to install them still.
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Old 08-05-2021, 04:00 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeCrush View Post
In reference to comment by AShar: "We bought a 3/4 ton gasser because of this reason and could get ~2800lbs of payload; a similar spec'd Diesel would have 800 lbs lesser payload due to the heavier motor."

I am not sure about then vs now but I don't think this is currently true for 2021/22 models. I was perplexed by this statement as I have been shopping 2021/22 F250's for myself and have noticed similar equipped gas and Diesel are both up in the 2800lb payload range for a max tow Lariat. After doing some homework I see ford has increased their GVWR on the Diesel by 800 lbs, I guess to accommodate the weight of the engine? GVWR on a max tow gas (6.2L or 7.3L) 4x4 crew is spec'd at 10,000lbs. GVWR for same configuration 6.7 Diesel is spec'd at 10,800lbs. Based on this I can see how they would both have the same payload these days. I am going to go look at some GVWR stickers tomorrow to verify this.
Indeed. My 2021 F250 Platinum diesel has 2671 lb payload and 10,800 GVWR. The 10,800 package is no charge option. I also have high cap trailer tow package, 3.55 rear end. 6340 lb GAWR.

The wife and I fight over who gets to drive it.
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