Tongue Weight

[TomKriek]

Does the weight of a WD hitch add to the tongue weight? Weigh Safe says no, but it seems to me it would be no different than adding 100 lbs to the front of the trailer. What are your thoughts and should I take into consideration the weight of a WD/Antisway hitch?

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by TomKriek

Does the weight of a WD hitch add to the tongue weight? Weigh Safe says no, but it seems to me it would be no different than adding 100 lbs to the front of the trailer. What are your thoughts and should I take into consideration the weight of a WD/Antisway hitch?

Tongue weight is defined as the weight the trailer coupler places on the ball, so it does not include the hitch components. Hitch weight or receiver weight includes the tongue weight plus the hitch components weight. The actual weight placed on the receiver isn't actually a simple addition, but is relatively close.

[Wazbro]

That depends on what you are taking it into consideration for.
For how much payload you're taking up? Yes.
For TV tongue weight capacity? Well, TV manufacturers say towing limits are with required equipment which "should" mean no.
For trailer balance? Absolutely not, that is determined before you hook up to hitch/TV.

[richard5933]

There are two things often talked about using the term "tongue weight". The first is the weight of the trailer as applied to the coupler, and this can be measured by placing the tongue on a tongue scale when the trailer is detached from the tow vehicle. The tongue weight of the trailer itself includes any portion of the WD hitch which is permanently installed on the trailer such as the brackets and mounting hardware.

The second thing that is often being discussed using the term "tongue weight" is how much weight is applied to the rear of the tow vehicle when the trailer is being tugged down the highway. This includes everything, including the WD hitch itself. Usually this will all come off the cargo carrying capacity of the tow vehicle.

As for whether or not the WD hitch itself is included when trying to calculate the tongue weight as it applies to tow vehicle limitations, that would depend on how your tow vehicle manufacturer does the calculations. On my Suburban, the manual's 1,000-lb tongue weight limit for WD hitch use states that it assumes the hitch & necessary hardware is already in place, so in this case they are talking about how much weight the trailer itself brings to the equation.

[s1000pre]

I’m going to say yes. Your hitch weight includes the hitch. I have a Hensley Arrow, 150+ lbs. I bolt it to the front of the trailer which i then connect to the TV. When I weigh my hitch, I weight it with the Hensley and stinger installed on the front of the trailer. That is my true max hitch weight.

[GeocamperAS]

When I set my camper on the ball without the WD and then lower the jack, the hitch goes down quite a bit and the front of the truck goes up. With the WD, properly set, the hitch does not go down as far and the front of the truck does not go up as far. So one would think that it is less downward weight on the hitch.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by GeocamperAS

When I set my camper on the ball without the WD and then lower the jack, the hitch goes down quite a bit and the front of the truck goes up. With the WD, properly set, the hitch does not go down as far and the front of the truck does not go up as far. So one would think that it is less downward weight on the hitch.

A good start but without numbers just guessing.

I've found that knowing your loaded for camping weights, helps the guessing.
I can then adjust using the 'seat of pants' while driving method.

Bob
🇺🇸

[ETroup]

Originally Posted by GeocamperAS

When I set my camper on the ball without the WD and then lower the jack, the hitch goes down quite a bit and the front of the truck goes up. With the WD, properly set, the hitch does not go down as far and the front of the truck does not go up as far. So one would think that it is less downward weight on the hitch.

In physics we say that for every force there is an equal an opposite force.

When WD bars are cranked up or put under load, an equal an opposite force pushes up at their attachment point at the hitch hub. This in turns creates a force that pushes down on the tow vehicle’s front wheels and down on the trailer’s wheels. How much force is created is a function of the strength of the WD Bars force and the distances between the WD hitch hub and the front or trailer wheels.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by ETroup

In physics we say that for every force there is an equal an opposite force.

When WD bars are cranked up or put under load, an equal an opposite force pushes up at their attachment point at the hitch hub. This in turns creates a force that pushes down on the tow vehicle’s front wheels and down on the trailer’s wheels. How much force is created is a function of the strength of the WD Bars force and the distances between the WD hitch hub and the front or trailer wheels.

Yes^, although brief for response purposes, and skips a lot of the "dirty" minutia of the relatively complex total system, from a physics perspective.
I think the word "weight", "weight moving...transfer...shift" etc. get people all messed up. If we talked in terms of forces, maybe that would help. Weight is simply a label...or unit of measurement of force.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Yes^, although brief for response purposes, and skips a lot of the "dirty" minutia of the relatively complex total system, from a physics perspective.
I think the word "weight", "weight moving...transfer...shift" etc. get people all messed up. If we talked in terms of forces, maybe that would help. Weight is simply a label...or unit of measurement of force.

OK…we use just enough “FORCE” to get the proper weight to the location where it will do the most good.

Bob
:wally

[Colossus]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

OK…we use just enough “FORCE” to get the proper weight to the location where it will do the most good.



Bob

:wally

Lol … classic response. Lol

[tjdonahoe]

Originally Posted by TomKriek

Does the weight of a WD hitch add to the tongue weight? Weigh Safe says no, but it seems to me it would be no different than adding 100 lbs to the front of the trailer. What are your thoughts and should I take into consideration the weight of a WD/Antisway hitch?

Where else would it go ? When hooked up up it would be distributed.

[SailorSam205]

My comment... I had my rig weighed by RVSEF, the Recreational Vehicle Safety Education Foundation. They weighed my truck without the trailer (all 4 wheels) then truck and trailer (8 wheels - 4 truck + 4 trailer) with the WD active. The difference in the weight of the truck was listed as tongue weight.
What surprised me was the variation in the weights of the trailer tires both fore/aft and side to side.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by SailorSam205

My comment... I had my rig weighed by RVSEF, the Recreational Vehicle Safety Education Foundation. They weighed my truck without the trailer (all 4 wheels) then truck and trailer (8 wheels - 4 truck + 4 trailer) with the WD active. The difference in the weight of the truck was listed as tongue weight.
What surprised me was the variation in the weights of the trailer tires both fore/aft and side to side.

This is a cross industry conundrum of words. "Tongue weight" from the trailer manufacturers standpoint is the weight placed on the ball by the coupler. From the TV manufacturers standpoint, tongue weight is the weight placed on the receiver by a hitched trailer. Same word...two different definitions. It aggravates me to no end that the industries can't get a common vernacular.

[dznf0g]

IMHO,
Tongue weight = the weight placed on the ball by the coupler

Receiver weight = the effective weight placed on the TV receiver by the hitch and the trailer coupler.

Hitch weight= the dead weight of the hitch components.

[pteck]

Yes, it does. There's no magic there.

While they all do generally transfer weight by torsion, it doesn't negate the added mass to the vehicle.

Also consider that some designs put that weight even further in cantilever (further behind the rear axle). Notably PPP type hitches. So what they do in geometry to benefit lateral sway, they do notably worse in porpoising as they are quite a bit heavier, and hang the weight of itself and tongue weight, further aft. Sure, WD tension helps, but doesn't remove that weight magically.

[Andy543]

The problem of too much tongue weight is not just that it makes porpoising worse, but that, when going around a turn, it creates a horizontal force on the back of the tow vehicle that could cause it to loose traction and spin out. Conventional wisdom says not to exceed 15% tongue weight, but IMO that's too much. The less tongue weight the better as far as the tow vehicle goes, but then if you go too low on tongue weight your trailer will start swaying. 10% is close to ideal as it strikes the best balance between tow vehicle stability and trailer swaying.

[Spartanfam]

The original question is... "Does the weight of a WD hitch add to the tongue weight?"
In answering the perceived intent of the question. NO.
- The WD hitch mounts to your truck and adds to your truck's payload, thus reducing the amount of payload your truck can carry.
- That said, the chain / WD brackets that mount to the trailer's A-frame do add a few pounds to the tongue weight... (so maybe I stand corrected)

The torque created by the 4 bar mechanism (known as the WD hitch and bars) apply equal and opposite moments... applying a force on the front truck axle and trailer axles.
The mass of the WD hitch does not 'disappear'.

I also believe, but as I have never worked on suspension systems or powertrains as an automotive engineer, payload is intended to be adhered to before WD artifically lifts the ass-end of your truck/SUV and applies a torque to 'shift' weight to other axles.

I'm sure someone will show me a CAT scale paper that indicates their truck magically weighs less than when it rolled off the factory floor... all while carrying the largest AS known to man. But I digress. I answered the original question.

[ETroup]

I might answer the question “Does a WDH add to the tongue weight” differently.

1. The WDH components added to the trailer add to the trailer’s unhitched weight.

2. The WDH components added to the tow vehicle’s hitch receiver add to the tow vehicle’s unhitched weight.

3. The resultant downward force exerted on the steering axle, drive axle, and trailer axles with trailer connected but WD not cranked up / not connected compared to the forces on the tow vehicle axles when disconnected will give one a measure of the force on the tongue. The net increase in the sum of the two tow vehicle’s axles must be the tongue weight (without WD).

4. The resultant downward forces on the three axles with the trailer connected and WD cranked up to its full adjustment will give a 2nd set of measures allowing one to calculate the net effect of the weight distribution system on each axle as well as tongue weight with WD on. The net increase in the sum of the two tow vehicle’s axles must be tongue weight with WD on - presumably it will be less than in step 3 to the extent some weight was shifted to the trailer’s axles.

[ROBERT CROSS]

...that the more you 'learn' your own rig the less relevant all the force, weight, tension verbiage becomes.

In the past when I worried about the lash-up it was because something in the towing experience caused it...what was I doing wrong?

Now if it feels right it probably is.

I CAT only when loaded out of the norm and none of the learned settings correct the feeling of 'not right'.

It 'ain't roket sieance after all.

May the weight be with you.

Bob
🇺🇸