Time for a new TV - Tundra or Sierra?

[crispyboy]

jeffmc306,
Congrats on the new ride! Looks like your just squeezing it in the garage. I do the same thing - feels like I am trying to put an elephant in a shoe box.

[jeffmc306]

You’re absolutely right! Pulled into the garage last night after the wife’s car was in and had to call her on the phone to please move her car over a bit. Couldn’t get out of the truck! It’s down to inches either way - but I’ll put up with a little inconvenience over scraping frost and ice off the windows.

[jeffmc306]

Countryboy & r carl, I understand your points.

But those foreign company vehicles are built by American auto workers making a good wage. It’s a global economy!

I work for an American-based company located in 18 countries. We take great care to make our 15K workers feel like they’re not just working for an American company, but part of an inclusive organization. In fact, it’s part of our Core Values and who we are :-).

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by jeffmc306

Countryboy & r carl, I understand your points.

But those foreign company vehicles are built by American auto workers making a good wage. It’s a global economy!

I work for an American-based company located in 18 countries. We take great care to make our 15K workers feel like they’re not just working for an American company, but part of an inclusive organization. In fact, it’s part of our Core Values and who we are :-).

Not arguing the point, just stating what “foreign” refers to. I personally don’t care where they’re built; I make parts for all the OEMs. My preference at purchase is never based on brand. I’ve owned most of them. I feel the original poster is better off with the Sierra (remember the original question). I don’t want either of those half tons, or any half ton actually.

I buy used, so the money goes directly into the owner’s pocket. So the whole “where does the profit go” question is moot also.

[Gene]

Thought I'd check in and see nothing has changed. I've seen the same stories over and over for more than 11 years.

If the OP hasn't made up his mind, he (or she) should go somewhere else where there may be some objectivity.

It used to be said on truck wars threads, the Tundra had more US parts than any other full sized truck. But the vehicle business is wholly internationalized and parts come from multiple countries and the vehicles are sold in multiple countries, so "American made" or "American owned" don't tell us much. How many Americans own stock in Japanese, South Korean or the Italian company?

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Gene

Thought I'd check in and see nothing has changed. I've seen the same stories over and over for more than 11 years.

If the OP hasn't made up his mind, he (or she) should go somewhere else where there may be some objectivity.

It used to be said on truck wars threads, the Tundra had more US parts than any other full sized truck. But the vehicle business is wholly internationalized and parts come from multiple countries and the vehicles are sold in multiple countries, so "American made" or "American owned" don't tell us much. How many Americans own stock in Japanese, South Korean or the Italian company?

I think it was a pretty good discussion regarding the OP original question, Tundra or Sierra. I looked at both manufacturers’ displays at the 2019 Auto Show and it’s amazing how different they actually are.

[Snerf]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Interesting though these nice 1/2T PU's had such a low payload rating and many of us didn't pay attention few years back...now it's one of the first things to check it seems.

Take a look at my attached handwritten notes that summarize the different F series payload ratings. These are all taken off actual door jamb stickers. I went to a few different local dealers and took photos until I wore out my welcome.

Anyway, the thing that immediately jumps out - at least to me - is the odd lack of continuity between the F150 & F250 payload numbers. Even accounting for a 50% jump in chassis rating ie 1/2 to 3/4 ton, the numbers appear to be really off. I mean, how is it possible to go from 1,825 lbs for a 4x2 147" wb 3.5l to 3,750 lbs for a 4x2 164" wb 6.2l?

However, by inserting the HDPP equipped F150 trucks as a separate segment, all of a sudden the progression from 1/2 to 3/4 to 1 ton looks smoother. That is, 2,625 157" wb compared to 3,750 164" wb now makes perfect sense based just on the increased chassis specs and dynamics.

So, what doe this tell us? IMO, what it tells us is what has really been happening behind the scenes with the broad market migration to light trucks and SUVs. That is, the auto mfgs had to **de-rate** traditional truck performance to enhance and improve ride & comfort for the millions upon millions of people using trucks like the F150 as their daily drivers.

IOW, they had to take the truck out of the truck. They covered some of it up by claiming advanced technology, improved dampening, adaptive controls, etc. But the simple fact of the matter is they simply turned the truck into a car - while still getting EPA and other gov't mandated safety & emission waivers.

It's only when you now have to add actual truck features (HDPP, max tow) back to the F150 platform that the payload numbers once again begin to make sense in comparison to the F250 & F350. And all the while, people who are looking for real light trucks have been unaware of these changes, thinking the ride and comfort they and their wives enjoy was due to something entirely different.

Yet, how many times has it been said that physics is physics? There isn't any free lunch, no miracle, solution, no magic pony for all the deserving boys and girls. Rather, it's simply a matter of weight, inertia and basic Newtonian observations. So, yeah, thanx to the interwebs the information is slowly getting out, but how many people have had to learn the hard way?

[Bev1940]

Originally Posted by walker77

So we have a 03 F-150 currently with 95k on it. I decided we need a new truck when the brakes went out while towing our 25ft classic. We were coming off the highway when they went out. Only thing that saved us was the brakes on the trailer. That has been the only time that I've really been shook up while pulling. Ended up the hydraulic line running to the rear had been rubbing on the frame all these years and finally broke. Lost all pressure. Peddle went all the way to the floor.

I've really been looking at the 1/2 ton 2018 sierra. I really like the looks of it. And I've towed with my dads 2015 duramax. I fell in love with the built in trailer brake control.

I stopped by the Toyota dealer tonight. The new tundra isn't bad either. And we have had good luck with our Camry.


Anyone tow with both? How does the built in trailer brake compare?

Sierra . I bought my 1st Sierra long box reg cab 2wd in 1999 and drove it for 15 years. When it was 13 years old I towed my 1978 31' AS to Whitehorse YK and back a trip of well over 5000 miles, no problems at all ! I now have a 2014 Sierra and it is even better! It has down hill engine braking which is nice as well as many other features I didn't expect on a basic 2wd and it tows my old Tincan great! Plus you've gotta love the GMC grill!

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Snerf

Take a look at my attached handwritten notes that summarize the different F series payload ratings. These are all taken off actual door jamb stickers. I went to a few different local dealers and took photos until I wore out my welcome.

Anyway, the thing that immediately jumps out - at least to me - is the odd lack of continuity between the F150 & F250 payload numbers. Even accounting for a 50% jump in chassis rating ie 1/2 to 3/4 ton, the numbers appear to be really off. I mean, how is it possible to go from 1,825 lbs for a 4x2 147" wb 3.5l to 3,750 lbs for a 4x2 164" wb 6.2l?

However, by inserting the HDPP equipped F150 trucks as a separate segment, all of a sudden the progression from 1/2 to 3/4 to 1 ton looks smoother. That is, 2,625 157" wb compared to 3,750 164" wb now makes perfect sense based just on the increased chassis specs and dynamics.

So, what doe this tell us? IMO, what it tells us is what has really been happening behind the scenes with the broad market migration to light trucks and SUVs. That is, the auto mfgs had to **de-rate** traditional truck performance to enhance and improve ride & comfort for the millions upon millions of people using trucks like the F150 as their daily drivers.

IOW, they had to take the truck out of the truck. They covered some of it up by claiming advanced technology, improved dampening, adaptive controls, etc. But the simple fact of the matter is they simply turned the truck into a car - while still getting EPA and other gov't mandated safety & emission waivers.

It's only when you now have to add actual truck features (HDPP, max tow) back to the F150 platform that the payload numbers once again begin to make sense in comparison to the F250 & F350. And all the while, people who are looking for real light trucks have been unaware of these changes, thinking the ride and comfort they and their wives enjoy was due to something entirely different.

Yet, how many times has it been said that physics is physics? There isn't any free lunch, no miracle, solution, no magic pony for all the deserving boys and girls. Rather, it's simply a matter of weight, inertia and basic Newtonian observations. So, yeah, thanx to the interwebs the information is slowly getting out, but how many people have had to learn the hard way?

Way overthinking things...IMHO Auto companies are in business to attract buyers by providing vehicles for different applications, true; however, the roll of a "truck" from a "work only" type vehicle for the average household has changed over the years...come to Texas or Montana and look at how many trucks you see in people's driveways. The argument about ride as well as utility use has driven the need to provide an all around solution...bigger trucks haul bigger loads/tow bigger trailers, if you will...but the ride as pointed out, has evolved to giving the customer a smoother car like ride, using technologies today for both safety and functionality of the job. Is it perfect? No, but I can tell you after towing with full size van's and SUV's, I prefer the new pickups for towing and hauling my camp gear. Why a 1/2T vs a 3/4-1T?? Size of the job and size of the trailer; larger trailer larger truck...benefits of larger brakes, capability...but important to read the payload and know the ratings for sure.

[Snerf]

Originally Posted by gypsydad

Auto companies are in business to attract buyers by providing vehicles for different applications, true.

You're absolutely correct, of course. I guess my point was somewhat akin to the classic Patton line "... I read your book!" That is, once you figure out the player's game, it all makes perfect sense. IOW, the auto mfgs are going to sell exactly what the customers' want.

The issue only becomes a problem when buyers mistakenly think they're getting certain light duty features that will service their needs, but find out otherwise the hard way. That's why so many people who post here express surprise when the magic trick is revealed of why ride is better but payload lower.

However, caveat emptor still applies; it's everyone's duty to perform their own due diligence and make their own decisions. That's why I posted the crib cheat sheet. It should now be found by any cursory search, and perhaps a few people will appreciate the information all in one place. If they still go ahead and commit to a TV that will quickly be over-loaded, that's their choice.

---

Now, for my next task: finding the truck(s) with the shortest rear overhang. LOL

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Snerf

You're absolutely correct, of course. I guess my point was somewhat akin to the classic Patton line "... I read your book!" That is, once you figure out the player's game, it all makes perfect sense. IOW, the auto mfgs are going to sell exactly what the customers' want.

The issue only becomes a problem when buyers mistakenly think they're getting certain light duty features that will service their needs, but find out otherwise the hard way. That's why so many people who post here express surprise when the magic trick is revealed of why ride is better but payload lower.

However, caveat emptor still applies; it's everyone's duty to perform their own due diligence and make their own decisions. That's why I posted the crib cheat sheet. It should now be found by any cursory search, and perhaps a few people will appreciate the information all in one place. If they still go ahead and commit to a TV that will quickly be over-loaded, that's their choice.

---

Now, for my next task: finding the truck(s) with the shortest rear overhang. LOL

Look at the options available, or perhaps "build an alternative that suits your goals". lots of good choices here, and no choice is ever perfect...even AS! Stop making yourself crazy; get a TV for your AS, and if it does not work out, use your experience to get what floats your boat...

[80Ram]

You might want to look at the Nissan Titan . Only truck with a 5 yr. 100,000 mile warranty. I haven’t driven one myself but am going to take a look at one.

[Lensman]

Please take time to consider the NISSAN TITAN XD 5.O CUMMINS DIESEL.
Also available in gas version
5 year/ 100,000 mile warranty

All American made.
Designed in California
Engineered in Michigan
Tested in Arizona
Built in Mississippi
Powered in Indiana and Tennessee
3/4 ton Pick up
555 torque
6 speed Aisian transmission

2080 payload
12,300 pound tow
Every convenience and option know to man.
What I like the most is the Zero Gravity seats. I can drive all day without fatigue.

Library quite.
I drive the XD Gas version with the 7 speed transmission.

Built with commercial grade components, fit and finish is outstanding.

Only wish is for an exhaust brake, possibly only be used on diesels I suppose.

[Airtream]

While renting a trailer many years ago, a UHaul salesman declined to rent to someone else wanting to use an E350 to pull something. His reasoning: "Just because you can pull it doesn't mean you can stop it."

The reality of this quote hit last summer when pulling in downtown Indy during rush hour traffic and rain. Twice, going downhill, I had to lock up the brakes or the the Honda in front of me and I were going to get to know each other in a way neither of us wanted.

That's why I like the 3/4 tons. While it is true that many can pull, not all can stop. After all, that is what caused the first entry of this thread to be opened - brake failure. I use my 2500 as a daily driver in heavy traffic. The huge front and rear disk brakes have saved my bacon numerous times.

(When do I get awarded a rivet?)

[Snerf]

Originally Posted by Airtream

That's why I like the 3/4 tons. While it is true that many can pull, not all can stop.

Well, at the risk of derailing the thread, that's what the Dexter disk brake and Tuson brake controller are all about. Of course, it's another $2k; so add that on top of the $8k premium the F150 3.5 EB HDPP enjoys over a generic F250 6.2 gasser. (AKA "white work truck" or WWT.)

What does this extra $10k get you? You get a better daily driver, better gas mileage, easier around town use, and the wife might enjoy driving it now and then. The after-market upgrades gives you primary TT brake control so that the TV isn't bearing the brunt.

OTOH, saving $10k gets you a tow monster that might not even know a 25' TT is attached. You might still want to spring for the disk/controller, which then provides a really big margin: the trailer brakes THEN the TV brakes if all else fails.

Downside is non-tow use: low tech, mature V8, poor MPG, hard ride, sort of bear around town - ah, the age old trade-off. Part of me wants to say screw it and just go for the obvious F250 overkill solution. The F150 HDPP takes more time, effort & money. HDPP is a special order item that takes 8 weeks to build. And forget about getting any discounts or dealer incentives.

I'm lucky that we're taking this slow. As I've mentioned on a few other threads, we have a Lazy Daze class C MH. The same debates and trade-offs occur with MHs as well. For all that, I know one thing for certain: give yourself some GVWR margin. Almost all MHs operate right on the limit, many times over. People want features and amenities, and THOR et al are more than happy to oblige by loading them on.

LD is know for being pretty high quality and well thought out, yet we struggle to keep ours around 90%. Part of the reason is that it's one of only a handful sporting the big block 454 (7.4l) on a 22' layout - a true unicorn. Yes, it can pass cars going up steep Western grades, but it's also a big hunk of heavy iron. (Which is why I've spent plenty of $ redoing the entire brake system from rotors, calipers, lines, master & slave cylinders. Aye carumba, it all adds up.)

That's why the F250 appeals - it is close to around 2x the towing threshold for a 25' AS. That's why people often mention they don't even know a TT is behind them.

[Kanusport]

I have a 4x4 super crew 6’ bed f150 ecoboost with max tow and xlt and the door sticker is 1769lbs or so. That is plenty for me. Ideally you’d add the heavy payload if you need more.

In the end as long as you’re happy and safe that’s all that matters.

I’d say that tundra is due for a redesign. Great truck though. The oil change is a PIA

[SailorSam205]

Originally Posted by Snerf

The F150 HDPP takes more time, effort & money. HDPP is a special order item that takes 8 weeks to build. And forget about getting any discounts or dealer incentives.

Dealers I've worked with on many ordered vehicles have always applied all currently available incentives.

[Rocinante]

Also: if you’re a Costco member and use their buying service to get pricing when you order a vehicle, pretty sure the Costco pricing would apply to that vehicle too.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by SailorSam205

Dealers I've worked with on many ordered vehicles have always applied all currently available incentives.

My experience has been the same. There may be some factory incentives not applicable to a special order if they have built more than the market can absorb and want to reduce inventories, but I usually get better dealer pricing than for an in-stock vehicle. It helps to deal with the team at the dealership that handles special orders, and not a sales rep incented based solely on moving in-stock models.