SUV and 27 ft Airstream

[Ky76Argosy]

Perfectly balanced, raised hitch a ball height to be perfectly level - front to rear & side to side, TV perfectly loaded, perfectly aired tires, perfectly balanced AS load over both axles, now petrified with indecision and recheck everything again perfectly. Just saying. When is enough enough??

So what is included in gross AS curb weight? Argosy 26, tandem axles weighs 3960#, 520# tongue weight. Can you tell me is that with smaller 25# gas tanks, and with or without load of fresh water in a front tank? Gotta be perfectly sure!

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Perfectly balanced, raised hitch a ball height to be perfectly level - front to rear & side to side, TV perfectly loaded, perfectly aired tires, perfectly balanced AS load over both axles, now petrified with indecision and recheck everything again perfectly. Just saying. When is enough enough??

So what is included in gross AS curb weight? Argosy 26, tandem axles weighs 3960#, 520# tongue weight. Can you tell me is that with smaller 25# gas tanks, and with or without load of fresh water in a front tank? Gotta be perfectly sure!

I don't think perfect is the goal. But to understand and be aware of where the variables are to facilitate setup and strike the right balance. I think you're already ahead of the game as you're taking the time to do it yourself. No professional service is going give the same amount of care and be there on the road if adjustments are necessary. If it's handling well and drives with confidence, good job, goal achieved.

We all started from new at one point. Reflecting back, the hardest part is to wade through all the information, separating out mis-information, anecdotes, and real. Then apply and learn the ropes. There's so much tacit learning to be done that can't exactly be conveyed in writing. Add to that the variables of different tow vehicles, trailers, and combinations, it can be daunting.

Can't blame those that reach for the HD truck, but this is also a balance of variables where a 1/2 with the right stuff can be made to work with less compromise than many believe. An HD truck is certainly not without compromise. Use case is important, and only the individual can answer if that's the right balance for their use.

[Ky76Argosy]

Airstream recommends for my ‘76 Argosy 26 a 19 1/2” hitch height. Found add on weight itemization: posted by Kevin Allen

“I found the '73 literature that I have, and while it is not complete, it does have the Argosy 26 data as follows:
Argosy 26 Twin:
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating: 6,200 lbs.
Empty (unladen) Weight: 3,830 lbs.
Allowable Additional Weight: 2,370 lbs.
Arosy 26 Double:
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating: 6,200 lbs.
Empty (unladen) Weight: 3,850 lbs.
Allowable Additional Weight: 2,350 lbs.

Optional Weights:
Air Conditioner (113 lbs.); Auxiliary Main Step (12 lbs.); Auxiliary Waste Tank (70 lbs.); BAL Stabilizing Jacks (60 lbs.); Battery Charger (90 lbs.); Bunk Bed (45 lbs.); Entertainment Group (17 lbs.); Safety Group (10 lbs.); Space Locker (20 lbs.); Spare Wheel Bracket (10 lbs.); Spare Wheel and Tire (60 lbs.); Television Antenna (5 lbs.); Television Swing-Up Shelf (5 lbs.); Vista View Window 18" (5 lbs.); and Vista View Window 30" (8 lbs.).

Variable Weights:
LPG per full tank: 5-Gal. - - - - 20 lbs.; 7-Gal. - - - - 28 lbs.; 7.5-Gal. - - - - 30 lbs.; 10-Gal. - - - - - 40 lbs.
Water Tank: 30-Gal. - - - - 248 lbs.
Water Heater: 6-Gal. - - - - 50 lbs.
Main Holding Tank: 12-Gal. - - - - - 100 lbs.
Auxiliary Holding Tank: 10-Gal. - - - - - 83 lbs.

Kevin
__________________
Kevin D. Allen
WBCCI (Lifetime Member)/VAC #7864
AIR #827”

[SteveNdebbie]

I’ll call this “The Tale of Two Set-Ups.” This was our first travel trailer ever and first time towing. We bought the 2006 Airstream Safari in 2017 from a place in Traverse City, MI. From there, we were scheduled to travel 350 miles to London, Ontario to Can Am RV to have reinforcement to our receiving hitch due to the tongue weight of the Airstream. Can Am said it would be fine since it was flat driving.

We made the trip, but every time we exited off the highway it seem like the trailer was pushing me down the exit ramp. Little did we realized that the trailer brake wasn’t set correctly, and the MDX was doing almost all the stopping. We also didn’t know that the stinger was upside down.

After the reinforcement to our hitch was performed Can Am suggested that they redo our set-up. We agreed so for about $200 more they shortened the stinger by drilling another hole for the pin, reset the brakes, and Andy Thompson accompanying us on a test, drive around several blocks in town to give me some hints on turning and braking and to see how the rig felt. The difference was amazing. Our trip from London Ontario back to home in northeast Ohio was a very different towing experience.

The difference between tongue up and tongue level/slightly down discussion made me think of this. A couple of times I tried to readjust my weight distribution so that my rear end would sag less, but towing felt less secure that way.

A couple of pics before and after…

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Just asking again, if you put the Anvil, food, and added load weight at rear of the AS does that decrease tongue weight?

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Thanks for explanations and responses. But slight rearward weight of contents does drop tongue weight. 2017 Chevy Silverado 1/2 ton tows Argosy 26 fairly easily with Curtis sway bars. Grand Canyon and Yellowstone trips hitting cross-wind warnings and semis. Place my weight items over axles. And extra water in rear tub. Reduce weight up front slightly. Also tow with a slightly downward AS front angle on hitch. Rarely speed over 65-70 max mph too. I feel Speed is the factor commonly overlooked for safety.

Here's a great video for visualizing what happens with the trailer's stability depending on where the weigh in a trailer is placed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeEEC5eVNCk&t=367s

Like many things in life, the goal here is optimization and not perfection. Try and get the weight centered over the axles as best as you can, and work to eliminate any obvious problem areas. If you're going to be carrying an anvil regularly, create a carrier for it that is placed over the axles. We regularly leave for long trips with a full supply of beverages, so I made an ottoman which holds the bulk of the heavy items. During travel that ottoman is placed in the hallway directly between the axles so it help stabilize the trailer instead of creating a sway event.

However, if your tongue weight is too heavy placing items in the rear of the trailer to offset it can make small problem (heavy tongue weight) into a huge problem (sway inducing imbalance). Better to move these things towards the center.

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Airstream recommends for my ‘76 Argosy 26 a 19 1/2” hitch height. Found add on weight itemization: posted by Kevin Allen

....

Optional Weights:
Air Conditioner (113 lbs.); Auxiliary Main Step (12 lbs.); Auxiliary Waste Tank (70 lbs.); BAL Stabilizing Jacks (60 lbs.); Battery Charger (90 lbs.); Bunk Bed (45 lbs.); Entertainment Group (17 lbs.); Safety Group (10 lbs.); Space Locker (20 lbs.); Spare Wheel Bracket (10 lbs.); Spare Wheel and Tire (60 lbs.); Television Antenna (5 lbs.); Television Swing-Up Shelf (5 lbs.); Vista View Window 18" (5 lbs.); and Vista View Window 30" (8 lbs.).
....

Take these weights with a grain of salt. One that caught my eye is the 90 lbs for the battery charger. Good chance that the OEM boat anchor of a charger has long ago been replaced with a more modern and lightweight unit, and the same might be the case for everything else. Lots of changes can be done since the 70s on a travel trailer.

[Gene]

Yes, balance is important. We like to store the anvil collection with an equal number on each side over the axles. Then we balance the wood stove with the wood. I have always wondered why some trailers have the kitchen or bathroom at the rear or front, since these are the heaviest areas, though the kitchen is heavier. Storing things in the rear, in the bumper, tied to rear end, is asking for the trailer to act like a pendulum.

You can decrease tongue weight by removing the spare tire from the carrier under the front and putting it over the truck rear axle. Moving the batteries would do even more, but then you’d have to find a safe place for them. Lithium is still very expensive.

I think the first thing to do when adjusting the hitch it to get the trailer level. Then level the truck as best you can, leaving no more than 1/2” difference between the front and rear wheel cutouts. Then get the bars as level as possible. The trailer must be level, do the best you can with the other two. This can require hours of fine tuning, trying all the variables to find the best setup. It is worth it, though also can be frustrating. Finding a level place to do this in Colorado can be a challenge. Parking lots everywhere are built to direct water to drains, so they aren’t level either.

[Ky76Argosy]

Good info. And true. Hard to level exactly on uneven parking lots.

But “Owners Manual” for my ‘76 Argosy 26 says “hitch height 19 1/2””. Also “hitch weight” as 520#.

So, trying to experiment to shift load weight effectively to gets these results. And measuring TV cutout gap within “1/2”” with squat consistent with hitch height recommendation. And move load “anvil” rearward as needed. Then re-weigh hitch weight to test if 520# or if more or less. Then recheck other suggested parameters eg tire pressures. Then put all occupants in truck and ask friend to check TV wheel cutout gap and hitch height again, and repeat again.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Good info. And true. Hard to level exactly on uneven parking lots.

But “Owners Manual” for my ‘76 Argosy 26 says “hitch height 19 1/2””. Also “hitch weight” as 520#.

So, trying to experiment to shift load weight effectively to gets these results. And measuring TV cutout gap within “1/2”” with squat consistent with hitch height recommendation. And move load “anvil” rearward as needed. Then re-weigh hitch weight to test if 520# or if more or less. Then recheck other suggested parameters eg tire pressures. Then put all occupants in truck and ask friend to check TV wheel cutout gap and hitch height again, and repeat again.

Hitch "height" can vary also with tire size, lift kit? Manual does not take that into account, likely. Moving load/weight "rearward"?? Not recommended.

[Spaggs]

I would not tow a 27/28’ with anything less than an F-250. I have a 2000 Excursion with F-350 springs, 4:56 LS, air bags, etc., and I consider this to be marginal.

[pteck]

To be fair, not all rigs are made equal. Time has also moved on that the new generation of vehicles are stronger with more capability, even if they may hail from the same class.

Admittedly, I am over some key factory capacities. Not condoning this, and it's not without ample consideration and tweaks. But she drives with great stability and performance that I have no interest in going up to a 3/4-ton.

[foobar]

Agree with ptech.

We are towing a 2022 Globetrotter 27fb twin with a 2016 Porsche Cayenne S.

My Cayenne has larger and more capable brakes than an F250 (designed for extended periods running hot on a racetrack), it has similar horsepower and torque vs an F250 gas engine (420HP and 406ft-lbs of torque @1350 rpm) and has a monocoque construction reinforced with a subframe that is stiffer than any pickup truck.

What it doesn't have is spare payload. Even so, I am towing within all manufacturers limits for the tow vehicle (GAWR, GVWR, etc).

It is rock solid in terms of stability. And I guarantee we can stop in less distance in an emergency stop as compared to any 3/4 ton trucks.

We have cruised at 80+mph in good conditions on Texas highways. We have been up and down 10% grades and on winding, twisty roads with hairpin turns. 50-60mph gusty crosswinds traveling at 70mph, with 18 wheelers passing at 85mph... No problems at all.

Eventually, we will move to an 3/4 or 1 ton truck so we will have additional payload for more 'stuff' like e-bikes and portable smokeless firepits, etc.

You don't 'need' a 3/4 ton truck to safely and comfortably tow a 27 ft Airstream with its low center of gravity.

Would I tow a similar weight white box trailer with a high center of gravity due to having slide-outs? Absolutely not.

As ptech says, all rigs are not created equal.

[propchef]

Originally Posted by Spaggs

I would not tow a 27/28’ with anything less than an F-250. I have a 2000 Excursion with F-350 springs, 4:56 LS, air bags, etc., and I consider this to be marginal.

With all due respect, you're talking about a modified 23 YO truck.

Our 2019 X5 tows without drama or issue and I can park it when not towing. I see no advantage to a 3/4 ton other than payload (if needed).

[bluebirdrad]

2009 Flying Cloud 27 FB
2017 Lincoln Navigator
Blue Ox Sway Pro Hitch -- set tight and level with the 1000 lb bars.

Our longest trip 6000 or so miles from Florida to Death Valley through the parks in Utah. I rarely exceed 65 on the interstate and on lesser roads drive conditions. I don't overload. Have done fine with this. Sway is not an issue. Had a Pro Pride and switched to the Blue Ox -- my personal preference is the Blue Ox. I don't want or need a big pickup. Navigator is wife's car, I drive a 10 year old Honda CR-V. When I get truck envy these days I check the prices on the web -- that dampens my enthusiasm. If I were buying a truck for my rig, I would get the full cab F-150 with longer wheelbase than my Navigator. I don't think I need extra horsepower. Maybe I am a menace to public safety but I feel I'm towing safely and responsibly.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by Spaggs

I would not tow a 27/28’ with anything less than an F-250. I have a 2000 Excursion with F-350 springs, 4:56 LS, air bags, etc., and I consider this to be marginal.

I've got a 1999 Suburban 2500 (3/4-ton) which is a slightly lighter and less capable truck than your Excursion. Surprising to hear you rate the towing experience in yours as marginal, especially with the beefed up springs and all.

The Excursion I drove when I was shopping for my truck seemed like a pretty stout tow vehicle. What specifically do you find lacking in your Excursion?

[DCPAS]

Originally Posted by foobar

And I guarantee we can stop in less distance in an emergency stop as compared to any 3/4 ton trucks.

I know you are right, but I think that is also true of most half tons versus a 3/4 ton. I suggest what people mean (or should mean) by better stopping power in a 3/4 ton is not simple straight line stopping ability. What they mean is stopping with the trailer having a lateral upset, like an avoidance maneuver combined with a panic stop. In that setting, a truck with more mass and footprint may do better.

[s1000pre]

Originally Posted by DCPAS

I know you are right, but I think that is also true of most half tons versus a 3/4 ton. I suggest what people mean (or should mean) by better stopping power in a 3/4 ton is not simple straight line stopping ability. What they mean is stopping with the trailer having a lateral upset, like an avoidance maneuver combined with a panic stop. In that setting, a truck with more mass and footprint may do better.

I have criss-crossed and circled the entire country pulling my 25’ & 30’ airstreams over 28k miles with an F150, and now an Expedition. I agree that a heavier TV is better in a situation where you will be wrestling the weight of the trailer. With that said, I am also a firm believer of the pivot point hitch (Hensley & Pro-Pride) designed. I upgraded after using a BlueOx Sway Pro for a year. These PP hitches give you more control of the trailer. They don’t allow the trailer to toss around the rear of the TV which is where the trouble lies. I just had a conversation with another who has a new f350 and upgraded his hitch to a Pro-Pride. He couldn’t believe the difference it made in windy conditions and passing big rigs.
I am going to say that I have as much or more control with my Expedition Hensley combination, as an F350 pulling my trailer without a Hensley or ProPride.
Yes, the ultimate control would be a Superduty with Hensley/ProPride. Then again, how about a 450, or 550.

My point: I have ultimate safety confidence in my SUV/trailer combination using a PP hitch. Pros: I have 8 seats, better turning radius, easier to park, comfortable/smoother ride, takes up less space at campsites. Con’s: will probably wear out faster than a truck designed specifically for towing, slightly lower fuel economy, won’t haul your excavator.
just make sure sure your TV payload/towing numbers are adequate