SUV and 27 ft Airstream

[SteveNdebbie]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

What kind of engine do you have in your MDX? Just curious.

Ours is a 2011 MDX with 3.7 L 300 hp Vtech V6 maximum torque 270 ft/lbs at 4500 rpm (redline 6700 rpm). We use the paddle shifters for the six speed transmission and it does have a transmission cooler. When we bought the MDX used in 2014 we had no idea we would use it as a tow vehicle but it has served us very well since we started towing in 2017 as our daily driver and tow vehicle. We were very fortunate that our 2006 AS Safari came with a Hensley arrow hitch, and that we could go to Can-Am to have the setup done. When replacement time comes we would like to have something with a bit more torque, payload capacity, and not need premium fuel.

It has performed flawlessly for us and we really enjoyed our big trip going from Ohio to the Oregon and California coast and back for a total of 6000 miles in September 2018.

[SteveNdebbie]

Originally Posted by s1000pre

Agreed

And double agree!!! It’s to bad the OP was “swayed” by the thread to ditch the SUV and go with the 3/4 ton. Andy Thompson could have given you the physics and real world experience as to the reason why trucks are not necessary the best tow vehicles for travel trailers, specially Airstreams. Daquenzer and other posters towards the end of this thread understand this pervasive myth.

Safe travels[emoji120]🤷!

[Gene]

Most people have no idea what they will carry in their trailer and tow vehicle. We decided that actual numbers were a good idea, so we got out everything we would carry from food to clothing to tools to the anvil collection. We weighed them all on a regular bathroom scale.

The anvils had to go unless we bought a 1 ton truck. Everything else, carefully chosen (sort of) was within the weight limits of the Tundra and Airstream. It was close, but doable. Neither of us had to have a limb amputated and we could even bring clothes. Food can be very, very heavy, especially if you buy lots of stuff in cans and bottles.

Years ago many posters used to claim you had to take 20% less cargo for safety. This seemed to arise from an estimate someone made and for years became like an old wives' tale, except it was an old guys' tale. I and others asked where those numbers came from, but no one knew. The lesson—lots people on the Forum and elsewhere know a lot, some do not, and you have to be the judge who is right for your situation. Then and now, others say the bigger the better. I prefer the right size is best, but calculating that is a pain and often based on guesses and some knowledge. Also don't believe trailer sales people who will claim you can tow it with a Smart Car.

Over the years it has become common knowledge that Airstream tongue weights are wildly wrong for some models. I have seen very different numbers for the same trailer in Airstream promotional info. We had a 25' FB and I think it said the tongue wt. was 700 lbs., but everyone who checked came up with at least a few hundred pounds more. I don't know how far off other models are, but good to research that.

Some people claim that if you add some parts to your tow vehicle, like extra rear springs, air bags or other suspension add-ons, you can increase the cargo capacity of a truck. But if you do so, check to see if the axle, brakes, transmission, etc., are up to the added weight. And how will the truck handle with different suspension parts? That info will be hard to find, but someone must have tried this and actually knew enough to figure out an answer—whether that answer is correct is another thing to consider. A local suspension shop may have answers, but maybe not—they will like selling you more parts, so consider their self interest. Andy Thompson in London, Ont., will modify a vehicle—such as a minivan—to tow an Airstream. Many people swear by Andy and I have seen nothing to indicate there have been major—or even minor—problems with his work. Some say it can't be done, but that is an opinion and not shown to be fact based. Many people have called Andy over the years and I guess he is pretty generous with his time, so that is another place to check.

Making the right choices when considering an RV is difficult, time consuming and full of decisions you may not be all that sure about. Some people get defeated by it. Just about everyone makes a few mistakes and learns from them. When the aluminitis infection takes hold, few of us can resist. When you go to look at Airstreams, don't bring money, checkbook our credit cards so you will not be tempted right then to buy that shiny new love item. Lust is not a good way to make decisions.

[crispyboy]

Originally Posted by Gene

Andy Thompson in London, Ont., will modify a vehicle—such as a minivan—to tow an Airstream. Many people swear by Andy and I have seen nothing to indicate there have been major—or even minor—problems with his work. Some say it can't be done, but that is an opinion and not shown to be fact based. Many people have called Andy over the years and I guess he is pretty generous with his time, so that is another place to check.

I find what Andy Thompson does is very interesting. I can understand why he puts the effort into making a family car usable as a tow vehicle as it saves the owner some money from purchasing a dedicated tow vehicle. I missed going to one of his towing presentations at Jackson Center several years ago, it would have been interesting. I have watched some of his videos. I have emailed him to double check my setup and get his opinion.

Some of my AS friends who have traveled much more extensively than us (still working) have ran into a few folks who use or have used smaller vehicles to tow with that were set up by Can Am. Many have changed to more robust vehicles because of the fiddling around with weighing things, not taking things they want with them or having to change routes due to terrain. One was getting a mini-van transmission replaced along the way because the North Carolina mountains took it out.
I can't always agree with what he does because my personal experience with a more robust tow vehicle. Most of our trips are within 5 hours or less except for our 3 week/several thousand mile trip last summer to the Rockies. I just don't experience the so called "problems" that a heavy duty truck is supposed to have. We have no less than a rock solid towing experience using our truck no matter how much stuff is put in the bed.
I am glad he is able to provide a good service for those who pack light or have smaller trailers.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by crispyboy

I find what Andy Thompson does is very interesting. I can understand why he puts the effort into making a family car usable as a tow vehicle as it saves the owner some money from purchasing a dedicated tow vehicle. I missed going to one of his towing presentations at Jackson Center several years ago, it would have been interesting. I have watched some of his videos. I have emailed him to double check my setup and get his opinion.

Some of my AS friends who have traveled much more extensively than us (still working) have ran into a few folks who use or have used smaller vehicles to tow with that were set up by Can Am. Many have changed to more robust vehicles because of the fiddling around with weighing things, not taking things they want with them or having to change routes due to terrain. One was getting a mini-van transmission replaced along the way because the North Carolina mountains took it out.
I can't always agree with what he does because my personal experience with a more robust tow vehicle. Most of our trips are within 5 hours or less except for our 3 week/several thousand mile trip last summer to the Rockies. I just don't experience the so called "problems" that a heavy duty truck is supposed to have. We have no less than a rock solid towing experience using our truck no matter how much stuff is put in the bed.
I am glad he is able to provide a good service for those who pack light or have smaller trailers.

Good analogy which is similar to our experience with our 3/4T F250 and the 28'. Not sure where the "problems" he mentions came from. The F150 worked great for towing our 25's; the F250 is great for our 28' FC. No issues to speak of towing and always feel in control. As some posters have noted, you can tow with just about anything safely, if you take your time and be careful.

[Ky76Argosy]

Just asking again, if you put the Anvil, food, and added load weight at rear of the AS does that decrease tongue weight?

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Just asking again, if you put the Anvil, food, and added load weight at rear of the AS does that decrease tongue weight?

Likely it can reduce tongue weight but moving weight to the rear also can contribute to sway. Not recommended as I recall. I am sure some folks will disagree, but AS does not recommend adding weight in the rear typically.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Just asking again, if you put the Anvil, food, and added load weight at rear of the AS does that decrease tongue weight?

So you're aware, this is common thought for those new to towing.

In reality, it's about the worse thing that can be done from a setup perspective. We talk about tongue weight as a possible constraint in this thread, but understand it is also an ally for stability. Commonly 10-15% of the total trailer weight on the tongue is a guide for good stability. AS are usually at the upper end of that.

Weight at the rear of the trailer (beyond the trailer axles) should be minimized as it can contribute to instability and sway. Heavy things should ideally be located around or above the trailer axles (e.g. water tanks).

This is part of the configuration we talk about and why some are successful towing with lighter TVs, and why some may feel they need heavier tow vehicles with more margin to account for variables elsewhere. These are tangible "dials" and variable that can be turned for a stable setup that many are unaware of. And may actually turn them the wrong way unsuspectingly...get it wrong enough and even an HD truck will sway. You might see pictures of crashed rigs, and it's often the case they might have some heavy thing hanging off the rear of the trailer.

[Ky76Argosy]

Thanks for explanations and responses. But slight rearward weight of contents does drop tongue weight. 2017 Chevy Silverado 1/2 ton tows Argosy 26 fairly easily with Curtis sway bars. Grand Canyon and Yellowstone trips hitting cross-wind warnings and semis. Place my weight items over axles. And extra water in rear tub. Reduce weight up front slightly. Also tow with a slightly downward AS front angle on hitch. Rarely speed over 65-70 max mph too. I feel Speed is the factor commonly overlooked for safety.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Thanks for explanations and responses. But slight rearward weight of contents does drop tongue weight. 2017 Chevy Silverado 1/2 ton tows Argosy 26 fairly easily with Curtis sway bars. Grand Canyon and Yellowstone trips hitting cross-wind warnings and semis. Place my weight items over axles. And extra water in rear tub. Reduce weight up front slightly. Also tow with a slightly downward AS front angle on hitch. Rarely speed over 65-70 max mph too. I feel Speed is the factor commonly overlooked for safety.

Speed is a factor of course; faster you go (65-70MPH) towing anything can get you into trouble easily; but so can towing at 55+MPH if your trailer load is not connected properly, or if sudden wind or semi passes you in certain situations. Not a fan of "bumper pull" with a heavy AS nor having your TT not level...not recommended to have any "downward angle" on the hitch- make it level; easy to do with right WDU hitch set up. TEHO...

[pteck]

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Thanks for explanations and responses. But slight rearward weight of contents does drop tongue weight. 2017 Chevy Silverado 1/2 ton tows Argosy 26 fairly easily with Curtis sway bars. Grand Canyon and Yellowstone trips hitting cross-wind warnings and semis. Place my weight items over axles. And extra water in rear tub. Reduce weight up front slightly. Also tow with a slightly downward AS front angle on hitch. Rarely speed over 65-70 max mph too. I feel Speed is the factor commonly overlooked for safety.

Sure, speed is a variable that can be controlled. That's how older cars got away with towing back in the day.

Consider the variables you can't control. 70MPH. Then add in wind. Grade. Lighter tongue weight with rear weight in the setup. All combined at once. I would wager critical speed to sway may well be less than 70MPH.

That is the crux of a good setup. You want to setup everything to your advantage. So there is margin to handle uncontrolled variables elsewhere. Maximize the stable performance envelope in other words.

You may be able to get away with a slight down angle with an older lighter trailer. But that downangle then translates more weight back to the tongue. I agree with gypsydad. This is not advisable with larger trailers, especially those with multiple axles. It puts more payload and stress artificially on the forward axle/bearings/tires.

Perhaps a more correct way is to accept the tongue weight. Dial up the WD tension to transfer more weigh to the TV front axle and back to the trailer axles.

[Ky76Argosy]

Gypsydad says no downward level to Trailer so has a “perfectly” level setup? I don’t know if I can get a “perfect” level anyway. Mine has >bubble down angle. Just the way my tongue sits on hitch ball. Read may provide nominal reduction of wind drag, or air lift at speed. Also feels like reduces tongue jump over bumps. And slight raise of rear may help reduce rear belly pan scrapes too. Argosy rolls nice. I don’t want front high for sure.

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Running down a steep grade, around a curve, with wind from either rear quarter is not a good combination for sway. Up a steep hill, just about no matter what, sway isn't going to be a big deal.

If you stay below 45 MPH, sway is very unlikely to be an issue. Getting rear ended by an idiot on the interstate is just about 100% certain (at least here in the east).

Even if you move up to 55 MPH, that idiot is still out to get you. He may not rear end you. He may just spend the next four hours brake checking you and otherwise trying to cause an accident. If you want to see this live and in person, come drive around here for a while. I'm not making this up.

Traffic on the typical interstate here is running between 75 and 80+ MHP most of the time. The trucks generally don't get much over 75, but the cars certainly do. Yes those signs by the side of the road seem to "recommend" a different speed be driven ( = limit is 65 or 70).

Even if the guy *isn't* an idiot, he's closing on you at >25 MPH if he's at 80+ and you are at 55. That's a pretty big margin. Sure, it's his fault when he hits you. If he dies and you are paralyzed in the accident, is that a win for anybody? I think not.

Better to get the rig set up to at least get *near* what everybody is driving than to compromise on the lash up and be running way slow. No, that's not the same as towing at 80 MPH .... 70 will get you a lot closer to everybody else.

Bob

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Ky76Argosy

Gypsydad says no downward level to Trailer so has a “perfectly” level setup? I don’t know if I can get a “perfect” level anyway. Mine has >bubble down angle. Just the way my tongue sits on hitch ball. Read may provide nominal reduction of wind drag, or air lift at speed. Also feels like reduces tongue jump over bumps. And slight raise of rear may help reduce rear belly pan scrapes too. Argosy rolls nice. I don’t want front high for sure.

Some folks are going to do what they are going to do anyway, right? "An un-level trailer can run the risk of controlling the towing vehicle instead of the other way round."

Several Youtubes and articles on how to do this and why it is important. Aerodynamics being off is major reason. You don't want sway. Here is but one article...there are lots more...but, it's your rig.

https://thervingsite.com/should-a-tr...l-when-towing/

[Silvr_Bullet]

Arm Chair Towing, with no mental distractions load your trailer as you load it it for a trip. Take it for a easy chair ride, think about the forces applied and resulting affect on your tow vehicle and trailer, accelerating, braking, how the weight of the trailer shifts weight as a result on the ground and pivoting points. add some rain, speed etc. On a dual axle trailer is the rear or forward axle even in weight carrying if not what result. The goal is to become part of the towing system and not a bystander.

[Silvr_Bullet]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Running down a steep grade, around a curve, with wind from either rear quarter is not a good combination for sway. Up a steep hill, just about no matter what, sway isn't going to be a big deal.

If you stay below 45 MPH, sway is very unlikely to be an issue. Getting rear ended by an idiot on the interstate is just about 100% certain (at least here in the east).

Even if you move up to 55 MPH, that idiot is still out to get you. He may not rear end you. He may just spend the next four hours brake checking you and otherwise trying to cause an accident. If you want to see this live and in person, come drive around here for a while. I'm not making this up.

Traffic on the typical interstate here is running between 75 and 80+ MHP most of the time. The trucks generally don't get much over 75, but the cars certainly do. Yes those signs by the side of the road seem to "recommend" a different speed be driven ( = limit is 65 or 70).

Even if the guy *isn't* an idiot, he's closing on you at >25 MPH if he's at 80+ and you are at 55. That's a pretty big margin. Sure, it's his fault when he hits you. If he dies and you are paralyzed in the accident, is that a win for anybody? I think not.

Better to get the rig set up to at least get *near* what everybody is driving than to compromise on the lash up and be running way slow. No, that's not the same as towing at 80 MPH .... 70 will get you a lot closer to everybody else.

Bob

I saw a rear bumper sticker several days ago, went something like this ‘ I apologize for driving in front of and close to you ‘

[Dennis C]

Gotta love a good towing thread to get the blood flowing on a Saturday morning. Over on the Class A forums that I’m now regularly visiting, they just don’t have anything as controversial to argue about as towing. The most spirited conversations that I’ve seen over there tend to revolve around tire pressure.

[foobar]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

Gotta love a good towing thread to get the blood flowing on a Saturday morning. Over on the Class A forums that I’m now regularly visiting, they just don’t have anything as controversial to argue about as towing. The most spirited conversations that I’ve seen over there tend to revolve around tire pressure.

Air in your tires is overrated anyway, lol.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

Gotta love a good towing thread to get the blood flowing on a Saturday morning. Over on the Class A forums that I’m now regularly visiting, they just don’t have anything as controversial to argue about as towing. The most spirited conversations that I’ve seen over there tend to revolve around tire pressure.

Slide outs...I hear there is a lot of discussion about slide outs...size, quantity, which type mechanisms are used, why they stick, and vehicle length...is 37' the best length or is it 42? Oh, and finding a camp spot in Glacier...lots of discussion about that with Class A owners..

[propchef]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

Gotta love a good towing thread to get the blood flowing on a Saturday morning. Over on the Class A forums that I’m now regularly visiting, they just don’t have anything as controversial to argue about as towing. The most spirited conversations that I’ve seen over there tend to revolve around tire pressure.

Nitrogen = +5 HP