Pulling with BMW X5i

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by bono

Of course, there are plenty of reasons to derate capabilities of vehicle and these were discussed here MANY times. I gave one of the examples: BMW limits speed in some of the cars, because they know that in the US cars drive much slower than in Europe. That gives them a chance to install lower speed rating tires, which translates to millions $ of savings.

Same with hitch on E70 - US hitch was rated to 6,000 lbs, where rest of the world used 7,700 lbs hitch. 6,000 lbs hitch is cheaper than 7,700 lbs. In the US only trucks can tow and nobody (apart from some crazy people) is thinking about serious towing with BMW. So why BMW would bother to install something more expensive?

"(...) It must be a hard pill to swallow." hahahaha, good one!

Rationalize it in your mind anyway that works for you. You must be proud of your European heritage and vehicles, and that's fine, but it clouds your vision. The numbers don't lie. BTW I don't think you're crazy because you tow with a BMW, I just see your bias preventing you from considering more capable choices. To each their own.

If BMW chooses to put tires with less stiff sidewalls on their vehicles for US markets and it precipitates tendency to oversteer in a towing test, so be it, BMW is free to make that choice. I would think a more clever marketing strategy would be to offer stiffer tires with the max tow hitch so they can claim higher limits. I suspect it is more fundamental than tires though, it is just too easy to fix a tire issue.

[Andrew T]

I have towed more travel trailers in more conditions with more different vehicles than anyone you will meet.

If it is connected properly it is pretty hard to beat a BMW X5 as a tow vehicle in pretty much any handling test you want to come up with. Heavy crosswinds, evasive maneuvers etc. In our slaloms I can run an X5 and 25' Airstream through the test about the same speed as a 3/4 ton pickup will solo. Stopping distance both towing and solo is dramatically shorter. A Porsche Cayenne GTS is a little better other than that I can't think of anything else that will touch it.

The wheel base is shorter than a long pickup but that is only one specification in every other specification it is superior. Rear over hand is shorter, the rear suspension stance is 20" wider than a live axle truck. The center of gravity is much lower, the tires are much stickier, the rims are wider and the steering is 10 times more precise. Beyond that the shocks and spring rates are optimal for towing. As I said it just doesn't get much better.

If you would like to send me a side on picture of your hitch setup (similiar to this one) I can give you a pretty good idea if your connected properly. Likely you are not, only about 5% of the trailers on the road actually are. The good news is a lot can be wrong with an X5 and a 20 and you will still be better than most combinations out there. andy@canamrv.ca

Andy

[jcl]

I have owned an earlier X5 (E53) and X3 (E83) and worked on both. I installed the BMW dealer-supplied hitch and wiring kit on each. I am familiar with the E70, and the F15 (third generation) which was based on the E70 chassis. I am not familiar with the G05, the fourth generation model, except by reading about it.

I have electronic versions of the BMW service manuals, which include the technical bulletins, but they don't cover the latest model.

For the F15, BMW went to a version of a hidden hitch, with a removable swan neck. It was designed to be invisible by being removable. Style was the goal, not function. While there was a 2" adaptor sold to fit the socket behind the bumper, it couldn't accept WD equipment. That was the point at which my recommendations switched from dealer-sold OE receivers to aftermarket. I understood that the G05 had a stronger receiver (it sells for less than half the price of the last version) but online info shows it to be a removable swan neck style still.

To understand BMW engineering/design, and BMW marketing, it helps to realize that all the vehicles are engineered in Europe, although they are built around the world. Those local factories don't do design engineering. The marketing organizations (like BMWNA, which is misnamed since it only does the US, not Mexico or Canada) make configuration choices for what they offer their customers. For towing, they cannot offer the Euro hitches (which have a 50 mm ball, and don't have a place to attach safety chains per the North American regulations) so the marketing orgs have come up wtih local suppliers. My E53 hitch was built by Westfalia and sold through BMW dealers. It was rated 6000 lbs, although the vehicle was sold with other hitches in other countries, rated 7700 lbs unless one selected the zero cost high tow rating option, which pushed it a little higher. I believe it was a decal. It helped people avoid higher road tax based on ratings. The world ratings for the X5 were based on the German TUV standard, which included a 12% grade start both forward and reverse. That was from 1999, more than a decade before the SAE standard.

Tizeye, you posted:

Thanks for reply. After original post did a little more research. I was talking about current models, and for further research "borrowed" a VIN from dealer inventory which was required to obtain an owner's manual. Very concerned about what I found and the concept "if they want a hitch we can install it". That 7200lb rating ONLY applies to original factory installs per the owner's manual.

That rating will only apply to the factory hitch because that is the only one that the engineers who contributed to the manual know about. They won't give a rating for a third party hitch, that is up to the third party manufacturer. What you know is that the vehicle can handle it, but a lighter weight ball attachment might not be able to.

My copy of the 2019 owners manual makes no reference to a lower rating for a non factory installed BMW hitch. It does say that if you want an alternate weight rating speak to your dealer (suggesting that it is in software, not hardware). Not sure what changed in 2020.

If you get a lower rating with a dealer supplied version of the same hitch receiver, ask the dealer service department (not the sale dept) why. For the low price of the hitch option (relative to usual BMW prices) I wouldn't say you are getting any other equipment changes, except the variation that the brochure notes about programming to the rear comfort access being disabled.

BayouBiker, my BMW documentation makes no reference to the SAE towing standard. Are you suggesting it is mandatory now?

TUV launch on grade standards are generally tougher.

BMW marketing organizations outside Europe routinely spec tires that don't have autobahn speed ratings. The factory offers lower speed limiters that are solely created for those less expensive tires. The manuals and tech bulletins tell the dealers how to change the speed limiter settings if they can confirm that higher speed rated tires are subsequently installed.

BMW marketers do not care at all about tow ratings. That was proven when they installed a lower capacity hitch. Their customers few customers who do tow are are typically motivated by not wanting to see a 2" square receiver when they are not towing, not by ratings.

I think the understeer gradient question is being overstated. Consider that there are three GVWRs (for the same vehicle model), with multiple tire and wheel combination from all season to dry weather performance; that there are options for active suspension with dynamic roll control; and through all this, there is no variation in tow ratings. Doesn't make sense if the vehicle handling was somehow perceived as a limiting factor.

[jcl]

Thank you to Andrew at CanAm for his post based on real world experience.

I visited CanAm when driving cross country and was impressed with his operation.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Rationalize it in your mind anyway that works for you. You must be proud of your European heritage and vehicles, and that's fine, but it clouds your vision. The numbers don't lie. BTW I don't think you're crazy because you tow with a BMW, I just see your bias preventing you from considering more capable choices. To each their own.

You need to define capable. I don’t think there are more capable towing vehicles for these trailers than a properly set up X5 or a Cayenne. There certainly are more capable cargo carrying vehicles. If I needed or wanted to carry 1000 or 2000 lbs of cargo over and above my trailer tongue load, I would be in a truck. But I choose towing capability over cargo capability. To each their own, as you say.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by jcl

BayouBiker, my BMW documentation makes no reference to the SAE towing standard. Are you suggesting it is mandatory now?

No I'm not making that suggestion, it's a US industry standard. For the most part it carries weight in the showroom and in civil court.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

No I'm not making that suggestion, it's a US industry standard. For the most part it carries weight in the showroom and in civil court.

I would think that the limit of the weight it would carry in US civil court would be in the case that the manufacturer claimed that they used that testing standard when they didn’t in fact do so.

The introduction of the SAE tow standards had IMO the greatest impact on the ratings of those manufacturers who didn’t use any to that point, or who fudged. Looking at you, US pickup manufacturers. For others it was a non event

Consider the SAE hp measurement standards. BMW follows them, and doesn’t overstate, but doesn’t always report maximum hp. Nothing wrong in that, they saw a marketing advantage in under reporting hp at times. Helped them sell more of the expensive models that people thought had a hp advantage. Sort of like how some manufacturers publish reduced towing capabilities of some of their models.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by jcl

You need to define capable. I don’t think there are more capable towing vehicles for these trailers than a properly set up X5 or a Cayenne. There certainly are more capable cargo carrying vehicles. If I needed or wanted to carry 1000 or 2000 lbs of cargo over and above my trailer tongue load, I would be in a truck. But I choose towing capability over cargo capability. To each their own, as you say.

In the context of this thread with a 20 foot Caravel and minimal requirement for cargo volume (<72cuft), the X5i is imminently capable, a very fine choice, certainly in the top quartile. As the criteria changes to the situations bono generally advocates, the X5i become a much poorer choice. As you alluded, once towing capacity requirement exceeds 7000 and cargo volume requirement exceeds 73 cuft. The X5i falls into the group of vehicles that don't meet basic requirements, though bono myopically insists we in the US should honor European standards. Perhaps Europe should honor US standards. to be clear, I expect the X5i to be top notch for trailers under 5,500 lb GTW when properly set up with anti-sway WD.

Sometimes bono attempts to argue the X5i towing a 7700 lb trailer will by nearly every standard outperform vehicles ideally suited for 8,000-12,000 lb trailers. Quite frankly, it is laughable.

I hope this sheds light on my meaning of capability.

[bono]

I don't know what are the European standards vs. US standards. The last time I check Newton's laws worked the same in Europe and the US. If a vehicle is rated to tow X lbs in Europe, it will be capable to tow X lbs in the US (provided that the same equipment is used).

Not everyone takes the whole house to campground. Many travel light and don't need truck cargo space. For those, in most cases, a german SUV will be a better option than a truck.

I don't understand what you are suggesting that I am "attempting to argue". I tow 7,200-7,500 lbs travel trailer and my car towing handles better than a truck solo. If this is what you were trying to say, than I agree.

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

In the context of this thread with a 20 foot Caravel and minimal requirement for cargo volume (<72cuft), the X5i is imminently capable, a very fine choice, certainly in the top quartile. As the criteria changes to the situations bono generally advocates, the X5i become a much poorer choice. As you alluded, once towing capacity requirement exceeds 7000 and cargo volume requirement exceeds 73 cuft. The X5i falls into the group of vehicles that don't meet basic requirements, though bono myopically insists we in the US should honor European standards. Perhaps Europe should honor US standards. to be clear, I expect the X5i to be top notch for trailers under 5,500 lb GTW when properly set up with anti-sway WD.

Sometimes bono attempts to argue the X5i towing a 7700 lb trailer will by nearly every standard outperform vehicles ideally suited for 8,000-12,000 lb trailers. Quite frankly, it is laughable.

I hope this sheds light on my meaning of capability.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

I expect the X5i to be top notch for trailers under 5,500 lb GTW when properly set up with anti-sway WD.

Personally, I would increase that up to 7500 lbs GTW, as long as cargo expectations for what is carried in the TV can be managed. I think a 27 foot Airstream is a good match. I think a 34 tri axle would work well also, but would personally stay away from a larger/heavier AS trailer with two axles, or one with a slideout.

For the smaller and lighter X3, I would tend to go with your target of 5500 lbs GTW or so. My X3 had more hp, and the same dimensions and TV weight, as my earlier X5 (E53), but I would use that target still.

Look at withidl's posts here for his history with his E53 X5 and an AS31 (with onboard generator).

[BayouBiker]

Personal bias often inflates capability. As bono points out, you can't escape Newton's physical laws and I will add nor can you avoid Laplace's stability theorems.

As I said previously, the X5 is a top performer towing under 5,500 lbs. I'll also say it is likely very good up to 6,300 and adequate to 7,000, though in this range there are now better choices especially if you don't want to mail your gear ahead of time. Larger trailers generally come with a few extra people. Over 7,000 may work for stunt drivers and those with big egos but LaPlace would strongly argue against it. I'm sure at 7,500 in your mind it tows beautifully and I suppose it will .... until it doesn't.

[tizeye]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Personal bias often inflates capability. As bono points out, you can't escape Newton's physical laws and I will add nor can you avoid Laplace's stability theorems.

As I said previously, the X5 is a top performer towing under 5,500 lbs. I'll also say it is likely very good up to 6,300 and adequate to 7,000, though in this range there are now better choices especially if you don't want to mail your gear ahead of time. Larger trailers generally come with a few extra people. Over 7,000 may work for stunt drivers and those with big egos but LaPlace would strongly argue against it. I'm sure at 7,500 in your mind it tows beautifully and I suppose it will .... until it doesn't.

Well said. Probably the biggest advantage of the BMW and other SUV's with the 7000+ rating is buffer when you consider most SUV's - other than truck based - top out at 5000. So if pulling something in the 4500-5000 range, do you want to be topping out or have a 2000 lb buffer for the same size vehicle? Another in that 7000+ group is the Jeep Grand Cherokee which is being re-designed for 2021. Fiat is taking it off the chassis it gained 11 years ago during the Mercedes ownership to Fiat's platform used by the Stelvio. While it makes economic sense to consolidate parts, that is a 5000 lb vehicle tow rating. Will be interesting to see if the alter/re-inforce the structure to maintain the high tow rating.

[bono]

Personal bias? That sounds funny from somebody who never towed with X5, but is very precise with assessing towing capabilities of this particular vehicle (below thresholds: <=5,500 lbs, 5,500 lbs-6,300 lbs, 6,300-7,000 lbs). Impressive precision.

Only in this thread you can read ACTUAL, REAL LIFE observations from people who towed with this car. One of them is well-know industry expert.

You prefer to stick to your opinion, based on your observations made while sitting in front of your computer. This is your choice. Others may chose differently.

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

Personal bias often inflates capability. As bono points out, you can't escape Newton's physical laws and I will add nor can you avoid Laplace's stability theorems.

As I said previously, the X5 is a top performer towing under 5,500 lbs. I'll also say it is likely very good up to 6,300 and adequate to 7,000, though in this range there are now better choices especially if you don't want to mail your gear ahead of time. Larger trailers generally come with a few extra people. Over 7,000 may work for stunt drivers and those with big egos but LaPlace would strongly argue against it. I'm sure at 7,500 in your mind it tows beautifully and I suppose it will .... until it doesn't.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by bono

Personal bias? That sounds funny from somebody who never towed with X5, but is very precise with assessing towing capabilities of this particular vehicle (below thresholds: <=5,500 lbs, 5,500 lbs-6,300 lbs, 6,300-7,000 lbs). Impressive precision.

Only in this thread you can read ACTUAL, REAL LIFE observations from people who towed with this car. One of them is well-know industry expert.

bono, you don't know me and you don't know what life experiences I have towing nor the full range of vehicles I have driven. I have a coworker with an X5 and modest trailer, it's a nice setup. Your biases on the other hand are transparent from your texts. As you can tell I am physics and math geek but I realize models are not always accurate due to practical limitations, but at the same time the numbers don't lie and they are quite good at comparing one set-up with another. They are a far better predictor of outcome than anecdotal evidence from a handful of people with confirmation bias trying to promote a particular veiwpoint. I am transparent about where the numbers come from and encourage people to use them as guidance but in the end the reader's here have to make a decision that both works for them and is also safe for others on the road.

Thus far, I don't recall contradicting Andy or other declared experts even once. Perhaps you can find where I did. We may quibble about trade-off points but we are on the same page over the fundamentals.

Originally Posted by bono

You prefer to stick to your opinion, based on your observations made while sitting in front of your computer. This is your choice. Others may chose differently.

I learned long ago to be careful with opinions of unqualified self declared experts. Someone who does not understand the very detailed physics has blind spots. So do people who lack real world experience as you accused me. I use experience of myself and others to validate hypotheses and to test them, but not often to form them, it's a risky approach.

The BMW X5i is a great vehicle. All great vehicles have a sweet spot. It is not wise to shoehorn a vehicle that is great somewhere else into a slot when there are better choices. In this thread the original post asked about a set-up that is ideal for the X5i and I said so as long as sway is addressed. I am certain you agree with the assessment.

My only frustration with you is your tendency to take a great vehicle and treat it like it is end all be all.

[PKI]

No - the biggest advantage is that these vehicles provide both towing capability and effective day to day transportation utility. They can make a one pass u-turn at an intersection. They fit in shopping center and work place parking spaces. They fit in your garage and you don't need a ladder to take a seat. Pat

[GCinSC2]

Piddleplace,

Did you make the trip? All OK?

Gary

[tizeye]

Originally Posted by PKI

No - the biggest advantage is that these vehicles provide both towing capability and effective day to day transportation utility. They can make a one pass u-turn at an intersection. They fit in shopping center and work place parking spaces. They fit in your garage and you don't need a ladder to take a seat. Pat

This!

Adding to it - wife's difficulty getting into a truck (even a 1500 2wd) ruled it out. Still has vertigo issues following a sever concussion several years ago and add to it knee replacement surgery. Went into a Ram showroom and showed her how to use the running board and pull handles on the passenger side, then twist and sit. She had difficulty and was not impressed - particularly with what to do with her purse during the maneuvering. Then there is the issue of not fitting in the garage - translation, she had to back her car out next to it. Now there is a disaster waiting to happen!

That is why a SUV has to suffice, and is in effect far more capable than the truck when you can actually get in it. Also, none of the truck based SUV's that have to climb in, but the medium size with seat up to 25" off the ground and can sit over into it.

[BayouBiker]

When you have a light, small, short trailer then a light, small, short vehicle is just the ticket and there is no doubt they have many advantages over much larger vehicles.

But if you're choosing your tow vehicle based on versatility and comfort, you may want to consider choosing the tow vehicle first and then fitting an appropriate trailer to it so you end up with a combination that also performs well for the driving conditions you will experience. This will be safer for you and others. The OP has a great combination, the vehicle and trailer are a fantastic match.

Some posters on the other hand want to have their cake and eat it too. Some come here with delusions that they have succeeded and they are happy to spread the delusion. A long heavy trailer connected to an expensive well designed and built short light vehicle may well tow like a dream under many circumstances, but you can't cheat Newton's laws as one advocate admitted and eventually you may end up in a situation where the delusion ends abruptly.

There are many well meaning, knowledgeable and experienced people out there earning a living helping people correct the worst deficiencies so a too small vehicle "can" tow a larger trailer and since the physics is strongly dependent on speed and travel conditions, most drivers never get into difficult situations, so this plan mostly works. The physics that conspire against you can work for you if you always stay below critical speeds, as long as you're not creating a blocking hazard for others. Those in the business are in a difficult position because they can't make a living telling their customer that a better safer route is a different vehicle. In most situations they are simply correcting deficiencies to an otherwise good combination. In others, they know they can make significant improvements especially if they can sense the customer is cautious and is likely to avoid situations that are beyond the vehicle's capability, and so the plan works.

Food for thought, stay safe!

[bono]

Some posters here cannot comprehend that there are other good choices of vehicles to tow bigger trailers. I understand that – it is just the mindset and no everyone is capable of thinking outside the box. In the US this is the way of thinking – only trucks can tow. In Europe to the contrary, people are using small sedans to go with trailers through Alps from northern Europe to Spain, France or Italy. Sure, in general the trailers are smaller in Europe. I get it. At the same time we are talking about e.g. Honda Civic towing a trailer with the whole family for vacation on the beach 1,000 or 1,500 miles away. You do not see such things in the US. Trucks do not exist in Europe. Large trailers do exist.

An example is below – if I recall correctly, this is 36 ft trailer, 6,000 or 6,500 lbs, towed without weight distribution, with surge brakes and probably 8% tongue weight. The guy uses this trailer when skiing in Alps (there is similar trailer in the background towed by Jeep GC). If this is a stable combo (I do not have any reasons to believe otherwise), let imagine how the safety factor is increased by using a weight distribution and electric brakes.

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by bono

If this is a stable combo

The Kinematics indicate somewhere around 50 mph and higher, it's not.

Originally Posted by bono

(I do not have any reasons to believe otherwise)

And that sums up your problem.