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Old 07-27-2015, 10:45 PM   #1
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Payload: does it count 150 lb driver? Full tank? Or neither?

Read all the old threads I could find. I'm hearing many different explanations about how I should use the payload sticker on inside driver door jamb.

Does it include 150 lb driver and full tank?

Full tank of fuel but not driver?

Does it account for nothing but empty vehicle? So all human, fuel, gear, counts


Curious if anyone knows. Where would a person verify this?

Thanks.


Dan
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Old 07-28-2015, 12:11 AM   #2
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Payload capacity includes all of the previously-mentioned.
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Old 07-28-2015, 05:21 AM   #3
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In our Ram truck, payload is the difference between GVW Gross Vehicle Weight and Curb Weight. Curb weight includes fuel, fluids, and all options on the truck but no passengers or added loads. So you can see the more optional equipment you have the factory add to the truck, the lower the payload. And the more people and added loads, the less the remaining payload. Here's a guide from the Ram truck site to play with and get some definitions.

Ram Trucks - Towing Capacity Chart

Hooking a trailer will add to the payload as well, but it's not straightforward. Just dropping it on the ball may leave you within payload but overloading the rear axle or tires. A good, effective weight distribution system will redistribute much of the tongue weight (and truck's load load in the bed behind the truck's rear axle) among the truck and trailer axles.

So with a weight distribution system, you cannot just add trailer tongue weight to the truck's payload for an accurate weight, you must take it to a truck scale to know what effect the trailer tongue weight has on payload and axle and tire loads. You will also learn if your weight distribution system is adequate and adjusted properly (many are not).
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Old 07-28-2015, 06:00 AM   #4
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Thanks. That opens another can of worms

Read many times WD adds 100-150 lbs to what I count against payload. Just like adding another 100-150 lb person.

I've also read that if WD is adjusted properly it returns some portion, up to 30%, to axle on camper. So if 900 lb hitch weight camper, 300 lbs off that number is transferred back to camper axle/axles.

Obviously HUGE difference on which happens.

If this is false, my 900 lb hitch plus 150 lb WD is 1150 into my payload capacity.
If this is true, 900 lb with WD 150, puts 1/3 back, so leaves 750 in pay cap.
And that would be assuming I leave all the weight of WD in payload capacity.
Which is still a net difference of 400 lbs!!

So which is it? Huge difference. How does one verify these 'rules'?

There has to be more than contradicting opinion for newer folks like myself. Not that I don't appreciate all opinion. It's what has me asking these questions trying to learn. But I'm really surprised there is not a more unified consensus. We are after all, talking about physics. My experience with such in past has had little appetite for opinion.

Thanks for any suggestions or links to where I can learn more. About to buy a tow vehicle and first Airstream. I'm not going to this without being sure I'm safely doing so. This is all new to my wife and I, with infant and toddler. I've spent too much time looking at $60k trucks and not enough time determining if I need one.


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Old 07-28-2015, 06:16 AM   #5
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Buy the trailer first, then shop for a truck match trailer, loads in truck and trailer, and your family vehicle needs. And of course your family budget for the whole thing.

The hitch between the truck and trailer should not be underestimated, its ability to distribute the weight you need and dampen or eliminate sway, and its proper setup are just as important as truck and trailer.
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Old 07-28-2015, 06:30 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Danattherock View Post
Read all the old threads I could find. I'm hearing many different explanations about how I should use the payload sticker on inside driver door jamb.

Does it include 150 lb driver and full tank?

Full tank of fuel but not driver?

Does it account for nothing but empty vehicle? So all human, fuel, gear, counts


Curious if anyone knows. Where would a person verify this?

Thanks.


Dan
Here is what Ram's user manual says on page 646:

"Payload

The payload of a vehicle is defined as the allowable load
weight a truck can carry, including the weight of the
driver, all passengers, options and cargo
".

It seems a full tank of gas is assumed, and everything else (including the driver) counts against the payload figure.
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Old 07-28-2015, 07:13 AM   #7
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That's very helpful, thank you.

I wonder if all manufacturers do the same. I've read Toyota, for example, is complying with some new rules, that others may not be. It's what I read is reasoning for the low payload capacity ratings for the Tundra.

Not sure what's the truth, but it does seem possible that the manufacturers might tabulate things differently. If true, yet another variable in what's already in my opinion a minefield.

Anyone with another manufacturers truck or full size SUV? If time allows, what's the cliff notes from your owners manual. Would be most insightful to me and other village idiots reading here. Ha ha.


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Old 07-28-2015, 07:21 AM   #8
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my 2012 F150 deducts 150 lbs. for the driver and a full tank of gas before giving the payload number.
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Old 07-28-2015, 07:27 AM   #9
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I thought I recalled that FMVSS moved the driver to 175 lbs (since the fattening of America), but regardless, that not a huge thing...but yes, full tank of fuel and all fluids are accounted for.
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Old 07-28-2015, 07:30 AM   #10
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Dan, the only "new rules" I am aware of are for towing capacity, and most all mfrs are on the J2807 standard. Toyota was first but the others followed as new updated trucks came out. GM: 2014 for 1500s; 2015 for HDs, 2015 for Colorado; 2014 for Full Size SUVs. Crossovers and cars are a mixed bag, but are all now J2807.

And they aren't "rules". Rules are in FMVSS, relative to GVW, GAWRs, Payload, etc. J2807 is a voluntary rating "suggested" by SAE for comparison shopping purposes.

You may even find GCWR numbers for a vehicle which are higher than J2807 numbers.
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Old 07-28-2015, 07:39 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by richinny View Post
my 2012 F150 deducts 150 lbs. for the driver and a full tank of gas before giving the payload number.
My understanding is that 150# for the driver is considered for calculating GCVWR only, and for payload purposes the weight of the driver, passengers, and cargo all must be added up, and compared to the door sticker. This is according to the new F150 manual.
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Old 07-28-2015, 07:53 AM   #12
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Anything with a "R" behind it is the rating, or max established by the mfr. Max payload is the same, a rating. All the "r" numbers include driver, full of fluids and fuel. "Actual payload" and anything without and "R" behind it are measured and scaled at a point in time with a particular load, and include everything....vehicle options, aftermarket add-ons, people, dogs, cargo, etc......
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:06 AM   #13
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The payload stickers on any car/truck have the same language " The Combined Weight of Occupants and Cargo Should Never Exceed xxx KG or xxx LB"
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:09 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danattherock View Post
That's very helpful, thank you.

I wonder if all manufacturers do the same. I've read Toyota, for example, is complying with some new rules, that others may not be.

Dan
It's an SAE standard used to measure towing capacity for trucks (and cars) with a payload of less than 14,000 payload (up from 13,000), not a rule or law but a voluntary standard. It just puts everyone on an equal footing so the consumer can compare towing capacities among vehicles and not have one manufacturer exaggerate their claims.

Ford finally agreed that it would use the J2807 on new or redesigned trucks so the F-150 for 2015 is certified for J2807 but not previous models. Toyotas are certified starting in 2013. Ram and GM 1500-series pickup trucks were certified to SAE J2807 as soon as it was clear that Ford was going to follow through. Nissan is the only holdout at this time.

Standardized Tow Rating Procedure Finally Gaining Traction | Edmunds.com
All the unrealistic test weight practices of the past that led to asterisks and fine print have been eliminated. Maximum tow ratings can no longer be based on a stripped base-model truck with a 150-pound driver traveling alone. Test trucks must now be equipped with popular options found on 33 percent (or more) of the configuration being tested. The 150-pound test driver is now accompanied by a 150-pound passenger.

http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...-isnt-standard
To pass the acceleration test, the vehicle and loaded trailer have 12 seconds to reach 30 mph and a total of 30 seconds to reach 60 mph. The vehicle also must be able to accelerate from 40 mph to 60 mph in less than 18 seconds, all on level ground.
The climbing test requires the vehicle and loaded trailer to ascend 3,000 feet over an 11.4-mile stretch without dropping below 40 mph and with the air conditioning at maximum. The test is based on the Davis Dam grade, a stretch of Arizona road southeast of Las Vegas.
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:27 AM   #15
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Would think that if a couple hundred pounds is a problem, then you need a truck with more payload. That is if you are worried about it.
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Old 07-28-2015, 11:18 AM   #16
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I agree with you about that. But depending on which one of you guys I listen to, I don't need a new truck. Or if I do buy a new tow vehicle as planned, it can be a new Subrurban or Expedition EL. Then again, if I listen to another person, I need, must I should say, go buy a 3/4 ton truck.

When I take answers I have reviewed about how payload is calculated to opposite sides of the spectrum, our payload is 1700 lbs or 1300, roughly. This is very significant as the Suburban and Expedition can be bought with 1450-1565 lb payloads. That decision, SUV vs 3/4 ton truck, is why I need to know what the truth is. With wife, two small kids, and a German shepherd, an SUV works better. But if I need a 3/4 ton truck, that's what we will buy. However, the need part is overly muddy at the moment.

I still don't know if 150 lb driver, or the new info here, 150 lb passenger, is counted against payload sticker or is a 'freebie' so to speak.

Then the issue of a full tank of gas, and into that fluids elsewhere in vehicle.

Then the WD hitch, does that weight count off the payload sticker, or do most folks believe it takes 1/3 of camper hitch weight off vehicle and place that weight on camper axles.


Maybe I'm just more dense than I thought. But I'm hearing varying opinions still and have no way to decipher which is which. Thanks for the thought provoking suggestions. I think I am beginning to see why so many folks are buying more truck than they need. Or one of the reasons at any rate.


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Old 07-28-2015, 11:38 AM   #17
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Dan one easy way would be to take your daily driver, look at the door sticker to get what it says. Then drive to a CAT scale, with full gas and with just you in the car/truck get the weights. Just a guess but the CAT scales will probably be higher than the sticker. Same tends to be true for anything I have ever weighed. Marked payload vs actual can be way different.

Payloads in the marketing materials are just that, marketing. Watch the some of the truck commercials where the TV is pulling a front end loader. Just because it pulls the marketing 30,000# load doesn't mean you would want to do it in the mountains of Colorado.
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Old 07-28-2015, 11:48 AM   #18
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Dan,
Payload is stated on the door sticker and includes everything your vehicle left the factory with, and a full tank of fuel. Anything beyond that, including a driver or accessories must be deducted from payload. If a topper has been added to a truck since manufacture, for example, the weight of it should be deducted from the payload.

"Occupants and cargo..." As stated on the sticker includes the driver so, again, the weight of the driver must be deducted from the payload. Different manufacturers treat trailer towing differently. My 2006 F-150 "max towing capacity" assumed a full tank of gas and a 150# driver and no other payload. Anything added beyond that deducts from max tow.

Regarding the effect of weight distribution, you may be confusing inaccurate tongue weight specification with WD effects. With accessories, propane, clothing, food and other camping stuff it is likely that your actual tongue weight without WD will exceed the published number by up to a couple hundred pounds. Application of WD will shift that tongue weight to increase the load on the TV's front axle and the TT axles while reducing the load on the TV's rear axle. The net effect of this will likely be a REDUCTION of the apparent tongue weight as measured at the TV axles and an increase in the weight measured at the TT's axles of nominally 150#-200#.

As Gary says, the best thing is to weigh the truck and trailer combo. If you have a nearby CAT scale (google it to find them) well and good. But if you don't check with moving and storage companies. I have one very close to me. Since they are regulated their scales are checked for accuracy. I found mine to correlate well with the CAT scale when I finally did make it to one.

Hope this helps.

Al
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Old 07-28-2015, 11:51 AM   #19
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The trim level adds weight as they get fancier. A base Ford 150 looses just over 500 pounds of payload in the King Ranch model with all the options. Dodge included a 150 pound driver and full fuel/gas tank in their empty weight calculatio at each trim level.

Similar payload reductions occur as a car or SUV gets fancier.

Kids get bigger fast, so use a larger number than current weight when doing the math.

You may see that the front and rear axle capacities add up to a larger number than the gross vehicle weight. That is a fudge factor to compensate for perhaps weaker brakes or transmission towing capacity.

In the commercial world, the axle and tire ratings control the weight capacity of the vehicle.
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Old 07-28-2015, 12:02 PM   #20
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Manufacturing puts the stickers in the door, sales prints the pretty books and does the commercials. They are always in disagreement. Then there's the salesman who is either uninformed, misinformed our outright lying.

Err on the side of caution. Use the door sticker as your guideline, that will be more accurate than any sales brochure, but you'd be wise to stay within 80% of the amounts for towing and capacity.

When it states a "maximum" that means the most you can put in and still have an expectation that the vehicle will handle close to safe. It won't handle like it's empty or even moderately taxed. If you encounter an emergency situation, "maximum" may be too much for you to get out safely.
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