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Old 07-28-2015, 12:24 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Danattherock View Post
I still don't know if 150 lb driver, or the new info here, 150 lb passenger, is counted against payload sticker or is a 'freebie' so to speak.

Then the issue of a full tank of gas, and into that fluids elsewhere in vehicle.

Then the WD hitch, does that weight count off the payload sticker, or do most folks believe it takes 1/3 of camper hitch weight off vehicle and place that weight on camper axles.
A good presentation of how the "must not exceed" weight is calculated is given in NTEA - Vehicle Placard Instructions for Vehicles with a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or Less (the PDF downloads automatically).
Example calculations are given for the "Vehicle Capacity Weight" (a.k.a. the "should never exceed" value).

The weight of a full tank of fuel is included in the vehicle's curb weight and does not need to be included as cargo.
The weight of the driver is not included in the vehicle's curb weight and does need to be included as part of occupants' weight.

The weight of a weight distribution hitch system needs to be included as part of cargo.
A "conventional" WDH system typically weighs about 80-100#, and a four-bar linkage WDH such as the Hensley Arrow typically weighs about 200#.

The vertical load imposed by the trailer is equal to the trailer's loaded tongue weight minus any load transferred to the trailer's axles via the WDH. This vertical load also is considered as cargo weight.
If the WDH is adjusted to restore the TV's front axle to its unhitched weight, the amount of load transferred to the trailer's axles typically is in the range of 20-25% of the loaded tongue weight.
If the WDH is adjusted to restore 50% of the load removed from the front axle, the amount of load transferred to the trailer's axles will be around 10-15% of the loaded tongue weight.

IOW, if 100% of load is restored to the front axle, the trailer-imposed cargo weight will be around 75-80% of tongue weight.
If 50% of load is restored to the front axle, the trailer-imposed cargo weight will be around 85-90% of tongue weight.

If the loaded tongue weight is 1000# and 200# is transferred to the trailer's axles and the WDH weighs 100#, the resulting contribution to cargo weight is (1000-200)+100 = 900#.

Ron
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Old 07-28-2015, 01:10 PM   #22
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Thanks for the detailed explanation Ron!
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:12 PM   #23
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Thanks guys. That is what I needed

So payload sticker includes full tank of gas, no human, cargo, or WD hitch weight.

I've been shopping for door jamb stickers lately, rather than tow vehicles. What I've basically done is tracked down Suburbans and Expedition EL 4x4's that have the max trailering package, and not much else in the way of weight robbing options.

In the case of the Suburban, this meant LT trim, rather than LTZ. Which is fine, the Suburban LT and Expedition XLT or Limited are great the way they come, including leather.

What I have found so far, calling several states away with Autotrader identifying possible vehicles, is that Suburban max payload will be in the 1550-1600 lb range, and Expedition EL will be 1450-1500 range.

The only way I can think of to get a Suburban or Expedition EL with higher payload rating on sticker is to custom order fairly bare bones mid level trim model and do a third row delete. Many are now motorized and I read the Chevy media release regarding payload and it said (with 3rd row seat). I would have to find out how much ordering SUV without 3rd row seat would affect payload.

This is proving difficult. I have asked local dealer to find this out, along with what effect ordering 18", 20", or 22" tires/wheels would have. I'm not holding my breath on this one. The sales rep and his manager had the deer in headlights look. Ha ha.

We have decided the smallest Airstream we could be happy with is the 27' FB twin, with hitch weight 790 and dry weight 5850. Well within the Burbs 8k tow rating and Expedition's 9k rating. Wife and I weigh 550 combined, kids are 1 and 3, German shepherd is 16 weeks, but will grow to 80-90 lbs.

Anyone want to offer an opinion on minimum payload sticker rating I should consider acceptable? This assuming most, or all, gear will be carried in Airstream, with heaviest items behind axles. I'm not asking to be hand fed so much as to just confirm what I think I now know. You guys have all the experience.

Will crunch some numbers and try to decide what hypothetical WD hitch to go with, so it's weight can be factored in. Any suggestions appreciated as we have not got that far yet. Either way, I'm closer now to seeing if we can stay with an SUV, and I thank you for the assistance. And as always, your patience and candor.



Dan
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Old 07-28-2015, 02:34 PM   #24
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I certainly can not transfer 30% of my tongue weight back to the trailer axle. I have a 2500 truck. Maybe with a softer suspension on the TV you can transfer more wwight to the traile axle but I think30% is a stretch. I do know that when hitched and ready to travel my 25' trailer adds 800 lbs to the truck axles. I do not know the unhitched tongue weight.
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Old 07-28-2015, 03:12 PM   #25
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I totally get your preference for an SUV. You think it'll make sense as a daily driver. It will, until the day you're towing and you are scared spitless.

The ability to TOW your Airstream comes second to the ability to get it STOPPED - or just keep it under control going down a 6 to 7 degree grade in the mountains. I live in the east and the F-150 Ecoboost does a very good job towing my 25 FB. Decided to go to California. Donner Pass in the Rockies and later I 80 east of Salt Lake City - going downhill - Well I'm here talking about it so obviously the performance was adequate. I have a mental picture of my rig on that trip... with all the brake rotors glowing red.

I'd have given anything to have the suspension, brakes and engine brakes of my old 2500 Silverado Diesel. I'm shopping for a new to me 2500/3500 truck as I write this.

Go drive a newer quad cab 2500/3500 truck. Dog can puke in the cargo bed and your leather upholstery will be safe. A gas can won't stink up the SUV. A dirty grill or outside rug - stow with no problem. You might become a convert.
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Old 07-28-2015, 05:06 PM   #26
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The other problem is the stated trailer tongue weight in the Airstream brochure is on the light side(mine says 840 but is closer to 1200lbs in reality)By the time you fill your two propane tanks and load your trailer for travel add your gear,generator or two,gasoline,tool box,charcoal,grill,dog food,wife,kids,and yourself,not to mention your wd hitch of choice and misc.........Your 1500lbs payload is gone and then some.
20inch wheels or 18inch wheels will have the same carrying capacity when factory equipped.I run 20's because I like the way they look and I believe there is less sidewall flex.But some people run 18's.
If you are the kind of person that does not want to use a calculator for every item placed in the tow vehicle on every trip and will worry about being overloaded.
Buy a 3/4 ton.If you are going to take a ATV with you or you take a lot of stuff get a 1 ton.
Request a tow guide at the dealership,read and study do not take the salesman or the managers word for it unless they tow a travel trailer themselves.Most know nothing about it.

We need more info on your style of camping to tell you what payload that you need for your tow vehicle.
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:04 PM   #27
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I think where we get ourselves all wrapped up is by the term"payload". Payload may or may not equal the " never exceed" number on the yellow placard. Payload is a term derived from how much a commercial truck can haul for which the company gets "paid".
It is specifically: GVWR - Curb weight - 150# = payload.

This from cars.com:



"Most often, manufacturers derive payload specs by subtracting the vehicle’s curb weight and 150 pounds apiece for two occupants from the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). But they might also calculate based on a vehicle with just the driver in it, with the maximum occupant count or something in between. What’s more, the manufacturer may not even disclose which of these variables they used."

Payload is one of those words that has been used for a substitute for the "never exceed" number and it's not the same thing.

For our purposes here, we should BAN the word payload and just refer to "never Exceed" maximum capacity on the label, FGAWR, RGAWR, GVWR, and GCWR.

Payload, in it's true definition, is as antiquated as the terms half ton, 3/4 ton, and one ton trucks and is really meaningless to us.

All you can really do, without a dealer spec book (and someone who knows how to use it) is find a comparable truck to the one you want, look at the yellow sticker, and use educated guessing for the things you want to add or take off, or load (kids, wife, dog, gear etc) and calculate how much capacity you need.

Or, convince the dealer to let you take it home, load it up sans trailer and weigh it.
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:41 PM   #28
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....... "I'm hearing many different explanations about how I should use the payload sticker on inside driver door jamb."

How I use this sticker....



I load-up, hitch-up and go the the CAT scales. If I'm under the front and rear axle load ratings along with tire ratings........I go get more stuff.

Bob
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Old 07-28-2015, 08:51 PM   #29
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Bob,
Where does it say "payload" on that sticker?

But you're right, all that matters is FGAWR, RGAWR, GVWR, GCWR, Receiver weight rating from the TV mfr's perspective.

From the trailer mfr's perspective, all that matters is GVWR (trailer), Axle weight ratings, TW rating....and of course max tire weight rating for both.
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Old 07-28-2015, 09:03 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
Bob,
Where does it say "payload" on that sticker?

But you're right, all that matters is FGAWR, RGAWR, GVWR, GCWR, Receiver weight rating from the TV mfr's perspective.

From the trailer mfr's perspective, all that matters is GVWR (trailer), Axle weight ratings, TW rating....and of course max tire weight rating for both.
Rich, best two posts I've seen in a long time. Forget payload, it's a stupid outdated term; what matters are the weight ratings mentioned above, and that is what we ought to be concerned with.
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Old 07-28-2015, 09:29 PM   #31
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The GVWR on all three of my trucks was substantially less than the sum of the two axle ratings. The axle rating is just that, the carrying capacity of the axles. GVWR includes the engine and drive train, brakes, frame, etc. Will you be OK at the axle ratings? Probably, but life of some components and potentially safety may be compromised. I choose not to take that risk. To each his own.

Also, if you plan on much hilly travel, margins as high as 20% are recommended. In my case I was towing less than 5500# and should have had 7350# of towing capacity and couldn't get up a 6-mile 8% grade with a 5.4L gas engine through a 4speed auto to a 3.73 rear end. That equates to 25% margin. Would a more modern engine/drive train combo have done better? Probably. A diesel, definitely.

A friend of mine used to say "overkill is just about right". When towing, i beiieve it.

Just my experience, YMMV.

Al
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Old 07-28-2015, 09:32 PM   #32
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I agree with you about that. But depending on which one of you guys I listen to, I don't need a new truck. Or if I do buy a new tow vehicle as planned, it can be a new Subrurban or Expedition EL. Then again, if I listen to another person, I need, must I should say, go buy a 3/4 ton truck.

When I take answers I have reviewed about how payload is calculated to opposite sides of the spectrum, our payload is 1700 lbs or 1300, roughly. This is very significant as the Suburban and Expedition can be bought with 1450-1565 lb payloads. That decision, SUV vs 3/4 ton truck, is why I need to know what the truth is. With wife, two small kids, and a German shepherd, an SUV works better. But if I need a 3/4 ton truck, that's what we will buy. However, the need part is overly muddy at the moment.

I still don't know if 150 lb driver, or the new info here, 150 lb passenger, is counted against payload sticker or is a 'freebie' so to speak.

Then the issue of a full tank of gas, and into that fluids elsewhere in vehicle.

Then the WD hitch, does that weight count off the payload sticker, or do most folks believe it takes 1/3 of camper hitch weight off vehicle and place that weight on camper axles.


Maybe I'm just more dense than I thought. But I'm hearing varying opinions still and have no way to decipher which is which. Thanks for the thought provoking suggestions. I think I am beginning to see why so many folks are buying more truck than they need. Or one of the reasons at any rate.


Dan
Confusing huh?

One other thing I might throw into the mix that you may not have thought a lot about. If there is a likelihood that you will carry one or more generators or gas cans, you probably don't want them in the cabin of an SUV with the passengers. The smell can be overpowering.

I wanted to get an SUV in the worst way as I wanted the gas mileage improvements when not towing. Fortunately, I had a couple of folks experienced with some heavy towing and they (and my dealer) convinced me that the truck was the better answer. The dealer told some stories of brand new AS units overturned and totalled with potential injury to the occupants of the tow vehicle especially for SUVs with short wheel bases (read this as full sized Ford Bronco for example).

Anyway, I have a 2004 22 foot Safari with a curb weight around 3200 with a max trailer weight of around 4500 (actual numbers availabe at Colonial Airstream archive) so if I can keep the tongue weight in place, I have some decent payload capacity there. With a properly set up Equilizer WD hitch I avoid some individual axle problems with the transfer of weight to front TV axle and trailer axles. And with all of the good things I had heard of from Toyota owners, I went with the Tundra. I put two Honda 2K generators in the bed of the truck (covered by a Leer Tonneau). I can easily handle them one at a time and synchronize them with the optional cable to give me enough power to do my A/C and virtually anything else I want (I didn't get and don't want a microwave but have a propane oven and three burner and do have a toaster and one cup Keurig). I usually carry two 6 gallon metal gas cans and a 6 gallon marine gas can that I use to feed both generators with special caps using the OMC marine connectors. Can run days in Boondock mode on that.

The only drawback to the Tundra is its 26.2 gallon fuel tank (an aftermarket tank will about double that for $1195 which I presume is without installation). I have to plan my route and my fuel stops, although I am not sure that is a bad thing. 12 gallons that I can use to top off the generator tank if Boondocking and effectively 18 gallons in the 2-6 gallon metal gas cans racheted to the Tundra bed rail system along with a 6 gallon marine tank should give me plenty of backup if I find my planned gas stop has closed its doors...effectively 44 gallons if I need it.

Only thing I have tried to do is to tow with empty water tanks as much as possible. If I can fill the potable water tank near my destination, I can save significant payload.

Last year I took the rig to Okie-Tex Star Party (semi boondocking) and stayed 10 days leaving with only 1/8 of a black tank full and 1/8 of a grey tank full. I kept getting low readings on my potable tank and kept trying to feed the main tank from a 6 gallon water jug I wheeled from the bunkhouse, but I could never put more than 3 gallons in. I finally decided I had some significant problems with the sensors and had 24 gallons or better all of the time.


Just some added thought. Don't try to convince yourself your SUV will do it and find yourself losing money on a trade-in the next year. People were very happy with the 3/4 ton Suburban, but I don't know if that is still available.

Another Dan.
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Old 07-28-2015, 09:48 PM   #33
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Back to my previous post, go shopping. Take each of your choices to a CAT scale or other nearby truck scale that can weigh each axle. Find dealers that are close to a scale. At CAT the first trip will cost you $10-11. Each additional weigh within 24 hours costs $2. Hopefully a local dealer will have something that is close to your final wish list. Compare the results from the scales to the stickers. Be sitting down when you do the comparison.

Don't think that an SUV will get any better gas mileage than the current crop of trucks. Overall size of a standard bed Chevy/GM is the same length as a Suburban. And the additional interior of the Suburban typically causes it to weigh more than the equivalent pickup and reduces the available weight available for all cargo.

And the thought of a couple of Honda 2000's sitting in the back of an SUV cooking in the sun with the resulting gas expansion and fumes makes me sick. Bad enough in the back of the Sierra when the cover is in place.
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Old 07-29-2015, 04:18 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dznf0g View Post
Bob,
Where does it say "payload" on that sticker?

But you're right, all that matters is FGAWR, RGAWR, GVWR, GCWR, Receiver weight rating from the TV mfr's perspective.

From the trailer mfr's perspective, all that matters is GVWR (trailer), Axle weight ratings, TW rating....and of course max tire weight rating for both.

Rich,

A "this sticker" is different from a payload sticker.

Don't ever recall seeing 'payload', photo please, so I know what I'm for.

Bob
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Old 07-29-2015, 06:20 AM   #35
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Bob,
The labeling changed since your production. The tire information is now (GM) on a separate silver/black sticker. I believe ALL mfrs are required to use the same yellow "GVW sticker"

That yellow sticker states a "never exceed occupants and cargo" number. That is an "all in" number after all FACTORY ordered options are considered. It also includes all factory ordered, but dealer installed, options. Actually makes things much simpler, except we keep holding onto old ideas and definitions.

From this sticker: GVWR - "never exceed number" = curb weight as produced

Load all your stuff, including the fuzzy dice and weigh. your weight - curb weight = your added accessories and cargo load and family (inc. doggie)

You can perform the weight thing by loading up your current vehicle with everybody and everything, weight it. Go home and unload your camping people and gear, go back and weigh again. subtract weight 2 from weight 1. Go shopping with that number and compare yellow stickers' "Never exceed number".
(of course, you'll need to know the total receiver weight of your AS and hitch setup and account for that as well.)
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Old 07-29-2015, 07:23 AM   #36
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Ahhhh....I suspected as much.

I do recall seeing 'yellow' stickers on the new stuff before retiring in '09.....I think.

Bob
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Old 07-29-2015, 08:37 AM   #37
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Here's my stickers. 2015 GMC Sierra Denali Duramax.

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ID:	244168

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Old 07-29-2015, 11:40 AM   #38
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Thanks guys and gals. Would be lying if I said I fully understood how payload is determined. Varying opinions of course here, but I do see a pattern.

We have decided to skip the SUV, as much as we would like one. We have seen some nice 3/4-1 ton trucks lately, GMC 2500 Denali and Ford F-350 my favorites.

But today the wife and I went out of town to Fayetteville,NC and test drove a Dodge Mega cab 3500 with Cummings 6.7. Very impressed. Backseat will hold two kids with plenty of center floorboard for german shepherd. This is the only truck we have seen that will allow dog in cab. Other trucks will require a cap on back.

We then drove half hour to another Dodge dealer that had a Mega Cab 2500 with Hemi 6.4. We liked the way both drove. Very impressive and payload was 4108 on the 3500!

What surprised us, both trucks MSRP was $55k. Looks like lots more truck for the money than the others we had seen. Salesman said we could likely buy for $50k out the door if we wanted to come inside. It was tempting.


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Old 07-29-2015, 04:54 PM   #39
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Friend has the Megacab 2500 with the Ram Storage box system. Nice setup, keeps things handy and your right about the room inside. Very nice setup. Pulls his Classic with ease.
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Old 07-29-2015, 06:16 PM   #40
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Doesn't the Mega Cab only have a 5 1/2' bed. Not much storage on it unless you get a camper shell so the storage box system won't work. Dan, what was the payload sticker values on those vehicles?

Kelvin
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