Payload and Towing Regulations - Enforcement

[pwlldvd]

Originally Posted by Dennis C

+1

Most of us have probably driven by an accident site where an RV and tow vehicle have spilled their contents all over the ditch and highway. I can’t imagine a way to determine what was on board, was stuff full or empty, where was it placed, did it soak up water in the ditch/mud/wet grass etc. did it burst and spill on the side of the road, or was it there before the accident even happened?

Forget the liability, what about your own safety? You do not want to tow with a vehicle that is overloaded! The chance of something happening is increased when overloaded. Drop the weight so you are well within the limits, or get a bigger tow vehicle.

[Atwebs]

We drove past an Airstream lying on it's roof about 3' tall with the tow vehicle on it's side and stuff strewn about the highway last summer. Luckily the folks weren't injured (save the huge cost of their accident!) and everyone else missed hitting them. The couple who had the accident explained their set up was both over weight and and poorly loaded and they were just lucky to walk away. An ill advised lane change and everything went crazy. I'd worry less about citations and possible lawsuits than I would the safety of my family!

[JFScheck]

Question is, will your insurance company cover you if found overweight?

The greater the claim (lord forbid “a death”) - the more aggressive the pressure to investigate.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by JFScheck

Question is, will your insurance company cover you if found overweight?

The greater the claim (lord forbid “a death”) - the more aggressive the pressure to investigate.

What would be their reason to deny coverage? It isn’t like a law was broken. Do they routinely deny claims when laws are broken, eg speeding, tailgating, unsafe driving?

If your insurance company is that shady, might be time to find a new one.

Of course, they could increase your premiums after paying the claim.

[JonDNC]

Originally Posted by jcl

What would be their reason to deny coverage? It isn’t like a law was broken. Do they routinely deny claims when laws are broken, eg speeding, tailgating, unsafe driving?



If your insurance company is that shady, might be time to find a new one.



Of course, they could increase your premiums after paying the claim.

Negligence

If you knowingly are overcapacity then you are legally negligent. All insurance policy’s have wording that nullifies coverage if negligent.

[LNBright]

Or, they’ll pay the claim - once - then drop you and not cover you again.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by JonDNC

Negligence

If you knowingly are overcapacity then you are legally negligent. All insurance policy’s have wording that nullifies coverage if negligent.

We'll need you to clarify gross negligence.

I suggest that violating a speed limit, which is breaking a law, is more likely to be considered negligent than exceeding a tow rating. One is illegal. The other isn't. So, does every vehicle crash involving speed result in insurance being nullified?

[JonDNC]

Originally Posted by jcl

We'll need you to clarify gross negligence.

I suggest that violating a speed limit, which is breaking a law, is more likely to be considered negligent than exceeding a tow rating. One is illegal. The other isn't. So, does every vehicle crash involving speed result in insurance being nullified?

Clearly you are an attorney so you define I just stated what’s in most policy’s you don’t feel it neglect do what you want. I do I’ll do what I want I’m not an internet attorney.

Just like speeding 5 over won’t get you thrown in jail most places but 30 over will and can have other penalties, 50 over is another level.

[BayouBiker]

Speed limits have the purpose of creating uniform and orderly traffic patterns so that the set of all vehicles using the road are not in conflict. Slightly exceeding the limit is a moving violation. Greatly exceeding the speed limit is "negligent driving", faster still is "reckless driving".

Unknowingly overloading a towing combination is a form of legal careless disregard for self and others. Knowingly overloading or incorrectly loading to the point of obvious safety issue is negligence or recklessness depending on the degree.

[lookingin]

If a cop cites you in an accident you are very likely liable. Speeding, following too close in an accident they usually throw one or more of those in so liability in an accident is common. And once someone is liable then they can be held accountable for damages of some kind. but no, cops aren't going to get out any weight scales to ask drivers and passengers to start stepping up onto the scale. I also doubt that they would check the vehicles for any third party mods on any of the rigs. Don't know why this argument keeps coming up.

[jcl]

The original poster lives in Manitoba.

Here are a few details that clarify liability and so on in Manitoba.

1) From the Manitoba Highway Traffic Act, Manitoba has a reverse onus clause.

Where loss or damage is sustained by any person by reason of a motor vehicle upon a highway the onus of proof that the loss or damage did not arise entirely or solely through the negligence or improper conduct of the owner or driver is upon the owner or driver.

So, if you crash, you are presumed to be liable. Negligent, if you like. Prove otherwise. You don't need to be concerned about being over a tow rating if you crash, because it is already your fault. That doesn't mean that insurance doesn't pay, it means that it goes against your safe driving record, not that of the other driver.

2) Manitoba has a public insurance company. Insurance is mandatory. There is no competition. They will continue to insure you if you have a claim, but your rates are likely to increase. You can't be "cancelled" But they can increase your premiums because of your demonstration of being in a higher risk category.

3) The Manitoba towing and vehicle loading laws explicitly mention tire ratings and axle ratings. They don't go into GVWR, let alone tow ratings, unless you go to the commercial vehicle section. There, they focus on actual gross weights, and if you exceed the highway maximum load rating (not the vehicle load rating) you can be stopped, fined, etc. Those are the "police" mentioned by a previous poster. If you aren't towing D10 tractors and the like on low bed trailers during spring breakup, it isn't likely to be an issue.

[new2trailer]

i don't know anything about Canadian law enforcement, however if they are similar to USA, it is far more likely you will receive a citation for going too fast for the conditions.

That pretty much covers the same territory as being overweight. Again in the USA it is not unusual to see trucks grossly overloaded with construction materials and nobody thinks a thing about it.

If you are in a wreck, the 200 you are worrying about is not likely to be the cause, either in Canada or the USA.

My advice is to head to the wilderness and stop worrying about nothing.

Mike

[pscorrigan]

When you have knowledge that your combined payload and trailer weight exceeds maximum that the vehicle is rated for you have what is known as "conscious disregard for the rights and safety of others. This amounts to Reckless Operation under Ohio traffic statutes, and is punishable by 90 days in jail, (check statute to be certain) The risk that you take exposes your family and others to possible fatal accidents. This could yield a law suit that includes a demand for punitive damages for such conduct. Punitive damages are not covered under your automobile insurance. I have defended a number of lawsuits in which the driver disregarded safety rules, and the Plaintiff lawyers would drool at a set of facts where the driver disregards and violates safety statutes and regulations. The post-accident investigation would involved experts who would download your computer module to check your driver conduct and action and they could weigh everything. So, better safe than sorry.

[CanyonMan]

My sentiments exactly. Let's go a bit further. Civil trials only require a preponderance of the evidence, not the criminal beyond a reasonable doubt standard. The definition is "Preponderance of the evidence is one type of evidentiary standard used in a burden of proof analysis. Under the preponderance standard, the burden of proof is met when the party with the burden convinces the fact finder that there is a greater than 50% chance that the claim is true." I have never heard of any court cases where an RV owner has been successfully sued under the less stringent burden of proof.
The reason I try to stay within in limits is that I would have a hard time living with myself if I caused a serious injury or death. A lawsuit would be the least of my worries. Let's also remember that we are not subject to the commercial regulations, so how would the police ever know what our weight or cargo capacity actually is?

Originally Posted by n2916s

We have all read countless threads about the “lawyers will get you if...”

Yet in the 15 plus years I have been on this forum, I have never seen anyone post an actual case where exceeding a towing limitation led to an adverse insurance or court decision.

In the OP’s scenario, a lawyer, after the fact, would have to have post accident weights for the trailer, TV, passengers and the fluid levels in the gas, propane, water and waste tanks. Then he would need the “yellow decal” payload sticker number and determine what else the TV was carrying.

Prove all that “beyond a reasonable doubt” coupled with every jury’s bias against insurance companies and I suspect that maybe that is why we never hear of any actual cases...

[socialgirl]

I am socialgirls husband. I drive a Ram1500 towing a 25ft safari. I also travel with 250# over weight on the back axle. (because of the aux 50gal tank installed in the bed) This goes away after the fuel is gone. That being said, I am a retired police officer of 29 years in the a metro Atlanta area. I also was a Mechanical engineer from Ga. tech, therefore was assigned to investigate fatality accidents. I was an engineer for Gulf oil for eight years and had that experience. Besides that I was sent to school by DOT to be a truck inspector. Reason I was informing you this it will give you my experience in such matters. Not all cops are the same. In Georgia I did have jurisdiction to make cases on over weight and mechanical deficient vehicles. I would never have made a issue or issue a citation for such a technicality unless a shifted load caused the accident. The extra weight on the axles would be a problem if it exceeded the tire payloads and caused a blowout. With all that being said, I would not foresee any problem with you getting cited for such a technicality.

[jwpaquette]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

By the police, not much, no DOT infractions.
Now the after the fact solicitors is another concern altogether.

Bob
🇺🇸

Big question. It depends on so many things. The size of the liability / accident, your net worth / how much blood can they get from you... the list goes on. High net worth individuals tend to have high value liability policies. If it is a high dollar loss / claim, and you have either insurance or net worth, I would expect they will crawl under nearly every crack and crevice to either defend you or go one the offense against you. My motto, stay within the limits and the liability insurance lawyers will take care of the rest and I have little to worry about.

[jcl]

This is all fine, but we aren’t seeing distinctions made about what the definition of overweight is.

It is obvious that exceeding manufacturer tire and axle weight ratings can constitute overloading for jurisdictions that regulate those items for non commercial transport. The same can’t be said of exceeding manufacturer’s towing guidance unless that is a regulated item.

[SnowWanderer]

Originally Posted by Danishgod

Question to the Towing Community;

Hypothetical situation - your perspective is needed.

I get into an accident and it is determined by the police that i am exceeding the payload capabilities of the truck albeit by 200 lbs. but under the towing limits. Will I:

- get a warning that I am driving illegally, if in fact this an illegal act?
- get a fine?
- go to jail and any of the above?
- get sued by the other party to the accident?

What do you think will happen?

Thanks

Having worked many fatal traffic crashes, there are too many variables and elements that must be considered and investigated, to give you a simple answer here. I am a retired cop, detective and crime scene investigator.

Our department, as do many others, will have vehicles, occupants and cargo weighed, either on scene or towed to certified scales ... whether it is a small four wheeler, a trailer or tractor.

It's likely you will not be arrested at the scene unless you are intoxicated by alcohol and/or drugs or other factors are involved. If you do not have a valid driver licence, you might be arrested, especially if you are an out of State driver. Not having valid insurance could also result in an arrest.

In you are an uninjured driver involved in a fatal crash, you likely will be transported to a facility to provide a breath and/or blood sample, but barring other reasons, (warrants, contraband, no license, intoxication), you will either be brought back to the scene, released at the hospital / police facility or dropped off at a nearby location of your choosing.

Our department issued tickets, if warranted, only after a thorough investigation had been completed... which often required several weeks or more.

For example, I worked one fatal crash where my report, alone, was a couple hundred pages. The vehicles were impounded, thoroughly searched and weighed. The contents of the vehicle strewed about at the crash scene were collected and placed in the vehicle before weighing. Occupant weights were added to the vehicle weight and a thorough investigation of the vehicles condition, brakes, etc, was undertaken by certified mechanics. Coupled with the reports of all the other officers, investigators, officials on scene and other experts, EMS personnel, it takes a substantial amount of time to compile the evidence, write the reports, wait for medical reports, autopsies and other experts reports, have command review and accept the officers reports or return them to the officers for clarifications or error corrections, forward everything on to the prosecutor.... who reads the reports and decides to charge, not charge or return report for additional investigation.

If a warrant is issued, the local jurisdiction where the arrestee resides is notified and a pick up is requested.

It is impossible for me to relay here everything that occurs after a fatal crash, but I hope this helps.

[redthies]

Originally Posted by jcl

What would be their reason to deny coverage? It isn’t like a law was broken. Do they routinely deny claims when laws are broken, eg speeding, tailgating, unsafe driving?

If your insurance company is that shady, might be time to find a new one.

Of course, they could increase your premiums after paying the claim.

I asked ICBC directly about being overweight and involved in an accident when my truck camper put me over my GVW. They stated “you may be deemed “at fault”, but you WILL be covered.

I towed my 29’ Ambassador from Whiterock in to Richmond yesterday with our 2020 Tacoma. I would not normally even consider this, but it was getting a provincial inspection and my 3500 was having brake light issues (which I fixed and used it to tow the trailer home). The stated tow rating for our model of Tacoma is 6500 lbs, and I scaled the trailer at 6300 lbs. Using a WD hitch, I was technically still legal, but I would NOT care to tow that trailer with that truck very far. Also, 200 lbs over on a one ton is a very different thing than being 200 lbs over on a Tacoma. What type of vehicle is the OP towing with?

All that said, I would never knowingly and regularly tow any load that is over your vehicles limit. It’s just not a smart practice. Yesterday’s trip was freeway, sunny, dry pavement, no wind, no hills. Add any other challenges to that equation like rain, snow, wind, or a twisty mountain road and it’s a recipe for trouble.

[rewillia]

Originally Posted by Danishgod

Question to the Towing Community;

Hypothetical situation - your perspective is needed.

I get into an accident and it is determined by the police that i am exceeding the payload capabilities of the truck albeit by 200 lbs. but under the towing limits. Will I:

- get a warning that I am driving illegally, if in fact this an illegal act?
- get a fine?
- go to jail and any of the above?
- get sued by the other party to the accident?

What do you think will happen?

Thanks

My thinking is as follows:

1) you are a private citizen operating a privately owned vehicle and trailer otherwise not involved in any form of commercial activity or interstate commerce.

2) considering 1) above, it is unlikely that you would be cited for a weight violation (unless the result of such was determined to be the root cause of such incident/accident), i.e. something "fell off" that normally would not have, and was observed by a traffic enforcement officer as being a hazard, etc.

3) considering 2) above, you could be issued a citation (cited) for such hazard if in the mind of the enforcement officer you are thus deemed to have or be posing a threat to public safety due to any such condition or circumstance.

4) Now, "if "attorneys (of any of the other parties involved in such accident or incident) were to become involved and learn of you being cited in part with the accident/incident investigation, such condition could possibly result in litigation against you but that to me is unlikely to occur.

5) In all such cases, good rationale to carry an "umbrella" policy and thus better protect yourself.