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08-18-2014, 01:07 PM
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#21
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4 Rivet Member
Vintage Kin Owner
Superior
, Colorado
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 442
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I have a 2012 Armada, so I can help a bit.
Make sure the Nissan has the tow button on the center console, then it has the tow package with trans cooler.
I shall heartily disagree with the above poster that says the nissan will get 7-9. I tow a non-AS that is distinctly non-aerodynamic, and my nissan averages about 10.3 mpg. And I'm towing around CO, so there's the hills....
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08-18-2014, 01:32 PM
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#22
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Rivet Master
Vintage Kin Owner
N/A
, N/A
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoldAdventure
Yes, this is a contentious issue (with long history), probably because most of us have spent a pretty penny on our tow vehicles (as well as our trailers) and want everyone to agree that we made the perfect choice. Human nature is like that.
Do Diesel Trucks Save You Money? Not Always...
Diesel vehicles get remarkable fuel economy, but it’s sometimes not enough to make them a better value overall than their gas counterparts.
The main reason is the higher pricetag: on average a diesel is $5,045 more than a gas-powered version of the same model, according to Vincentric LLC, a research firm in Bingham Farms, Mich.
Beyond the purchase amount, diesels also end up costing a little extra to own and maintain.
An additional noteworthy point is that on a percentage basis, diesels have lower depreciation, but because they cost more to purchase, their total dollars of depreciation are higher.
In a detailed analysis comparing diesel and gas versions of the same models, Vincentric calculated the cost of ownership over five years, assuming 15,000 miles of driving annually. The company found that, in many cases, particularly with trucks and vans, the gas-powered model would end up costing owners less in the long run, despite using more fuel.
The advantage of those infrequent fill-ups might be deceptive. Buyers who choose a diesel vehicle could assume the savings on fuel will more than compensate for the other extra expenses.
But higher purchase prices and other expenses over time can outweigh the savings diesels deliver at the pump; in general, owning a diesel for five years ends up costing an average of $751 more than owning the same vehicle with a gasoline engine, according to Vincentric’s calculations in its alternative fuel analysis.
But there are enough exceptions to keep anyone who wants to buy a diesel happy.
Additional Sources:
http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmf...ort_dd2017.pdf
Cost of Ownership Study: 12 Diesels Beat Gas Counterparts - HybridCars.com
http://www.constructionfleets.com/fc...ifecycle-2.pdf
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University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute disagrees with Vincentric LLC's findings
http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmf...ort_dd2017.pdf
Diesel vehicles save owners thousands | University of Michigan News
"The estimates of savings for three and five years of ownership vary from a low of $67 in three years to a high of $15,619 in five years, but most of the savings are in the $2,000-to-$6,000 range, which also include the extra cost that is usually added to the diesel version of a vehicle,"
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08-18-2014, 01:47 PM
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#23
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Rivet Master
Vintage Kin Owner
Lin
, Ne
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,430
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Owning a diesel is not what it used to be.
Cheap fuel
Reliability
Fuel mileage
Low maintance
__________________
The higher your expectations the fewer your options.
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08-18-2014, 02:58 PM
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#24
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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You boiled it down to the basics quite well Rcarl.
In a nutshell,,, you nailed it.
The manufacturers were so effective at cleaning up diesels that the government now requires too much of the manufacturers to the point that delivering a reliable efficient product has become too complex to accomplish.
If not for these unrealistic expectations the American diesel would be in the midst of its golden age. As it is now it was spoiled.
This is reality, accept it or deny it, reality still is.
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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08-18-2014, 03:22 PM
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#25
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Rivet Master
2016 28' Flying Cloud
Brandenburg
, Kentucky
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 898
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Just my 2 cents worth, but I'd be more inclined to purchase a pre-owned diesel thats been used to tow than any vehicle with a gas engine thats been used to tow. Towing with any gas engine, even if optioned out with trailer/two package, will take a severe beating compared to a diesel. Myself, my daily driver is an Audi A3 TDI and on the highway I can get around 45 MPH, but get out on a fairly flat highway and I've gotten just a touch over 50 MPH. I have a 2006 Chevy 2500 HD Duramax/Allison and it's used 90% of the time to tow our AS and I get close to 16 MPH hitched up and 18/19 un-hitched. Love the torque of a diesel. Here in Kentucky, theres not much flat land, but no big high mountains like out west. Good luck with your decision.
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08-18-2014, 03:35 PM
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#26
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Full Time Adventurer
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic
, USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunami
Towing with any gas engine, even if optioned out with trailer/two package, will take a severe beating compared to a diesel.
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What evidence/research supports this? Or is this just your opinion on what's actually happening inside the engine?
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
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08-18-2014, 03:40 PM
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#27
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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Nissan Titan 5.6L vs Ford F250 diesel
I routinely get 200K plus miles out of my gas engine equipped one tons used for heavy towing in my business, without major breakdowns. Not so with our Ford and Chevy diesels .
I am just expressing my real world observations, unbiased.
I would LOVE to be able to brag about how the money I spent on these diesels was well spent. I cant.
I have a grudge against Dodge ever since they failed to warrantee a Gertag transmission behind the 1990 Dodge I bought new. Since then I kept my word to the service rep and never bought another, but my dad has bought several.
If I were to ever buy another diesel pickup truck it would be a Ram. They are te most reliable in heavy towing by far.
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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08-18-2014, 04:19 PM
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#28
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4 Rivet Member
Durango
, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Morgan
I routinely get 200K plus miles out of my gas engine equipped one tons used for heavy towing in my business, without major breakdowns. Not so with our Ford and Chevy diesels .
I am just expressing my real world observations, unbiased.
I would LOVE to be able to brag about how the money I spent on these diesels was well spent. I cant.
I have a grudge against Dodge ever since they failed to warrantee a Gertag transmission behind the 1990 Dodge I bought new. Since then I kept my word to the service rep and never bought another, but my dad has bought several.
If I were to ever buy another diesel pickup truck it would be a Ram. They are te most reliable in heavy towing by far.
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That's funny. It has been just the opposite in my business.
The Rams are pieces of c#$p that will nickel and dime you to death with transmission, differential, brakes, various truck problems, no real engine problems. Where as my Fords have been work horses with practically no problems what-so-ever. Ford makes a much better heavy duty truck in my opinion.
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08-18-2014, 04:33 PM
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#29
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Full Time Adventurer
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic
, USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
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Your glasses may be rose colored.
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
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08-18-2014, 05:05 PM
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#30
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Rivet Master
2016 28' Flying Cloud
Brandenburg
, Kentucky
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 898
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Answer
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoldAdventure
What evidence/research supports this? Or is this just your opinion on what's actually happening inside the engine?
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Close friend of mine, business owner, had a Chevy 3/4 ton dually gas engine pickup that he used for weekly round trips from just North of Indianapolis to Detroit to deliver molds and dies for stamping and injection, sometimes pulling a trailer when the load was to large for the bed. He wore the engine out. He changed the engine to diesel and got better gas mileage and drove that truck for several more years before selling it. Had he not made the change to diesel, he would had to purchase a new vehicle.
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08-18-2014, 05:29 PM
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#31
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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In my experience,,, just mine,,, as a rule,,, when I have worn out the gas engines in my Chevys and Fords, the bodies and interiors are pretty well worn.
I have priced the notion of changing my dads 04 6.0 Ford to a Cummins, but the swap will cost a minimum of 20K, so the idea is tabled at the moment. Too bad, the truck itself is in great shape for a ten year old truck with less than 50K on the odometer.
Ford could never make it run right for more than a few weeks at a time, and neither can I.
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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08-18-2014, 05:33 PM
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#32
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Full Time Adventurer
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic
, USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunami
Close friend of mine, business owner, had a Chevy 3/4 ton dually gas engine pickup that he used for weekly round trips from just North of Indianapolis to Detroit to deliver molds and dies for stamping and injection, sometimes pulling a trailer when the load was to large for the bed. He wore the engine out. He changed the engine to diesel and got better gas mileage and drove that truck for several more years before selling it. Had he not made the change to diesel, he would had to purchase a new vehicle.
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https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal
Anecdotal at best. That's not proof that gas engines wear more while towing.
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
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08-18-2014, 07:27 PM
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#33
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4 Rivet Member
2005 28' Safari
formerly of Tustin, Huntington Beach, Dana Point, and Laguna Beach
, California
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 398
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Wow...quite a spectrum of experience and data. I'm sure this is an old debate but I was just trying to cut to the chase regarding this Titan that is sitting in a lot a few miles away and posted the question. I was hoping to get a clear cut verdict but both camps make good arguments. I will be exploring a lot of the western states on both sides of the Rockies and between them and the Cascades but do not need to speed up the hills. With my budget, I'll have to settle for an older truck if I go diesel but I'll feel safer heading up grades. On the flip side, the lower price and initial miles on the gas trucks sure are tempting. I'm a total newbie when it comes to RVing and towing, and so I'm learning the choice of the right AS was easy compared to the right TV. Darn, right now it's the second quarter and the score is tied.
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08-18-2014, 07:49 PM
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#34
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Rivet Master
Vintage Kin Owner
Lin
, Ne
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVDreamer
That's funny. It has been just the opposite in my business.
The Rams are pieces of c#$p that will nickel and dime you to death with transmission, differential, brakes, various truck problems, no real engine problems. Where as my Fords have been work horses with practically no problems what-so-ever. Ford makes a much better heavy duty truck in my opinion.
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In Dodge's defense, they have improved in quality since about 2004.
__________________
The higher your expectations the fewer your options.
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08-18-2014, 07:59 PM
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#35
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Full Time Adventurer
2007 27' International CCD FB
Nomadic
, USA
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westcoastas
Wow...quite a spectrum of experience and data. I'm sure this is an old debate but I was just trying to cut to the chase regarding this Titan that is sitting in a lot a few miles away and posted the question. I was hoping to get a clear cut verdict but both camps make good arguments. I will be exploring a lot of the western states on both sides of the Rockies and between them and the Cascades. With my budget, I'll have to settle for an older truck if I go diesel but I'll feel safer heading up grades. On the flip side, the lower price and initial miles on the gas trucks sure are tempting. I'm a total newbie when it comes to RVing and towing, and so I'm learning the choice of the right AS was easy compared to the right TV. Darn, right now it's the second quarter and the score is tied.
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So... not to keep hi-jacking your thread here. Like you, we have a love affair with the west. I considered the Dodge Ecodiesel carefully. Heck Dodge is offering 0% financing. I'm not huge on debt, but seriously, 0%, why not leverage some debt?
Anyhow... back on track here. One point to consider, out west and up towards the North West in some areas Diesel does actually become harder to find if you venture further away from civilization and major interstate truck routes. It also can become more expensive in some areas as opposed to others. This gets kind of glanced over because the trend in the RV/Trailing community is older folks who tend to travel closer to civilization.
This gets discussed quite a bit over on the expo forums as overlanders like to discuss the merits of diesel vs gas. And in the US availability becomes a talking point there. I got to see this up close over some of my past travels, I built an Adventure Mobile that pulls an offroad trailer and traveled all over the West, it suited my wife and dog before we had kids. But I had to bring extra gas tanks and there where some hairy places in Utah where we exited a park and just barely made it to a gas station.
Now an upside is that with Diesels you can get overflow tanks that sit in the bed if it becomes a real concern and usually you're getting better MPG anyways. Gassers aren't allowed gravity tanks.
I just wanted to play devils advocate and talk about that point. Plus post pictures of my other hobby.
I think you've been loaded with more than enough info to make a decision on your own.
__________________
Family of 5 exploring the USA with a Ram Power Wagon & Airstream in tow.
OUR BLOG | INSTAGRAM
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08-03-2016, 01:25 PM
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#36
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2 Rivet Member
2016 27' Flying Cloud
Quebec
, Quebec
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 63
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All half ton trucks are capable of towing any AS of less than 31 feet. The difference is the load you put in the truck. This is what is important. If you exceede the GVWR the truck will be much more expensive to drive. A friend of mine is carrying a 2000 pounds truck camper and trailer an 18 foot fishing boat with a F150 equiped with the turbo gas engine and it is costing him 3000 to 4000$ a year to maintain since the warranty is over. The two turbo were replaced on the warranty and one is due for replacement again.
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08-03-2016, 04:51 PM
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#37
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4 Rivet Member
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 334
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I can quote a lot of horror stories about diesels that have cost their owners a lot more than that.
I've owned a diesel since I bought it new in 1996, and it's still going strong. However, I wouldn't buy a new diesel today, with its diesel particulate filter, exhaust gas recirculaton, urea fluid injection and all other related environmental necessities. They're just too complicated to have an economic advantage over the gasoline option today.
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08-03-2016, 05:14 PM
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#38
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2 Rivet Member
2016 19' Flying Cloud
Morrow
, Ohio
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 40
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I've owned a Nissan Titan , same one . Great for 50k then crumbled. Literally . Leaf spring shackle up through the bed of truck . skid plate fell off. - . Front Left wheel bearing. Whole hub assembly was replaced. - ball joint -Transfer case replaced. - front differential replaced. front right hub assembly replaced. - . Last straw ??? front axle popped out of front differential and dealer said it was because I have the habit of backing into a parking space and turn wheels too sharp ( not in 4WD ) oh and Nissan did nothing for me other than Bill for repair.
Other than that truck I have had a gas Ford f250 since I was 20 . So I can't speak for diesel and kinda maybe sorta wish I had got one this time ......Present one is a 2015 . First truck @18 was a ranger . Been happy with them . Enough said.
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08-03-2016, 05:27 PM
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#39
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Rivet Master
1988 25' Excella
1987 32' Excella
Knoxville
, Tennessee
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,103
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Just so I wil know, what is the payload (the sitcker on the door number) of a Nissan diesel truck?
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08-03-2016, 05:45 PM
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#40
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2 Rivet Member
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 24
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Why I prefer 1/2 ton gasser: Smoother ride, better gas mileage when empty ( which is about 90% of the time ) Insurance cost is lower, lower maintenance & repair cost. A 1/2 ton when set up properly will do a fine job. 3/4 ton Gas or Diesel is nice for towing but there are trade offs either way you go.
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