Newbie: Tow Vehicle _ 15' Honda Pilot AWD - 4500 weight limit

[BayouBiker]

Originally Posted by woodytwo

Hi BD. I'm sorry that you as a newbie have had what I would call a somewhat less than helpful experience for a new member.
Your post kind of got took over into a whole lot of "discussion" on non Pilot towing capacity.

BD asked about a range of trailer sizes perfectly appropriate for the Pilot, and the responses to BD reflected that. Nobody ridiculed BD or the question and all respondents indicated the set-up was fine.

In my humble experience nobody should ever look for a tow vehicle that needs to be able to haul their rig up a 18 degree mountain at a steady 65 mph. But then I don't have a Ram 2500 diesel nor do I want one. I have never seen any official standing by the hiway waiting to hand out the prize to the fastest one up the mountain.

Agreed, an 18 percent grade is beyond reasonable. The Society of Automotive Engineers selected 7-8% as their acceleration and hill climbing criteria. 6-8% grades are not too uncommon. By engineering standards(an entire industry of engineering experts, not a single person), a tow vehicle must perform on 6-8% grades at the advertised tow capacity.

I'm sorry you're offended that the SAE and your vehicle manufacturer has properly determined your set-up is unsuitable, but your beef is not with those on this site honest enough to point out your error. Physics cannot be cheated. The SAE specifications are carefully determined based on technical and physical capability so the vehicle performs safely and competently on the highway at speeds that are safe for the driver, passengers and everyone else who shares the road. It's unfortunate you don't seem to understand that. It's even more unfortunate that an expert who should know better, would agree to set up such technical failures.

People come to this site for accurate advice, particularly new people. those in the community have an obligation to be straight with them. I get that others prefer ignorance and deception and get their nose tweaked when confronted with facts they don't like, but it cannot be helped. In the real world there is no free lunch.

[Gibson3798]

Personalities aside, I can’t understand why anyone would want a TV towing something at the upper limits of its capabilities. Doesn’t common sense indicate that a much safer option would be to have more towing capability than needed on a flat highway?
This doesn’t seem that hard to comprehend so there must be some hidden pleasure in doing more with less.

[SteveNdebbie]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

What was said already so as long as you watch the vehicle payload you are in good shape.

You will need a brake controller and a light WD hitch with good sway control. You will also want to manage tire pressure, particularly on the rear wheels. You will want to increase the pressure to support actual weight and add pressure 15-20% reserve weight capacity (use the load charts) if you won't exceed max design pressure for the tires.

Other than these you should be good.

To be fair BayouBiker gave good advice at the beginning. We all agree your setup should be fine. My setup is more on the extreme side but I posted to help reassure BD that his setup should work if done right. I recommend the setup done by CanAm, or at least e-mail them and they will give you recommendations. They have done over 2000 setups on the Pilot/Odyssey/Ridgeline/MDX platform. I use a Hensley Arrow WD anti-sway hitch and had reinforcement to my MDX receiver due to my heavy hitch weight. My max tire pressure is 50 and I run mine at 43-45. I also changed to a LT tire for better sidewall stability. The 2nd generation MDX’s were designed to tow and my setup illustrates the capability although I am over the manufacturer/government specs. Seems as though Acura went conservative on their TV rating and I cannot say how the OP’s Pilot compares. The Subaru Ascent has the same tow rating as the MDX but I wouldn’t trust that claim. I’m not sure I would tow our Airstream with the 3rd gen MDX even with the tow package due to the smaller engine and the 9 speed transmission.

[SteveNdebbie]

Originally Posted by Gibson3798

Personalities aside, I can’t understand why anyone would want a TV towing something at the upper limits of its capabilities. Doesn’t common sense indicate that a much safer option would be to have more towing capability than needed on a flat highway?
This doesn’t seem that hard to comprehend so there must be some hidden pleasure in doing more with less.

We already owned the MDX, it was paid for, and we didn’t want to buy another vehicle. We were able to make it work as our TV and our daily driver. Also very comfortable driving position for my 4’10” wife and me at 6’0.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by SteveNdebbie

snip....
The 2nd generation MDX’s were designed to tow and my setup illustrates the capability although I am over the manufacturer/government specs.

It's good that you accept the fact that you are on the edge...
Something that some of us just don't understand.
Sorry if that ruffles some ego's.

The AirForum credo...
“If you’re happy with what you’re using…it’s adequate.
If other people are un-happy….it’s not”
RLC

Bob
🇺🇸

[Ray Eklund]

I drive primarily TWO LANE State Highways in the Rocky Mountain region.

The overloaded Trailer and under sized/under powered tow vehicle is common. Watching a trailer swaying and they hit the brakes, slowing down even more... forcing competent drivers and tow vehicle to either slow down, back off... or pass to avoid the accident sure to come.

This puts competent drivers with proper combinations of tow vehicle and trailer in jeopardy (danger of loss, harm or failure) needing to pass these incompetents.

Did someone hit the IGNORE THE PILOT WEBSITE button? THE information the OP asked... is on this Forum for Pilot Owners and their comments. Not very favorable, I must add to towing.

What a bunch of hypocrites. (A person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.)

Going Elk hunting with a 22 caliber rifle is a fair comparison of ignorance.

Then the naysayers say anything goes and slobber all over themselves. Very disappointing. No wonder I find myself becoming just a spectator of a Circus and a Three Ring Circus with some lousy advice being given.

[SteveNdebbie]

Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

It's good that you accept the fact that you are on the edge...
Something that some of us just don't understand.
Sorry if that ruffles some ego's.

The AirForum credo...
“If you’re happy with what you’re using…it’s adequate.
If other people are un-happy….it’s not”
RLC

Bob
[emoji631]

I’m happy![emoji4]

[n2916s]

Originally Posted by woodytwo

Hi BD. I'm sorry that you as a newbie have had what I would call a somewhat less than helpful experience for a new member.

Your post kind of got took over into a whole lot of "discussion" on non Pilot towing capacity.

Please do not expect the same type of negative bs responses from those who may think they have the only right answer to tow vehicles. Don't get me wrong. Several respondents provided excellent information about what you need make your tow vehicle and trailer combination work at its best and valuable information on the Pilot as a tow vehicle. Unfortunately we had one person in particular who seemed to think that he had the only right answer to your question. In my humble experience nobody should ever look for a tow vehicle that needs to be able to haul their rig up a 18 degree mountain at a steady 65 mph. But then I don't have a Ram 2500 diesel nor do I want one. I have never seen any official standing by the hiway waiting to hand out the prize to the fastest one up the mountain.



There are many hundreds of people who own A/S trailers that tow with minivans, cars and SUV's that are deemed by others to be incapable of towing safely, have never caused an accident, have never been in an accident, have very rarely held up traffic, do not have red knuckles wrapped around the steering wheel, who drive the speed limit, who know what trailer sway is but have never had to worry about it and really enjoy their trip. I put myself in that grouping. But I do have to admit that before I talked to people who were doing it and visited the real experts who studied it and could demonstrate it, I was a total nonbeliever. I talked to the folk at CanAmRV.ca. Andy Thomson has been looking at towing alternatives since the 70's. His web site has lots of information on towing, lots of demonstrative videos (he does his own driving on that test track), and customers that drive across the country to have his people set up their rigs for safe towing. Folks call, email or write to him from all over. He is always in demand for speaking engagements. Have a look at his website and give him a call.



and a much delayed "Welcome DB to the Airforums".



Woodytwo

In 14 years on the Forum, I don’t think I’ve seen a better post than this.

[gypsydad]

Lots of good advise here...and of course some not so good! So, what are you going to do; keep the Pilot and get it modified or get a TV with better capabilities and larger payload for towing your AS? In the end, it's your decision you will be living/towing with, right? Let us know how things go, and welcome!

[BayouBiker]

I liked it for the snark, deception and projection.

[bono]

You know what? I see hundreds of drivers lacking skills and common sense behind the wheel. Every day. This is just during my daily commute. I do not need to drive to Rockies. The problem is that testing of the drivers in the US is a JOKE. These guys who are not trained properly to drive cars solo are hitching up and going, because the nature is calling. The fact that you can tow that big trailers in the US without an additional certification is just mind blowing.

I hope you are aware that a bigger vehicle does not make the driver more competent? Actually, MANY times this is to the contrary. How many times I saw a big truck speeding with a trailer, where the hitch was not set up properly? Many. I guess the logic is "I have a big, safe tow vehicle. I am good to go.".

In some parts of the world people are driving rear wheel drive cars on summer tires in winter (this is not their choice, by the way). In the US many would say - hey, you need winter tires and all wheel drive. Real life shows that you do not need it. Lack of winter tires and AWD makes these guys real experts behind the wheel. It is not 7 liter engine or big wheel base which makes you expert when towing.

Originally Posted by Ray Eklund

I drive primarily TWO LANE State Highways in the Rocky Mountain region.

The overloaded Trailer and under sized/under powered tow vehicle is common. Watching a trailer swaying and they hit the brakes, slowing down even more... forcing competent drivers and tow vehicle to either slow down, back off... or pass to avoid the accident sure to come.

This puts competent drivers with proper combinations of tow vehicle and trailer in jeopardy (danger of loss, harm or failure) needing to pass these incompetents.

Did someone hit the IGNORE THE PILOT WEBSITE button? THE information the OP asked... is on this Forum for Pilot Owners and their comments. Not very favorable, I must add to towing.

What a bunch of hypocrites. (A person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, especially a person whose actions belie stated beliefs.)

Going Elk hunting with a 22 caliber rifle is a fair comparison of ignorance.

Then the naysayers say anything goes and slobber all over themselves. Very disappointing. No wonder I find myself becoming just a spectator of a Circus and a Three Ring Circus with some lousy advice being given.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by BayouBiker

The Society of Automotive Engineers selected 7-8% as their acceleration and hill climbing criteria. 6-8% grades are not too uncommon. By engineering standards(an entire industry of engineering experts, not a single person), a tow vehicle must perform on 6-8% grades at the advertised tow capacity, while maintaining a speed of either 35 or 40 mph depending on the vehicle

....The SAE specifications are carefully determined based on technical and physical capability so the vehicle performs safely and competently on the highway at speeds that are safe for the driver, passengers and everyone else who shares the road.

I added back the words in red that you omitted.

It isn't clear why you are promoting the practice of climbing grades at 65 mph as being safe, then quoting aspects of the SAE tow rating test while leaving out the speed requirement, and then suggesting that SAE tests are designed for speeds that are safe. Your logic would suggest that a safe speed for the climb is 35 mph or 40 mph, per the SAE.

The rule of thumb used to be to descend the grade at the same speed you went up it. That was because it was widely understood that vehicles towing slowed on grades. By promoting excessive speed on climbs, you may inadvertently lead new people towing to believe that it is safe to descend at that speed as well. That would be reckless. Just because a vehicle is over powered doesn't mean it is over braked.

You also appear to conflate the SAE tow rating requirement for acceleration from rest, with a desire to be able to accelerate from 65 mph.

Safe and responsible drivers don't promote speeding while claiming they are doing it for "safety"

[BayouBiker]

I know you like to conflate cross issues and alter the context. We both know that the specific SAE tests are facsimiles intended to simulate real life conditions and put all vehicles on a level playing field so the consumer can more easily compare apples to apples.

If you have a specific real life issue you take exception, raise it. It's unfortunate one must spell everything out so precisely on a web forum, but I suppose that should be expected.

On a straight or modestly curving (70+ mph curve) 6-8% interstate grade a competent tow vehicle should be capable of maintaining speed. This would be for inclines and declines. One would expect tow vehicles to follow orange speed guidance on posted curves. Drivers of passenger autos generally expect travel trailers in any particular lane to be within 10 mph of the average speed for that lane. As an example, if a travel trailer is in the slow truck lane with the semis 40 in a 75 is fine. A middle lane would be perhaps 55+ and the fast lane would be 65+

A competent vehicle should have some reserve capacity to accelerate or decelerate as appropriate to avoid hazards like a slow moving truck or an object in the road when a vehicle is in the adjacent lane.

If you take exception to this, please offer the a more appropriate criteria.

[jcl]

If we want to refer to real life conditions, we would not claim that interstates, which generally have a maximum grade of 6% according to the design standard, have someone shifted towards 8%.

All I pointed out above was the inconsistency in your position. If you are going to refer to test standards as describing safe operating conditions, and then ignore the speeds those test standards are based on, you are being dishonest.

I don't think that it is appropriate to promote stunt driving while towing (that being the phrase you have used here previously to describe operating beyond certain limits)

[BayouBiker]

I believe I referred to the SAE objectives and their choice of the Davis Dam grade as a good max grade. I did not intend to refer to the specific test criteria. You in particular know my feelings about the specific tests. If other readers were confused by this, my apologies.

I agree tow combinations should not require stunt drivers to remain safe, and I don't consider maintaining speed at grade of a conforming highway to qualify as stunt driving.

[Henry T]

Did Can-am reinforce the hitch?

[SteveNdebbie]

Originally Posted by Henry T

Did Can-am reinforce the hitch?

YesAttachment 1

[gfmeyer]

I hate to be the lone voice of dissent here but just because a label or a manufacturer says a vehicle is capable of a particular towing capacity does not mean it will actually perform the required task to a satisfactory level. The vehicles age, climate it's driven in, performed maintenance tires, ect. There are many factors that people often do not think about. Even load distribution will have an effect on towing capacity. I've been on the road for many years and I see more minivans and pretend trucks broke down with a small camper behind them than any other type of r/v. Do yourself a favor, If your going to tow with a vehicle not designed specifically to tow, minivans and pretend trucks (honda ridgeline), make sure you have tires that will carry the load and all the maintenance is up to date, especially transmission maintenance. P rated tires are not designed for towing anything. They will overheat and this will cause internal deterioration and premature tire failure.
My credentials and advice comes from over 30 years in the automotive repair field. So folks don't hate on me. I'm sure you can site examples of people successfully towing with minivans but I will never advise that. If you need a minivan style vehicle to accommodate kids ect buy a Tahoe, Suburban, Expedition, Armada,Sequoia. All full frame vehicles built to tow.

[PB_NB]

gfmeyer, I have created a new truck category called "Little Trucks" which is where my Honda Ridgeline lives

I certainly hope that everyone is keeping up with their maintenance regardless if they fall into the minivan and pretend truck (Honda Ridgeline) group or not.

In my case, I have studied the manufacturers load capacities from Honda and from Airstream and have a trailer that fits comfortably in my situation. If no labels, what would we be able to give to the lawyers? At least Honda (in my case) needs to stand behind the numbers that they are publishing.

I would not consider pulling a 31' trailer with this "Little Truck" but my 22' tows quite well.

I am all for installing a HD transmission cooler and recommend that to everyone. In my case Honda already did that along with bigger brakes, Class 3 hitch, brake controller hook up and a tow stability program. I think they are telling me to tow with it.

I have seen more and more little SUV's coming out with a tow rating of 5,000 lbs. This will certainly change the landscape as these non-conformists hook up their trailers and head off for their weekend camping experiences, littering the motorways everywhere!

[2MileHi]

If people would just accept that they need a 10 to 15% margin on weights, all of this figerin and jiggerin would go away and they would get lighter trailer or a stronger TV. I shudder with all this talk about X mph on y% grades. As a quip I wish were mine goes, it ain't the Go power, it's the Whoa power. And no offense intended, but we're not talking about tow vehicles here, just small cars with various bodies. IMHO pulling at their alleged weight limit is in the same category as that oil burner cruising down the road with bald tires. Safety foremost!