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Old 12-29-2021, 10:07 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
Guess I still shake my head when I hear/see this recommendation? Why the "extra" friction sway devices, when a good WDH with SC works great when set up properly? Too many of us have great success with a varity of WDH with SC, especially can vouch for the Blue Ox...3rd AS I have used the BO and the antisway has served us well in emergency maneuver situations as well as on the highway with windy conditions over 12 years now.

Only issue I see with the PPP that folks seem to agree on, is hooking up on an incline and ground clearence. I don't have those issues with the BO. As for the friction bars, extra cost for what reason? Set up your BO with Anti Sway adjusted properly, and you are fine. Why would you pay for an Eazylift and need to add "many washers" and friction sway bars also?? Crazy!
Use whatever hitch works for you, but don’t shake your head at proper setup. It is important to have have the hitch head tilted back as advised. If that takes washers, so be it. Professionals installers have recommended the friction sway bars. Maybe they are operating under the “better to have it and not need it than not have it when you need it” mantra. If you don’t want to set up your combination properly, you may find yourself purchasing a larger, heavier tow vehicle instead. That is a much more expensive solution but some appear happy with it.
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Old 12-29-2021, 02:56 PM   #62
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Use whatever hitch works for you, but don’t shake your head at proper setup. It is important to have have the hitch head tilted back as advised. If that takes washers, so be it. Professionals installers have recommended the friction sway bars. Maybe they are operating under the “better to have it and not need it than not have it when you need it” mantra. If you don’t want to set up your combination properly, you may find yourself purchasing a larger, heavier tow vehicle instead. That is a much more expensive solution but some appear happy with it.
I guess I shake my head because there are better solutions. Proper set up would be with a hitch designed properly; not manipulated with "several washers" and then still need additional antisway friction device? Get the right hitch with anti sway in the first place. Obviously, there is "some" disconnect here, and it ain't me. But, if thats the set up you want to use with the washers and additional friction anti sway vs a WDH that does not need to use "washers", plus its own sway bars, plus additional friction anti sway, you go for it! As you may be aware, I do also have an F250 to tow my 28', and it tracks/tows just fine; sway control is excellent with the BO system. Are you (JCL) using this set up you seem to like with your AS and TV currently or just weighing in?
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Old 12-29-2021, 07:51 PM   #63
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I guess I shake my head because there are better solutions. Proper set up would be with a hitch designed properly; not manipulated with "several washers" and then still need additional antisway friction device? Get the right hitch with anti sway in the first place. Obviously, there is "some" disconnect here, and it ain't me. But, if thats the set up you want to use with the washers and additional friction anti sway vs a WDH that does not need to use "washers", plus its own sway bars, plus additional friction anti sway, you go for it!
Proper setup involves using the correct number of washers to achieve the desired tilt in the hitch head. How many will be a function of the angle of the receiver and other hardware. This isn’t manipulation, it is tuning as part of the setup process. A feature, if you like, not a bug. I don’t understand you arguing against setting up a hitch properly.

Additional sway control bars are simply insurance, as they increase the damping, whichever non-ppp hitch one chooses.

I like the design concept of the pivot point projection hitches myself but can’t comment on them in practice due to lack of personal experience with them. This debate about which non ppp hitch to choose seems like arguing over third place, cost aside.
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Old 12-29-2021, 08:52 PM   #64
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Small PPP experience. ~7000 miles. F-150 and F-250.
Smaller Equalizer experience. ~2000 miles. F-150.

Both work well. Moderate sway event with the Equalizer that was mostly my fault post-lift-kit.

Equalizer is easy to hitch.

PPP requires experience and finesse. I’ve hitched it maybe 20 times. It gets easier. The stinger now sports a yellow cup while a yellow rubber ducky sits atop the target. Both are easy to see on the camera in low light. My previous attempt at painting the target silver was less effective. Angle is easy once you get the hang of it. I do, however, carry the “get out of jail free” lot bar. The PPP bars hang fairly low; I can’t imagine it working for me and my driveway without the three-inch lift.

As for the towing experience, the PPP seems much better. Although at this point it’s hard to separate the PPP performance from the performance of the more capable F-250. And then there is the natural confirmation bias that tags along for the ride.
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Old 12-30-2021, 05:50 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by gypsydad View Post
I guess I shake my head because there are better solutions. Proper set up would be with a hitch designed properly; not manipulated with "several washers" and then still need additional antisway friction device? Get the right hitch with anti sway in the first place. Obviously, there is "some" disconnect here, and it ain't me. But, if thats the set up you want to use with the washers and additional friction anti sway vs a WDH that does not need to use "washers", plus its own sway bars, plus additional friction anti sway, you go for it! As you may be aware, I do also have an F250 to tow my 28', and it tracks/tows just fine; sway control is excellent with the BO system. Are you (JCL) using this set up you seem to like with your AS and TV currently or just weighing in?


As JCL has noted, it’s all about proper setup. It’s not manipulation or some kind of band-aid. That bag of washers is important; the rearward cant of the hitch head has a positive effect on both weight distribution and stability. I emphasize this because it’s rare to see these hitches set up optimally.

The friction bars are insurance. The recommendation for two bars is nothing new. Eaz-Lift (and others) traditionally recommended two sway controls for trailers over 25’. Two work more smoothly than one, with less pressure.

Yes, this is what I use - and have used for the past 15 years.

It’s what Andy Thomson sold me, and I have no reason to change. Everything he ever told me about towing has proven to be accurate.
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Old 12-30-2021, 06:16 AM   #66
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I don't agree with Andy on many things relative to TV mods, but he wrote an article many years ago on the subject of head tilt and WD....specifically relative to head tilt and the physics involved with it. This part of hitch setup is frequently overlooked and ignored. It is an essential part of proper WD.

It is titled, "Why is your hitch crooked", Airstream life summer 2010, but I can't find a link to it. I have a PDF copy, but got in trouble for posting copywrited material before.

Bottom line is, you want a lot of head tilt by using the washers.
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Old 12-30-2021, 06:50 AM   #67
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^^^^^^
?

All balls must be tilted? I doubt the necessity for all.
Be tough on mine.

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Old 12-30-2021, 06:58 AM   #68
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^^^^^^
?

All balls must be tilted? I doubt the necessity for all.
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PPPs are a different subject. I believe they should be dead level. Not for WD reasons, but for bearing edge load reasons. PP has a tilting head, and makes one for hensley. I would recommend one. Your pics always show tilt due to receiver clearances. I didn't like that on my hensley, and bought one of Sean's "PP-for-hensley" adjustable stingers. It is now a garage ornament, since my Hensley broke some welds.
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Old 12-30-2021, 08:37 AM   #69
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I don't agree with Andy on many things relative to TV mods, but he wrote an article many years ago on the subject of head tilt and WD....specifically relative to head tilt and the physics involved with it. This part of hitch setup is frequently overlooked and ignored. It is an essential part of proper WD.

It is titled, "Why is your hitch crooked", Airstream life summer 2010, but I can't find a link to it. I have a PDF copy, but got in trouble for posting copywrited material before.

Bottom line is, you want a lot of head tilt by using the washers.

I don’t have a link to the 2010 article, but a similar one is on the CanAm site, from 2016. This video explains the reason for the hitch head tilt quite well.



As to the PPP design hitches, I asked about them when I visited CanAm. What I heard was that they worked very well for sway control, but that FALR could be a challenge with some combinations. I understood this to be because of not having sufficient hitch head tilt angle, and possibly because of the extended offset distance behind the rear axle, but there could be other factors.
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Old 12-30-2021, 08:38 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by AlbertF View Post
As JCL has noted, it’s all about proper setup. It’s not manipulation or some kind of band-aid. That bag of washers is important; the rearward cant of the hitch head has a positive effect on both weight distribution and stability. I emphasize this because it’s rare to see these hitches set up optimally.

The friction bars are insurance. The recommendation for two bars is nothing new. Eaz-Lift (and others) traditionally recommended two sway controls for trailers over 25’. Two work more smoothly than one, with less pressure.

Yes, this is what I use - and have used for the past 15 years.

It’s what Andy Thomson sold me, and I have no reason to change. Everything he ever told me about towing has proven to be accurate.
Again, some WDH mfg. do not require manual adjustment of the head using washers. The Blue Ox Sway Pro has the proper tilt built into the head and the sway bars when set up properly, provide spring suspension with the chains helping provide additional alignment to prevent sway before it starts. Adding additional friction bars you are using, is also subjective in that you are relying on a "feel" to the amount of "friction" you set with the lever screws; did you tighten too much? Also, not recommended to use when backing up as they can bind. But, I understand if you think you need/want to use these, go for it.
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Old 12-30-2021, 08:54 AM   #71
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Need advice on the best anti-sway hitch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcl View Post
I don’t have a link to the 2010 article, but a similar one is on the CanAm site, from 2016. This video explains the reason for the hitch head tilt quite well.







As to the PPP design hitches, I asked about them when I visited CanAm. What I heard was that they worked very well for sway control, but that FALR could be a challenge with some combinations. I understood this to be because of not having sufficient hitch head tilt angle, and possibly because of the extended offset distance behind the rear axle, but there could be other factors.


The Propride PPP hitch does include head tilt washers as part of the setup. IIRC mine has two washers in the stinger to get the correct head angle for my rig. I have no problem getting proper FALR on my setup, and the whole rig behaves properly and only requires a little adjustment of the WD jacks that depends on the exact load in the trailer and bed of the truck. My setup is easy to adjust because of the power WD jacks I added (Barry’s design).

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It sits nice and level on the road.

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(A little hard to tell in this picture)
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:04 AM   #72
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Right. I'm running 4 washers, which is a bit too much. 3 wasn't quite enough. But I know from my prior Hensley, reese and EQ, that some miles results in some deformation at the tilt "rivet head". So I think it will be about right in a few thousand miles. (PP only has about 2k moles on it now)
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:11 AM   #73
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Again, some WDH mfg. do not require manual adjustment of the head using washers. The Blue Ox Sway Pro has the proper tilt built into the head and the sway bars when set up properly, provide spring suspension with the chains helping provide additional alignment to prevent sway before it starts. Adding additional friction bars you are using, is also subjective in that you are relying on a "feel" to the amount of "friction" you set with the lever screws; did you tighten too much? Also, not recommended to use when backing up as they can bind. But, I understand if you think you need/want to use these, go for it.
But the prior 2 posts exemplify why an adjustable tilt is a good thing. Varying Receiver clearance between mfrs results in the need for different angles between head and shaft.
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:12 AM   #74
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Weight distribution hitch discussions generate plenty of opinions. They’re right up there with tow vehicle discussions!

I can’t speak to the designs that use washers because I have no experience with them. I’m intrigued by the ProPride design, but I don’t have experience with it. I do have experience with the Blue Ox Sway Pro. For my application, it has been wonderful. It’s relatively lightweight, it’s easy to connect/disconnect and adjust, it’s not expensive, and it works as advertised. I’ve had to make an emergency stop after a double tire blowout at highway speed. I’ve driven across the central plains in extremely windy conditions. I’ve never had any complaints about the Blue Ox. I highly recommend it.

I’m not claiming that it’s better or worse than other designs. I’m just saying that it works well for me and it’s worthy of consideration.
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:27 AM   #75
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Again, some WDH mfg. do not require manual adjustment of the head using washers. The Blue Ox Sway Pro has the proper tilt built into the head and the sway bars when set up properly, provide spring suspension with the chains helping provide additional alignment to prevent sway before it starts.
Another way of saying it is that they do not allow for adjustment of the hitch head. Any angle in the receiver, slop in the shank, or variations in the WD setup for different combinations are not accommodated. The castor angle is preset. So, setup is either easier, or incomplete, depending on your perspective. A welded shank with the correct drop and custom angle would be one potential mitigation for this.
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:40 AM   #76
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I don’t have a link to the 2010 article, but a similar one is on the CanAm site, from 2016. This video explains the reason for the hitch head tilt quite well.



As to the PPP design hitches, I asked about them when I visited CanAm. What I heard was that they worked very well for sway control, but that FALR could be a challenge with some combinations. I understood this to be because of not having sufficient hitch head tilt angle, and possibly because of the extended offset distance behind the rear axle, but there could be other factors.
That's a pretty good video. The item he goes into with the article I referenced, that he does not address in the video, is how head tilt affects the hitch's direction of force (through spring bar force) in turns. In a nutshell, head tilt causes the spring bars to swing in a vertical arc as you turn and helps keep the WD line of force down the centerline of the TV, whereas no tilt results in loading of the TV wheels on the outside of the turn. Not what you want.
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Old 12-30-2021, 09:56 AM   #77
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With all the adjustments it is important to follow the manufacturer’s step by step instructions as they know the best way to set these up successfully.

Another challenge is when the trailer gets an axle lift and the hitch needs to be readjusted. And if anything changes such as height of tires (ie: going to a more aggressive/taller tire). Or the air suspension inflates lifting the rear of the TV or the payload changes.

For the majority of RV’ers, they could be running without a proper setup? At least they could say that they have a WDH.

Proper WD is a moving target in practice. Having the instructions close by will help. Going to the scales would be useful but unfortunately most people wouldn’t bother.
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Old 12-30-2021, 10:13 AM   #78
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Another way of saying it is that they do not allow for adjustment of the hitch head. Any angle in the receiver, slop in the shank, or variations in the WD setup for different combinations are not accommodated. The castor angle is preset. So, setup is either easier, or incomplete, depending on your perspective. A welded shank with the correct drop and custom angle would be one potential mitigation for this.
Not accommodated is an understatement...not recommended is better read. Again, the Blue Ox does not have these issues. Have you had/owned a Blue Ox with the Sway Control engaged while towing? If not, what are you telling us? As mentioned above, BO is pretty darned good set up, compared to many...and easy load/unload using the power jack; no head adjustment needed. Also, the BO has saved my "bacon" at least 2 times in situations; I too am happy- as others mention above.

Many of us here have used other WDH; I have used the "Curt Friction" with my Casita so I do have experience with this type mechanical friction device. I also have used Reese dual cam, and Equalizer with my first 2 AS's. However, Equalizer bar twisted on me while backing up in a Cracker Barral; (think about your "friction" bars) This being our 4th AS and my 3rd Blue Ox purchase with the last 3 25' AS trailers.
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Old 12-30-2021, 10:23 AM   #79
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Not accommodated is an understatement...not recommended is better read. Again, the Blue Ox does not have these issues. Have you had/owned a Blue Ox with the Sway Control engaged while towing? If not, what are you telling us? As mentioned above, BO is pretty darned good set up, compared to many...and easy load/unload using the power jack; no head adjustment needed. Also, the BO has saved my "bacon" at least 2 times in situations; I too am happy- as others mention above.

Many of us here have used other WDH; I have used the "Curt Friction" with my Casita so I do have experience with this type mechanical friction device. I also have used Reese dual cam, and Equalizer with my first 2 AS's. However, Equalizer bar twisted on me while backing up in a Cracker Barral; (think about your "friction" bars) This being our 4th AS and my 3rd Blue Ox purchase with the last 3 25' AS trailers.
No one here is dissing the BO. At least they have tilt and it cannot be removed by a novice, or ignorant installer.

It does not, however allow for the flexibility to optimize tilt adjustment at initial setup in order to accommodate differing receivers, etc.

IMO, BO does a pretty good job with their offering. I have not towed with one, but I would expect it to be very comparable to my back-up hitch (Reese dual cam), as far as bar flexibility, overall design, etc.

To what "issues" are you referring??????
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Old 12-30-2021, 10:34 AM   #80
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That's a pretty good video. The item he goes into with the article I referenced, that he does not address in the video, is how head tilt affects the hitch's direction of force (through spring bar force) in turns. In a nutshell, head tilt causes the spring bars to swing in a vertical arc as you turn and helps keep the WD line of force down the centerline of the TV, whereas no tilt results in loading of the TV wheels on the outside of the turn. Not what you want.
I recall the article, and believe it was Hitch Hints - Understanding Ball Mount Angle. It is no longer on the CanAm site, but it is archived here, and credited to RV Lifestyle magazine, who publish Andy’s articles.

http://www.rvhotlinecanada.com/deale...unt-angle/169/
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