Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-26-2018, 08:59 AM   #1
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Milwaukee , Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 33
Massaging the tow limits

Hi Everyone!
My question is part of my research process, and in no way reflects the potential for doing/having done anything stupid!

The background:
Yesterday, my husband decided to buy a 2016 Jeep Patriot. Last fall, he hit a deer, which brought us down to one car, which worked (sometimes) because we both work from home (IT biz).

We don't own any trailer. Airstream is my dream, but we might start with a cheap "practice" trailer to be sure RVing is a hobby we want to pursue. As an aside, I think cleaning the black tank is preferable to potential bed bugs in "nice" hotels, so I think RVing is in our future.

So my question is in regards to some hitches/companies that offer the "magic" solution to a car that is not beefy enough to tow the trailer the owner wants. How does a company like Can-Am, for example, get a car & hitch to a place where they're safe to tow a trailer above their capacity?

Medieval architecture is a hobby of mine. I know that buttresses were put on buildings to push the energy away from the main structure so it didn't collapse upon itself. In that vein, I'm presuming that for some hitches, there is distribution of the trailer's weight that pushes some of the weight energy away from the TV and allows for both stability and going over tow capacity?

I recently saw a PT Cruiser towing a smaller Airstream in a video (not sure who was the hitch provider), and as a former PT owner, I found that too good to be true.

We are planning to get a beefier vehicle in the future, but more heavy duty comes with a cost that we couldn't afford as new biz owners, hence the Jeep.

Ideally, I'd like to get a starter RV (an no, not a Teardrop) and use the Jeep. But, I don't want to be snowed by any company's claims--hence why I'm picking your brains. We've all seen RV wipeouts on the side of the road; I don't want that to be me.

Thanks in advance
Jennifer
__________________

1000Miles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:08 AM   #2
Rivet Master
 
Al and Missy's Avatar

 
2002 30' Classic S/O
Melbourne Beach , Florida
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 3,883
While Andy at CanAm has many satisfied customers on here, I don't think he is an approved vehicle outfitter who has the authority to change the towing limits on a vehicle he modifies. A vehicle with his modifications may tow just fine but if the day ever comes that it is involved in an accident (at fault or not) my concern would be that if a quick review of the towed trailer and vehicle specifications by law enforcement or a third party's attorney indicated an overload condition, there would be consequences. Personally I am risk adverse and that's one risk I choose not to take.

In your case I would choose a "starter trailer" that was within the limits of the TV I had and upgrade both if I decided to continue, but that's just me.

Edit: I just checked for the towing capacity of the Patriot - only 1000#, 2000# properly equipped - so my suggestion would place severe limits on your RV experience.

Al
__________________

__________________
"You cannot reason someone out of a position they have not been reasoned into"
Al, K5TAN and Missy, N4RGO
WBCCI 1322
2002 Classic 30 Slideout -S/OS #004
2013 Dodge 2500 Laramie 4x4 Megacab Cummins



Al and Missy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:19 AM   #3
Rivet Master
 
crispyboy's Avatar
 
1994 30' Excella
alexandria , Kentucky
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,004
Images: 3
I can empathize with you on hitting a deer with the car and having to do the ensuing car shuffle with my wife. Also a family member who travels for their job had the bed bug experience and for that reason bought a trailer.

If I were in your shoes I would rent an RV for a trip whether it be a motorhome or a truck and trailer combination and see if it is something you would like.
If it fits your lifestyle then consider a second vehicle (used) more apt to towing a trailer. It doesn't sound like you drive a lot of miles so having a second hand pickup truck or SUV wouldn't cost nearly as much. There are many tow vehicle/trailer combinations that work but it would be more important to agree on a budget, size and floor plan of the trailer and finally the appropriate tow vehicle.
__________________
Steve, Christy, Anna and Phoebe (Border Collie)
1994 Classic 30'11" Excella - rear twin
2009 Dodge 2500, 6 Speed Auto, CTD, Quad Cab, Short Bed
Hensley Arrow hitch with adjustable stinger
WBCCI # 3072
crispyboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:58 AM   #4
Moderator
 
moosetags's Avatar

 
2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
2012 23' FB Flying Cloud
2005 25' Safari
Santa Rosa Beach , Florida
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,850
Images: 5
Greetings from the Florida Panhandle

Hi Jennifer. We are somewhat experienced Airstreamers (1,900 nights/180,000 miles towing). My main concern with towing a relatively heavy Airstream travel trailer with a light weight tow vehicle is not so much whether the tow vehicle can pull the trailer as it is the concern about the tow vehicle's ability to handle the rig in a severe downgrade situation. I have experienced what i refer to as the "runaway train syndrome". Sometimes the tow vehicle can be overwhelmed by the weight of the tow vehicle in these situations. When this happens, it is downright scary.

You might take a look at the new Airstream Nest. I believe that a Jeep Patriot could handle a Nest.

Brian
__________________
SuEllyn & Brian McCabe
WBCCI #3628 -- AIR #14872 -- TAC #FL-7
2015 FC 25' FB (Lucy) with HAHA
2018 Silverado 2500 (Lillian)
moosetags is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 01:42 PM   #5
CLOUDSPLITTER "Tahawus"
 
ROBERT CROSS's Avatar

 
2003 25' Classic
Zanadude Nebula , Milky Way
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 14,579
Images: 1
IMHO...
Whatever the Patriot is rated to tow, find a trailer that is at least 1000 pounds lighter. Equip the rig with a quality hitch that incorporates weight distribution and sway control.
Then practice practice practice, Camp Camp camp. 👍

Of course if the Aluminitis has already set in,, all bets are off.😂

Bob
🇱🇷
__________________
"Any nation that can survive what we have lately in the way of government, is on the high road to permanent glory."Molly Ivins
“Growing Old…being able to think about the things you can no longer remember.” RLC
"Never tow faster than your Guardian Angel can Fly"
Tahawus....🌥
ROBERT CROSS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 01:57 PM   #6
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Milwaukee , Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al and Missy View Post

In your case I would choose a "starter trailer" that was within the limits of the TV I had and upgrade both if I decided to continue, but that's just me.

Al
Yep, we weren't going to get an Airstream for the Jeep. My question was more of the technical, how's-it-work. Maybe I threw too much background at everyone.
1000Miles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 01:58 PM   #7
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Milwaukee , Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
IMHO...

Of course if the Aluminitis has already set in,, all bets are off.��

Bob
����
Yeah, we're going to get a more powerful vehicle in the future when the aluminumitis sets in .
1000Miles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 02:05 PM   #8
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Milwaukee , Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by moosetags View Post
Hi Jennifer. We are somewhat experienced Airstreamers (1,900 nights/180,000 miles towing). My main concern with towing a relatively heavy Airstream travel trailer with a light weight tow vehicle is not so much whether the tow vehicle can pull the trailer as it is the concern about the tow vehicle's ability to handle the rig in a severe downgrade situation. I have experienced what i refer to as the "runaway train syndrome". Sometimes the tow vehicle can be overwhelmed by the weight of the tow vehicle in these situations. When this happens, it is downright scary.

You might take a look at the new Airstream Nest. I believe that a Jeep Patriot could handle a Nest.

Brian
Hey Brian--we weren't going to go with the aluminum just yet; that's down the road. The Nest--and Basecamp for that matter--don't appeal. Hubby and I need a bit more elbow room when sleeping.

I definitely don't want to go through the 6 percent grades in the Rockies with an RV behind a wimpy tow vehicle!
1000Miles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 02:08 PM   #9
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Milwaukee , Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by crispyboy View Post
If I were in your shoes I would rent an RV for a trip whether it be a motorhome or a truck and trailer combination and see if it is something you would like.
If it fits your lifestyle then consider a second vehicle (used) more apt to towing a trailer. It doesn't sound like you drive a lot of miles so having a second hand pickup truck or SUV wouldn't cost nearly as much.
We considered renting last summer, but for what you pay for a week, you could have a nice down payment on a new, or even get a used.

And yes, we'll get something more powerful to drive in the future.
1000Miles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 02:31 PM   #10
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Milwaukee , Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 33
Thanks everyone--Edit to original post

I wanted to clarify something in my question about "massaging the tow limits". I think I threw out too much info and in fact it was a physics question. I wanted to understand how hitches worked in relation to the weight, and how performance can be maintained with an overweight trailer.

Hubby and I aren't in the market for a trailer--we're methodical, research-type of people. Just doing my homework before we go for it.
1000Miles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 02:37 PM   #11
Rivet Master
 
2018 28' International
Fayetteville , Georgia
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 645
Stay within the published tow rating of any vehicle. There are numerous factors that go into a tow rating, including engine, transmission, brakes, frame, etc, etc. A weight distributing hitch does not increase a vehicles tow capacity. Many vehicle maximum tow ratings are attained only when using a weight distributing hitch.
brick
__________________
brick
2018 International Serenity
Cute wife...
brick1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 02:55 PM   #12
Reads a lot
 
2017 30' Classic
Titusville , Florida
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,204
Images: 1
You may find that going to the manufacturers website helpful. Hensley, Blue Ox, Propride are names you will hear plus a few other.
__________________
Lauri

She Believed She Could so She Did.
kendrick.l.j is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 03:11 PM   #13
4 Rivet Member
 
Tyvekcat's Avatar
 
2014 28' International
Blacksburg , Virginia
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 293
lite

You might try a Casita. They are very nice and lightweight. The Patriot might be ok with it. Heck I saw a Ford Ranger pulling one once.

Yeah new, hobby, new camper, you never know, you might see a good deal on a slightly used 16 foot, 'Bambi' . Stay in the flat lands you would be ok.
Maybe some LT tires, new shocks, but that maybe struts. so you may need those 'airbags' to help. Good hitch.
yeah its all exciting !
have a good one !
__________________
Ra, Chelle & Natasha
For my next trick, I will use my new Airstream & Dodge Ram 2500 CTD to make this pile of money disappear.
Tyvekcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 03:15 PM   #14
Reads a lot
 
2017 30' Classic
Titusville , Florida
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,204
Images: 1
Tyvekcat, sorry, this is totally off topic but...I love your “trick”. Cracked me up. Too true!
__________________
Lauri

She Believed She Could so She Did.
kendrick.l.j is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 03:41 PM   #15
1 Rivet Member
 
Clyde Hill , WA
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 5
Jennifer, although I'm not an expert on this, here's what I found in my research. Weight distribution hitches work by shifting the tongue weight either forward or more often, backward onto the front axle of the trailer. For example, if you are close to or exceeding the maximum tongue weight rating of the vehicle with a conventional weight-bearing hitch, that tongue is going to press down on the rear of the tow vehicle, causing the front of the vehicle to rise. This can reduce the contact that the front tires of your tow vehicle have with the road, which in turn can cause problems with steering and braking.

The weight distribution hitch distributes that weight backwards, towards the front axle of the trailer, reducing the tendency of the rear of the tow vehicle to dive, the front to raise up, and generally restores the safe operation of the vehicle.

Weight distribution hitches can also help with sway, either by distributing the weight properly (having too little tongue weight can make a trailer more prone to sway) or by adding sway control. Sway control works by providing resistance to side-to-side movement (sway) either through sway bars or in the case of Anderson hitches, chains and a special coupler below the ball.

The one thing that weight distribution hitches don't do is to allow you to safely exceed the manufacturer's recommended tow limits. They don't provide extra torque to help you pull a trailer up a steep grade. They don't provide greater breaking power to help you with the runaway train syndrome that moosetags describes so well. They don't beef up your suspension, transmission or cooling system.

I hope that helps

-Jim
jimewel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:10 PM   #16
Rivet Master
 
wulfraat's Avatar
 
2017 30' International
Broomfield , Colorado
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 2,136
Images: 1
Massaging the tow limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000Miles View Post
I wanted to clarify something in my question about "massaging the tow limits". I think I threw out too much info and in fact it was a physics question. I wanted to understand how hitches worked in relation to the weight, and how performance can be maintained with an overweight trailer.



Hubby and I aren't in the market for a trailer--we're methodical, research-type of people. Just doing my homework before we go for it.


Here is how it works - more or less

First you need an appropriately sized weight distribution hitch that generates the appropriate amount of rotational torque on the hitch received. This rotational torque (think twisting) moves weight from the sagging rear suspension to the front suspension of the car. The ideal setup for a car is to have 50/50 weight distribution from the tongue to the front and rear axles.

With a soft suspension car you need a tremendous amount of rotational force to push a lot of weight to the front suspension of the car. hitch receivers that come standard on smaller vehicles (class iii hitches for example) cannot handle this amount of force without twisting, Cara king, wells failing, etc...., which is why they must be reenforced to handle the additional strain. Reinforcement often involves adding additional steel and bracing to the receiver and it’s attachments points to the vehicle.

Once you have the vehicle balanced front-to-rear with weight distribution one often has to then take a hard look at the suspension springs and tires themselves. If the car’s springs are too soft loading 1,000lbs of tongue weight plus passengers could near about bottom out all corners of the car as the stock springs may not have been designed to carrier this amount of payload. Thus, often times putting heavier duty springs in to support the additional weight of the trailer tongue is necessary.

Similarly for tires - if the tires are not stiff enough, they car will have poor handling and feel “squishy” and will lean into curves despite anti-sway bars. So often times a lower profile tire with stiffer side walls with larger rims is called for to stiffen up the ride and avoid unwanted flex in the tires when turning at speed, etc.

And so on. Towing dynamics with a car or small suv require that everything is absolutely balanced correctly for the rig to handle itself properly. Setting up a soft suspension vehicle that was not designed to carry a large payload with massive torque to the receiver assemble requires careful thought, consideration, experience and engineering to accomplish. I do believe there is no better than Andy if that is your goal - he understands all of these dynamics and more (I am sure there are 6 or 7 other key elements I’ve omitted)

Personally, I live near the Rockies - so I tow my 30’ with a large truck with massive brakes and massive engine and stiff suspension - it’s a tool that was designed for the job of carrying large payload without modification... but then again it’s a dedicated tow vehicle so I don’t need to drive around town with it as a daily driver, which would pretty much suck.

Be safe out there. Andy is a good lad - he gave me good and free advice when I used to tow my 30’ with my large / soft suspension suv. Good folks up there in Canada (shameless plug for other Canadians out there living in the US)

I moved to a larger truck after 25k total towing miles with the suv. In the end braking down 10 mile 7% grades was hard on the running gear - and once I got the suv brakes hot enough to slightly warp the rotors which then needed to be replaced. You could smell all 4 axels on long descents. With my diesel 3/4 ton - I rarely even use the brakes as it has an engine brake which takes most of the load downhill.

All that being said if I didn’t live in the Rockies and spend so much time in the steep mountain roads I’d probably still tow with a soft suspension suv - there are pros and cons to both setups.
wulfraat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 09:12 PM   #17
Vintage Kin
 
Fort Worth , Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
Images: 1
Tow limits aren’t anything but the recommendation of a private party. No force in law. Follow that path and wind up with a bad combination. It’s a guarantee. A great deal more than weight or payload matters. Those are not problems.

One respects the axle/wheel/tire ratings. A WD hitch redistributes the heavy weight from one point and spreads it over three. The forces are dissipated thus. Done. Fini.

Of WD hitches there are two types. The Hensley patent licensees, and all others. Of the second class hitches, the Reese Dual Cam (the original) is still the best.

I second the recommendation of a Casita or similar. They’re well-built and have strong customer support. Entry to ownership and experience is easier. They retain their value and should sell quickly.

A tow vehicle is first and foremost family transportation. That’s the single important metric. Properly hitching a TT (rarely done well around here, but important) isn’t rocket science. Nor are fears expressed, justified. The real problems are in steering, handling & braking. A TV that is compromised in these is the bad choice.

Luckily there are many great choices. Fully independent suspension and short rear overhang are the two easiest to ascertain. Engine power, etc, is a non-statrter the past dozen years. Today’s passenger vehicles are far better in this line than what was available forty or more years ago.

Andrew Thomson (in his posts here, and columns in RV Lifestyle “Hitch Hints” are a good beginning. See their website at Can Am RV) systematized all the categories we had to go thru a half century back. A consultant to both SAE and Airstream. More than 10,000 tow rigs set up.

Is a pickup the default choice? Only for the ignorant (when it has no business miles, etc), so take your time. It shouldn’t be so easy to shoot down, but there’s plenty of fact to make good decisions.

A loss of control accident is the usual problem. Adverse winds and driver over-correction are the problem when towing. The better TV is at least as stable as the TT. Would you prefer the one which initiates an accident?

An AS is best (search the reasons, it’s engineering) and a Casita only needs a change to torsion axles to be similar.

The worst TVs are bought on emotion. “Fear” just isn’t accountable when reason offers plenty of line entries for examination.

.
slowmover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2018, 10:17 PM   #18
4 Rivet Member
 
2013 28' International
Bozeman , Montana
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 466
Images: 3
Tow ratings are often based on marketing and other reasons outside of engineering. There are plenty of European cars that have reasonable tow ratings in other markets but when they are sold in the US they state they are not rated to tow. The US manufactures rather push people into more profitable trucks and SUVs by greatly limiting tow ratings on vehicles such as minivans.
HeadWest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2018, 12:22 AM   #19
PKI
Rivet Master
 
PKI's Avatar
 
2015 23' FB Flying Cloud
Walnut Creek , California
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 3,781
So, how does it work? What CanAm does is add additional strength to the receiver hitch by extending the 6"-8" long tow vehicle receiver with what was referenced earlier as a torque arm. The torque arm connects to the chassis near the rear axle. That gives the hitch at least three points of connection to the chassis. With an attachment more forward, it is easier to transfer weight forward to the front axle.

The term hitch is used for two different assemblies. The hitch that includes the square receiver and attaches to the tow vehicle is what a lot of folks think about when they talk about a hitch. The weight transfer hitch is what travel trailer owners think about when they talk hitches. There is a head assembly that includes a shank which fits into the tow vehicle receiver, a ball for the trailer coupler, and sockets for a pair of spring bars which attach about 24-30" back on the A-frame of the trailer. As the spring bars are tightened up, the back of the tow vehicle is picked up like the handles on a wheel barrow. Weight is shifted to the front axle and a bit to the trailer axles. In theory all the weight could be removed from the rear axle of the tow vehicle and all weight could be carried by the trailer axles and the front axle of the tow vehicle. However, that is not the intent. What is needed is for the rear axle to carry it's capacity, the front axle it's capacity and the trailer axles their capacity. You weigh the trailer and tow vehicle at a truck CAT scale and tune the weight distribution by adjusting the spring bars on the WDH.

Hensley and Propride WDH are called pivot point projection hitches. The design is unique as it uses metal links to allow the tow vehicle to turn and does not allow the trailer to turn. This prevents sway from starting by holding the trailer tongue in line with the tow vehicle. The down side is that the design is about 180lbs while other WDHs are more like 80lbs, and they cost $2500+/-$500 while other designs can be purchased for $300-$800. The PPP hitch weight is only a receiver tongue weight issue as the WDH stays connected to the trailer after initial installation.

Investigate the Eaz-lift with friction sway control strut, the Equal-i-zer which has built in friction sway control, the dual cam that Slow mentioned, the Blue Ox Sway Pro and the Hensley/Propride hitches. Web sites like E-trailer have information. The manufacturers often have video to review. Hensleys are sold by factory sales folks. The Propride is sold by the factory.

Now, CanAm can not increase the OEM towing capacity rating. That's a function of the OEM engineering and Marketing department and may or may not be a true measurement of the vehicle capability. But it is the capacity that the OEM will stand behind. What CanAm can do is improve the towing performance of a lot of vehicles. Tires with less diameter and stiffer sidewalls, higher quality dampers/shocks, a transmission cooler and other upgrades can help.

There was a comment that suggested using a trailer which is 1000lbs less than the tow vehicle capacity. That is not necessary, but is wise as the weights given as stock are dry weights with no gear. It is easy to add 200-600lbs to tongue weight and 1000-2000lbs to the trailer weight. Less with a small trailer and more if you travel heavy. FOR NOW, ASSUME THE OEM CAPACITY TO BE THE RULE. When you learn more, you will understand what can and can not be done. Note, OEM capacity values are static measurements. The impact on the tow vehicle and trailer is from the dynamic forces. If you understand the difference, you are well on your way to answering the question you asked.

Lots to learn. Spend a lot of time reading the forum for information. When you understand the issues it is easier to decide on a solution that will not break the bank. Look at the Casitas, the T@B/T@G, the Oliver, the Rpod, and any others that trip your trigger. One idea is to car camp for a while. No investment, a chance to travel, and lots of opportunity to see what other folks are doing. Videos help a lot. Use them as a learning tool.

Welcome to the Forum. Enjoy the ride. The smiles are great. Pat
PKI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2018, 10:17 AM   #20
2 Rivet Member
 
Currently Looking...
Milwaukee , Wisconsin
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimewel View Post
Jennifer, although I'm not an expert on this, here's what I found in my research.

The one thing that weight distribution hitches don't do is to allow you to safely exceed the manufacturer's recommended tow limits. They don't provide extra torque to help you pull a trailer up a steep grade. They don't provide greater breaking power to help you with the runaway train syndrome that moosetags describes so well. They don't beef up your suspension, transmission or cooling system.

I hope that helps

-Jim
Helps a ton--thanks!
__________________

1000Miles is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Tow Limits CV-8 Towing, Tow Vehicles & Hitches 185 08-30-2018 05:59 AM
Airstream Speed Limits? silversled On The Road... 109 01-04-2018 10:01 AM
Tow vehicle limits? Fritzdog Tow Vehicles 29 10-28-2017 07:48 AM
'98 30' Excella 1000 Weight Limits - Walt & Lyn Driver1 Member Introductions 25 09-10-2006 05:32 PM


Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Airstream, Inc. or any of its affiliates. Airstream is a registered trademark of Airstream Inc. All rights reserved. Airstream trademark used under license to Social Knowledge LLC.



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.