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Old 04-26-2021, 03:49 PM   #21
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Hi Duke

We have setup several Navigators for customers and I have test driven most of them. The majority are towing 30's. As long as you set the hitch up properly (unfortunately few are). It will be very smooth and stable. When the hitch is configured correctly you only use about 500 pounds of payload for the hitch weight, the rest is distributed elsewhere.

If you would like some info on how to do the hitch setup correctly feel free to send me an email andy@canamrv.ca.

Do you have the standard length or extended? 18, 20 or 22" wheels?

Andy
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Old 04-26-2021, 05:06 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
When the hitch is configured correctly you only use about 500 pounds of payload for the hitch weight, the rest is distributed elsewhere.
This is fun. We are told by the experts that we can't deduct distributed weight for payload or tongue weight purposes, but Andy does (at least for tongue weight anyway). Meanwhile no one objects to using distributed weight when determining being within axle weight ratings. I have no idea how receiver limitations figure into this. No wonder I'm massively confused.

Edit - Andy: Thank you for posting in these forums. I always find your posts interesting, even in my confused state.
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Old 04-26-2021, 06:44 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by DCPAS View Post
This is fun. We are told by the experts that we can't deduct distributed weight for payload or tongue weight purposes, but Andy does (at least for tongue weight anyway). Meanwhile no one objects to using distributed weight when determining being within axle weight ratings. I have no idea how receiver limitations figure into this. No wonder I'm massively confused.

Edit - Andy: Thank you for posting in these forums. I always find your posts interesting, even in my confused state.
Yes, we have all been told different things. But it makes sense. The weight on the hitch has to be distributed. That is the point of the word “distribution.” It takes it off the back and puts it elsewhere. It distributes some to the truck axles and some to the trailer axles.

Doesn’t mean I’m still not confused just as you

I’ve read another article by Andy (not sure where), and Andy can verify this, that the axle weights are the key. Now that I have moved to a place that has more scales, it would be interesting to get precisely weighed. I’ve basically figured that if my truck is level, I’m good. And I have the IPHONE APP that I use to check things out as far as gross weights, etc.

Also when I bought my 2020 F150, I wanted to make sure my tongue weight was rated over 1200lbs. That would give me plenty of leeway. My gross towing capacity is 12,300lbs on my pickup. Again that gives me plenty of cushion.
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Old 04-26-2021, 07:35 PM   #24
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I already responded to your post, though have had time to think about it a little more. You haven’t picked up the Airstream yet, and I’m not trying to destroy your dreams. It’s myself, my wife, my two kids 5 & 8. We purchased a 2020 international 25FB Serenity last July which we loved. Yours is the same unit with 2 extra feet...in reality, that equates to a larger pantry, closet and a rotated bed. We took it out for a few long weekends, a 30 day trip to the Carolinas and another 2 month long trip to Southern California. We found ourselves searching for a solution to better the sleeping situation. The kids go to bed and you have two choices: go outside or go to bed. You can sit in bed and watch tv... The reality is, after the glass of wine you make it about 10 minutes then you pass out. You might want to look at the Flying Cloud 30bunk. You loose the panoramic windows which I couldn’t give up... that was until we stopped at Airstream of OK on our way home from Cali and looked at the 2021 FC 30Bunk. The kids jumped into the bunk bed area, closed the curtain and we were instantly sold. We spent the afternoon trading our 25FB for the 30Bunk. What makes a trailer feel larger is having multiple living areas. A bedroom, bunk area, dinette, separate sofa, kitchen, larger bathroom, and 30’ bunk does just that. It is much more functional for a family of your size. You can fit 3 kids comfortably in the bunk area, the third adult can take the dinette or couch.
The other reason I am bringing this up. The hitch weight on my 25FB is 837lbs. 50lbs heavier than your 27’. My average hitch weight was 1050 loaded. The 30’ bunk is 890lbs. Fully loaded with the Hensley hitch installed. Almost 200lbs less than the 25’. I run with a full fresh tank and my hitch weight is around 11% of the total trailer weight. It tracks like it’s on rails... The Hensley is responsible for that.
If you plan on doing any amount of traveling with the three adults and three kids in the 27’...one of you will be sleeping standing up in the bathroom. The 27’ does not sleep 6. 2 on the queen, 2 snug in the dinette, then stuff another onto the couch... you still have one to go.
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Old 04-26-2021, 07:46 PM   #25
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weight

You can trust Andy. Also remember your Airstream is a 'trailer'. It also acts like a teeter-totter. If you aren't too lazy you might relocate some of the weight in the 'trailer'. We carry ice chests and a couple totes, well secured of course, over the trailer axles and slightly to the rear as needed for comfort and safety. There are millions of miles traveled back in the 60's, 70's and etc with station wagons. Use a little common sense while driving and enjoy your new setup.
Welcome to the forum too.
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Old 04-26-2021, 08:38 PM   #26
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We have a Max tow 4 X4; 22' wheels, 6 speed turbo Expedition and 25' FBSE Airstream with Propride hitch work well together, no problem in the mtns or otherwise. Very stable. You need F250 to tow 27' safely. We won't get anything bigger as we like having the inside space in the SUB rather a truck. We travel alone w an old cat, children long grown.
With 3 children in tow, I would not take a chance on a rig not properly set up with the proper tow vehicle. Either a smaller rig or a larger truck. Be safe.
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Old 04-26-2021, 11:11 PM   #27
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I am a totally fresh newbie camper, and my International 27FB will be delivered next month or two. My plan is to tow it with Lincoln Navigator (8300lbs towing, 1677lbs payload), and also to seat 3 toddlers and 3 adults in the SUV.

I was totally sold by the rep at the dealership that the Lincoln Navigator would tow the trailer easily, until I read about payload, tongue weight calculations. With GVWR of 7600lbs, and hitch weight of 800lbs on the trailer, is it a safe towing combination?
Happy weekend!
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Thanks for Pappy’s reminding, just check the door sticker.
Looks like the actual payload is only 1427lbs(combined weight of occupant and cargo)
Hi, I towed my Airstream with my Lincoln Navigator for over ten years without any problems. Now, my [2000] Navigator had a tow rating of 8,900 lbs. and a payload of 1600 lbs. And my [2005] 25' Safari has a GVWR of 6300 lbs. with an actual tongue weight of 900 lbs. I felt like I was at my personal limits with my combination. In 2015 I retired my Lincoln from towing and now I tow with a 2014 F-150.
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Old 04-27-2021, 05:09 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Hi, I towed my Airstream with my Lincoln Navigator for over ten years without any problems. Now, my [2000] Navigator had a tow rating of 8,900 lbs. and a payload of 1600 lbs. And my [2005] 25' Safari has a GVWR of 6300 lbs. with an actual tongue weight of 900 lbs. I felt like I was at my personal limits with my combination. In 2015 I retired my Lincoln from towing and now I tow with a 2014 F-150.


They will be fine with the new Navigator. It is substantially more capable than the 2000 model due to independent rear suspension and usually a better tire and wheel combination.

Once you’re towing a 25 there is very little difference between it and a 27,28 or 30. From the drivers seat it’s hard to tell.
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Old 04-28-2021, 12:11 AM   #29
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Andy is the best

The only worrisome part of your post is you are a newbie. It takes a little thought on how to load your vehicle and trailer.

I towed a 25ft fb with a Porsche Cayenne. It was a joy. My confidence to tow came from the trailers I considered. The owners all towed with smaller suvs.

They all said it was wonderful to tow with a reasonable vehicle. I looked in 3 states and each one's advice was go to canam. I didn't workout that I could go but in the end I benefited from Andy's advice.

Mike
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Old 05-02-2021, 01:05 PM   #30
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I towed with a 2010 Lincoln navigator L after switching to a 2017 f250 it was like night and day. I have 5he f250 gas with 430 rears and you can't even tell the trailer is back there. Once you tow with a 3/4 ton you will never go back it's so much safer.
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Old 05-02-2021, 10:39 PM   #31
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You are undersized. The tongue weight on a 27FB will easily hit 1000lbs when you start loading things up. That’s because most of the storage is under the bed. Some have said it will get to 1200lbs. My rear bedroom 28’ has a tongue weight of about 960lbs. But when I load things up it doesn’t change because my bedroom takes up most of the storage.

If you have a family, etc. I would get a 3/4 ton of some type at minium. It’s just my wife and me, and we get by just fine with a 1/2 ton. But we pack light, and you are going to take far more things along with that many people. You won’t need a diesel. But a 3/4 ton gas would have nearly double the payload, and would easily pull your 27FB. You might also consider a 1 ton van, like the Chevy express van, with that family of yours. The downside of the van is you can’t get 4WD
I am thinking about the Grand Wagoneer from Jeep, the new model is advertised as over 1 ton of towing.
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Old 05-02-2021, 10:42 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by s1000pre View Post
I see you on a future path similar to ours... we had our 2020 International for eight months. On the way back home from our last big trip we traded it in on a 2021 Flying Cloud Bunk. Breaking the dinette down at bedtime gets old! It isn’t necessarily the process, it loss of space... where do you go when the kids go to bed?
So you did a downsizing?
Wife and I will stay at the dinette bed at bedtime
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Old 05-02-2021, 10:55 PM   #33
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Hi

Assuming you are not going to "hot rod" the Lincoln, you are pretty much stuck with the numbers on the door post. First step (as noted above) is to verify those numbers. Often people grab numbers from sales brochures. Those numbers often are high.

Next understand that "will not break the vehicle" is not the same as safe, comfortable, or "reasonable performance". There are issues like sway and stability that get into the mix. They are not covered by all these magic numbers.

A reasonable starting point is to assume the trailer will be fully loaded. With an AS and a family, that's often how it works out. Also assume the tongue weight will be in the 1,000 to 1,200 pound range. Indeed the numbers might be a little less. You only will know after you have been camping a while and really see what you have along.

Next up toss in the weight of the weight distributing / anti-sway hitch of your choice. That could easily add several hundred pounds. Some of that weight adds to tongue weight.

Read up on what the "payload" number on your sticker actually includes and/or does not include. Are passengers in that number? Are those passengers all supposed to weigh 125 pounds? This only impacts the "payload" and does not impact the axle weights.

You need to stay under several numbers:

1) Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Rating. This is the combined weight of trailer plus TV and everything that is in both of them.

2) Front and rear max axle loads.

3) Receiver (what the hitch goes into) max load.

4) Vehicle payload. (both on trailer and TV).

Ideally you would like to hit a target at least 20% below most of these numbers. That allows you some "room" to load a bit differently on this or that trip. It also allows you to adjust loading to improve stability on the road ( = kill sway).

Yes, there is more to it that this. Are you traveling a lot in the mountains? If so at what altitude? Running above 10,000 feet means operation with significantly less horsepower out of a normal engine. There are lots of other little corner cases like that ....

As you have already found out, most (but not all) vehicle salesmen really do not understand all this stuff. They are paid to close a deal and close it quickly. Digging into all this numbers stuff is not "quick" .... You will have to do the research on your own.

My thinking is that you are right at the divide between an F-150 and an F-250 ....

Bob
Hi Bob, your reply is truly practical and helpful! I’ll take time to absorb it. BTW, I attended the only sticker I currently found on my Navigator.
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Old 05-02-2021, 11:04 PM   #34
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Sadly, you have run afoul of the fact that most car dealers are both incompetent and liars. They will say whatever they need to to make a sale.

That’s not going to be a safe combination, I would’ve concerned with two adults, much less three and everything kids need.

Did you buy the SUV? If so I would attempt to return it by having a serious discussion with the manager, and if necessary contacting Ford about the conduct of the dealership and your salesperson.

You *might* be able to do with with the Ford Expedition (not Max) with the max tow package.

https://www.ford.com/cmslibs/content...tion_Oct15.pdf
Actually, I was sold by the airstream salesman on the trailer. The SUV lease it’s going to end in July this year. I am considering Expedition and Grand Wagoneer.
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Old 05-02-2021, 11:11 PM   #35
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So much to learn before move to keep family safe!
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Old 05-02-2021, 11:13 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by mefly2 View Post
We have a 25' FBQ that scared the poo out of us on mountainous wet roads when we pulled it with a Yukon ... 2017 NO tow pkg. Now we are confident with either our 2019 1/2 Ton Chev 1500 Silverado with tow pkg - or our 2020 Expedition (cheaper than the Navi)... non max AND with HD tow. We commute in our vehicles more than we tow; hence, the 1/2 Ton capacity ... and, we are glad that we no longer have a diesel 3/4 ton - although the argument can be made for a 3/4 T capacity / safety and diesel exhaust braking.

Something not mentioned so far is the exposed frontal area of the trailer behind your Navi (or, an F150)...
- check your owner's manual ... another whole thread !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T View Post
Hi Duke

We have setup several Navigators for customers and I have test driven most of them. The majority are towing 30's. As long as you set the hitch up properly (unfortunately few are). It will be very smooth and stable. When the hitch is configured correctly you only use about 500 pounds of payload for the hitch weight, the rest is distributed elsewhere.

If you would like some info on how to do the hitch setup correctly feel free to send me an email andy@canamrv.ca.

Do you have the standard length or extended? 18, 20 or 22" wheels?

Andy
Thanks Andy, I have the 22 wheels, black label.
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Old 05-02-2021, 11:26 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by s1000pre View Post
I already responded to your post, though have had time to think about it a little more. You haven’t picked up the Airstream yet, and I’m not trying to destroy your dreams. It’s myself, my wife, my two kids 5 & 8. We purchased a 2020 international 25FB Serenity last July which we loved. Yours is the same unit with 2 extra feet...in reality, that equates to a larger pantry, closet and a rotated bed. We took it out for a few long weekends, a 30 day trip to the Carolinas and another 2 month long trip to Southern California. We found ourselves searching for a solution to better the sleeping situation. The kids go to bed and you have two choices: go outside or go to bed. You can sit in bed and watch tv... The reality is, after the glass of wine you make it about 10 minutes then you pass out. You might want to look at the Flying Cloud 30bunk. You loose the panoramic windows which I couldn’t give up... that was until we stopped at Airstream of OK on our way home from Cali and looked at the 2021 FC 30Bunk. The kids jumped into the bunk bed area, closed the curtain and we were instantly sold. We spent the afternoon trading our 25FB for the 30Bunk. What makes a trailer feel larger is having multiple living areas. A bedroom, bunk area, dinette, separate sofa, kitchen, larger bathroom, and 30’ bunk does just that. It is much more functional for a family of your size. You can fit 3 kids comfortably in the bunk area, the third adult can take the dinette or couch.
The other reason I am bringing this up. The hitch weight on my 25FB is 837lbs. 50lbs heavier than your 27’. My average hitch weight was 1050 loaded. The 30’ bunk is 890lbs. Fully loaded with the Hensley hitch installed. Almost 200lbs less than the 25’. I run with a full fresh tank and my hitch weight is around 11% of the total trailer weight. It tracks like it’s on rails... The Hensley is responsible for that.
If you plan on doing any amount of traveling with the three adults and three kids in the 27’...one of you will be sleeping standing up in the bathroom. The 27’ does not sleep 6. 2 on the queen, 2 snug in the dinette, then stuff another onto the couch... you still have one to go.
To achieve better maneuverability and the hitch door in the back, I chose 27 over 30. My plan was sleeping two adults with one 3 years old in the dinette, and two toddlers sleeps with one nanny on the twin beds and the bunk.

But I think the space and window you mentioned just change my mine. I’ll need to think about reordering another one.
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Old 05-03-2021, 08:11 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by dukecome View Post
I am thinking about the Grand Wagoneer from Jeep, the new model is advertised as over 1 ton of towing.
One ton is 2000lbs. A 27' Airstream is about 5900lbs empty, almost 3 tons. Loaded up, somewhere around 7600lbs or 7700lbs at max capacity, you're almost at 4 tons. But the tongue weight on one of those will be at or over 1000lbs.

Payload and tongue weight: those are the two that get people when looking for a tow vehicle: they'll find something that can tow the overall weight, but might not have the needed payload and tongue weight.
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Old 05-03-2021, 09:29 PM   #39
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Dividing line for a 3/4 ton is the 25er. At 27 feet, IMO you’re definitely in 3/4 ton territory or higher.

Towing capacity (weight of trailer) is not the problem; there’s plenty of that. The problem is the GVWR (gross vehicle weight rating) of the truck (tow vehicle). My door sticker says 7000 lbs. As currently loaded, I’m about 140 lbs overweight as measured at the CAT scale. OK...not horrible. Also, 17% of the AS weight is on the tongue...a bit high. After this trip. I will reconfigure so that the bed of the TV is empty and either leave some of it at home or stow it in the AS near the rear to lighten the tongue. But I’m not exactly happy about making minor adjustments to get my rig within safety parameters.

Hauling a few precious young ones would be a bit scary for me.

Bottom line...

1) GVWR of the truck is your problem. Or said another way, payload. Take a measurement at a CAT scale with just the six of your family along. Make it a day trip to recon a state park near the CAT scale. CAT is easy if you download the app. Fill up the fuel tank at the truck stop where the CAT scale is located because you want to be weighed at your heaviest. Register at CAT ahead of time and download the app. At the time of the weigh-in, bring up the app, enter the location number, hit Accept a few times, get the email with the weights or write them down as it happens. Reweigh as necessary for $3 extra in 2021. No need to go inside. I just did this in the last two days at two different CAT scales in Texas. Be courteous to the truckers who need the scale to make a living (get out of their way if necessary).
2) After you weigh the tow vehicle (truck) unhitched and with just the family aboard, count on a tongue weight of 1200 lbs or more. Mine is 1140 on the 25er. Make it a guess of 15% of the GVWR of the trailer.
3) The bed of my TV contains gear weighing probably less than 150 lbs total: a small generator, a ladder, tools, air pump, 20 lb propane, etc. Some of this will be left at home. Some will go in the trailer. At a minimum, count on 100 lbs of gear...most folks have a lot more.
4) Add it all up...truck weight from the CAT scale, expected gear in the truck, tongue weight. That is the total weight of your truck. If that comes in higher than the GVWR on the sticker, it’s time to look for another truck or another trailer.
5) And another thing...Look at your hitch receiver for the maximum GVWR of the trailer and the max tongue weight.
6) Check out the handy calculator at https://fifthwheelst.com/conventiona...alculator.html

I’m currently towing a 2017 International Serenity 25FB. I tricked out my Ford F-150 as far as possible including the ProPride 3P hitch and Roadmaster active suspension. (Plus the Dexter lift kit on the AS...just so you will be fully informed). We bought the truck with the intention of buying the lighter FC 23 or Basecamp 20 (but are loving the 25). A larger truck could be on my horizon.

Folks will say that the ProPride is heavy. It is. Subtract 100 lbs from the truck GVWR is you go with a different hitch.

I’m a newbie too. I’m sure I omitted something. Others on the forum might have better advice backed by more experience.
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Old 05-04-2021, 05:53 AM   #40
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I 100% agree that you should get a 3/4 ton truck to pull that AS. Sure you can trick things up and maybe get within the technical limits if you travel light and move stuff around but why take the risk of being at or above the technical limits? I went through the same analysis that you are going through trying to convince myself that my GMC Yukon would be OK (similar payload limits as your Navigator) and finally concluded that I needed a 3/4 ton truck to pull my 28 flying cloud. My RAM 2500 is luxurious and pulls the AS great. I’ve never once regretted getting a tow vehicle that gives me peace of mind and exceeds all towing limits by a large margin.
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