Liability of towing over your TV's capability

[tjdonahoe]

Nccddtrucks…I have personally witnessed a commercial truck being weighed after an accident….

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by jcl

Well, if I ever needed an expert witness on towing setup I know that I would look to hiring Andy over anonymous internet posters.

The attorneys being referenced here are going to need to show how being over a manufacturers recommended weight rating resulted in or contributed to the hypothetical crash.

But I live in a province with a form of no fault insurance. No lawsuits relating to motor vehicle crashes unless there was a successful criminal conviction, eg DWI. So this whole stream of debate is academic at best.

The case I sat on had expert witness that was a engineer for the vehicle manufacture (Ford)talked about stopping distance and affects on vehicle and control with modified suspension and tire engineer that explaining the dangers of over size tires on wet pavement. Since I was on the jury those to witness had the biggest impact on the jury.

[CWSWine]

In another post I posted that were several thousand laws per week but I just guess. I did some research and found the statement below. Now we now there 15 million cases can any show me few million on the internet.

"About 15 million lawsuits are processed in the United States each year (Bureau of Justice Statistics, BJS). The object in these civil suits is to help the injured party recover the money lost due to the accident, as well as pay for medical and emotional needs stemming from the incident."


I still say if you don't believe me spend the money and sit down with Accident Attorney and ask the questions. . Just don't ask the guy that setting up your vehicle for towing legal advice.

[Mattedfred]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Didn’t Andy at Can-Am write this up?

https://www.rvlifemag.com/load-capac...-4-ton-trucks/

Looks like it.

One wonders why he and RV Life would apparently feel so comfortable putting this in writing. Perhaps they each have astute legal teams and liability insurance.

[field & stream]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Didn’t Andy at Can-Am write this up?

https://www.rvlifemag.com/load-capac...-4-ton-trucks/

Did you notice that this article was about towing Fifth Wheel trailers, not Airstreams?

Did this paragraph catch your eye: “ Some will say this is because if the manufacturer has determined that loading more than 2,041 pounds of payload capacity will cause the truck to be unstable. If you were to put 2,041 pounds in the back of the box and hanging off the trailer hitch it would be. ”

That paragraph describes the typical Airstream scenario: much of the cargo behind the axle and all of the hitch weight hanging off the hitch. In my opinion, this article does not support exceeding payload limits while towing Airstreams.

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by WellSaid11

Didn’t Andy at Can-Am write this up?

https://www.rvlifemag.com/load-capac...-4-ton-trucks/

I would say a counter post to that would be GMC webpage. I'm just not sure what Andy knows and GM doesn't know? I quoted below:

"You may not give much thought about those figures while making short trips or carrying a couple of small items, but when it comes time to load your GMC with lots of passengers or cargo, it’s important to keep your GMC’s GVWR in mind. Failure to do so may result in you exceeding the GVWR and overloading your vehicle.

Overloading your truck or SUV can carry severe consequences, including:

Broken springs and suspension components due to excess weight
Brakes unable to stop the truck or SUV in a timely manner
Transmission and other driveline components may overheat and sustain serious damage
Unusual suspension behavior, making the vehicle hard to control
Tire temperatures rising to elevated levels, potentially leading to a blowout"

https://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/how-to/...-weight-rating

[Mollysdad]

Since the original posting was Liability of towing over your TV's capability one must first assess the capability.
Then speculate as to the legal aspects of such calculations.
It's great for pseudo engineers and keyboard kommandos because there's no answer.
With all due respect, police reports are full of simple errors, like "what time did the accident occur". My friends accident report was off by 4 hours! And yet some think the police will read the payload plate correctly? I wouldn't count on the police to do much investigating unless a fatality occurred.
As far as liability, anyone can be sued. I'm familiar with an accident where car A hit Car B head on. Car B slid into Car C who was sitting at the stop light. Car C was sued in the proceedings. Looking for deep pockets or insurance settlements.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by field & stream

Did this paragraph catch your eye: “ Some will say this is because if the manufacturer has determined that loading more than 2,041 pounds of payload capacity will cause the truck to be unstable. If you were to put 2,041 pounds in the back of the box and hanging off the trailer hitch it would be. ”

That paragraph describes the typical Airstream scenario: much of the cargo behind the axle and all of the hitch weight hanging off the hitch. In my opinion, this article does not support exceeding payload limits while towing Airstreams.

I think it more accurately describes towing without properly set up weight distribution equipment.

[gypsydad]

I've asked this question before: Would "Andy" stand up for someone in a US in courtroom, should an accident happen which involves an undersized vehicle he modified, towing a larger AS, should a serious accident happen? I think the comments about "never exceed" Mfg. Limits would prevail; no? But again, interesting debate...stay safe and stay legal. Going to get some more popcorn!

[field & stream]

Originally Posted by jcl

I think it more accurately describes towing without properly set up weight distribution equipment.

Respectfully, you must be thinking of a different article; that is not at all what the linked article was about. It was about payload limits of HD pickups relative to towing Fifth Wheels.

[Bill M.]

Commercial use regulated by axle limits and gross weight. So does a commercial rig have more liability if it is under on limits but over on the payload sticker?

[aftermath]

Originally Posted by 85MH325

I am long-retired, but I am a trained accident reconstructionist, and I also ran a crime-scene unit for about seven years...

In most states, if you're sued, you'll be sued for neglegence for "failure to maintain control," "speed unsafe for conditions," or some other catch-all statute or civil construct that is more easily proven and more easily won.

The bottom line is that following the manufacturers' recommendations will cause you to be less likely to lose control, less likely to have equipment failure, and better able to avoid being in a situation that you need to defend yourself in a lawsuit....

What a great response. I want to get in one more shot before this horse succumbs. No one should EVER tow over their limits. Being responsible means equipment suited for towing, using appropriate anti sway WD hitches, maintaining tires and speeds is also part of it.
My issue with those who drive with a one ton dually as they pull their 23 ft trailer is this. The insinuation that we who don't are being unsafe is a bit of an insult. Granted, towing WAY over your limits is asking for trouble but those of us who use half tons are not the threat. I can't tell you how many very large setups have blown past me on the freeways. For some, feeling the "safety" of a large TV makes them think it is just fine to tow at 80mph even on windy stretches with lots of traffic. Being over loaded is bad but being over confident can also get you in trouble too.

I respect those who use 3/4 tons and above. All I am asking is that you refrain from accusing guys like me that I am putting my family at risk and that I am a threat to everyone on the highways.

Those two paragraphs above sum up my position. Drive safely out there and you will be fine.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by field & stream

Respectfully, you must be thinking of a different article; that is not at all what the linked article was about. It was about payload limits of HD pickups relative to towing Fifth Wheels.

I was referring to your quote:

"That paragraph describes the typical Airstream scenario: much of the cargo behind the axle and all of the hitch weight hanging off the hitch."

Typical Airstreams are not fifth wheels. A properly set up Airstream will use WD so that all the hitch weight is not "hanging off the hitch." The weight still will be, but the effects of it won't.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Bill M.

Commercial use regulated by axle limits and gross weight. So does a commercial rig have more liability if it is under on limits but over on the payload sticker?

I have never had a weigh scale look at a door sticker. They will look at axle ratings, and they will look at the licensed weight.

[richard5933]

Originally Posted by jcl

I have never had a weigh scale look at a door sticker. They will look at axle ratings, and they will look at the licensed weight.

This aspect is a red herring to our conversation.

Commercial vehicle inspection stations don't even typically look at the actual limitations of the truck itself, only to see if the axle weight exceeds either the registered weight or the jurisdictions axle load limit. For example, around here there is a lowered weight load limit on some road as the winter ground freeze thaws out. The weigh stations aren't looking to see if you've exceeded your manufacturer's recommendations, only if you are exceeding the lowered weight limits for the roads.

When I drove semi the weigh stations didn't even talk to us or look at our particular vehicle most of the time - as long as each axle/axle group was under the state's limit we were given the green light.

In contrast, this conversation is dealing with exceeding the manufacturer's recommendations in connection with the resultant safety issues and the possibility that one might be held liable should a loss occur.

[Shiny16]

I was once sued for a situation supposedly caused by towing a 5th wheel with my Hugo. I simply informed the judge that I was told by an expert in Mexico that this type of operation was a common practice in Eastern Europe. The case was promptly dismissed.

[mikeinca]

Interesting conversation. Just a couple of quick points.

We live in an extremely litigious society. Common sense and experience tell me that if any basis can be found to extract more money in a lawsuit it will be exploited. Exceeding a manufacturer's published towing or payload specifications, whether it materially affects real world safety or not, definitely opens a door and I don't see any reason to put myself in that position when it can be easily avoided.

Also, there are folks saying that "they have never seen" a possible overweight condition being checked after an accident and others who have either been involved in such a situation and seen it happen personally or consulted with someone else who has. The problem is that not seeing something isn't especially relevant; one can't prove a negative. On the assumption that everyone is being truthful about their experiences, I have to give more weight to the feedback from someone who has seen something happen than someone who hasn't.

My $0.02.

[field & stream]

Originally Posted by jcl

I was referring to your quote:

"That paragraph describes the typical Airstream scenario: much of the cargo behind the axle and all of the hitch weight hanging off the hitch."

Typical Airstreams are not fifth wheels. A properly set up Airstream will use WD so that all the hitch weight is not "hanging off the hitch." The weight still will be, but the effects of it won't.

jcl — Thanks for that clarification, and I get your point.

My original point was that the referenced article by Andy Thompson was about towing Fifth Wheels with HD pickups and does not begin to address the topic of this thread: liability issues related to exceeding specified payload limits while towing Airstreams.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by richard5933

This aspect is a red herring to our conversation.

Commercial vehicle inspection stations don't even typically look at the actual limitations of the truck itself, only to see if the axle weight exceeds either the registered weight or the jurisdictions axle load limit. For example, around here there is a lowered weight load limit on some road as the winter ground freeze thaws out. The weigh stations aren't looking to see if you've exceeded your manufacturer's recommendations, only if you are exceeding the lowered weight limits for the roads.

When I drove semi the weigh stations didn't even talk to us or look at our particular vehicle most of the time - as long as each axle/axle group was under the state's limit we were given the green light.

In contrast, this conversation is dealing with exceeding the manufacturer's recommendations in connection with the resultant safety issues and the possibility that one might be held liable should a loss occur.

It is interesting how different people interpret the same information differently .

I see the thread title referring to capability of a tow vehicle.

You interpret that as referring to published manufacturers guidance on a standard test.

I don’t ever want to exceed the capabilities of the tow vehicle. One way to not exceed that capability is to slow down, for example. Driving beyond a state at which the operator has full control creates liability. It doesn’t much matter to me what a sticker says, unless it refers to a legally regulated aspect (like tire and axle weight ratings.)

[WellSaid11]

Originally Posted by Mattedfred

Looks like it.

One wonders why he and RV Life would apparently feel so comfortable putting this in writing. Perhaps they each have astute legal teams and liability insurance.

Great point.

Originally Posted by jcl

I was referring to your quote:

"That paragraph describes the typical Airstream scenario: much of the cargo behind the axle and all of the hitch weight hanging off the hitch."

Typical Airstreams are not fifth wheels. A properly set up Airstream will use WD so that all the hitch weight is not "hanging off the hitch." The weight still will be, but the effects of it won't.

Right. Nobody should be hanging all of their PL off the hitch while towing an AS.

Originally Posted by field & stream

Did you notice that this article was about towing Fifth Wheel trailers, not Airstreams?

Did this paragraph catch your eye: “ Some will say this is because if the manufacturer has determined that loading more than 2,041 pounds of payload capacity will cause the truck to be unstable. If you were to put 2,041 pounds in the back of the box and hanging off the trailer hitch it would be. ”

That paragraph describes the typical Airstream scenario: much of the cargo behind the axle and all of the hitch weight hanging off the hitch. In my opinion, this article does not support exceeding payload limits while towing Airstreams.

Why would you put all of your available PL over the back of the box and hitch? That's just silly and was Andy's point.

Originally Posted by field & stream

jcl — Thanks for that clarification, and I get your point.

My original point was that the referenced article by Andy Thompson was about towing Fifth Wheels with HD pickups and does not begin to address the topic of this thread: liability issues related to exceeding specified payload limits while towing Airstreams.

Yes, I can read and see that most of it was about a 5th wheel, but there are also many points that apply to ALL TVs, especially HD TVs:


(from the article):


"However, when the truck arrived the sticker on the door shows a payload capacity of only 2,041 pounds, which is ridiculously low for a HD truck."


"since some Fifth Wheels weigh close to 14,700 pounds, it will definitely put more than 2,000 pounds on the pin, let alone other weight in the truck. So, either the tow rating or the payload number of the customer’s F-250 is not correct."


"Since the trucks have such a long-term track record of easily towing 14,000 pound Fifth Wheels you would have to conclude that the tow rating is valid, but something does not make sense with the payload number. "


"In order to be a luxury vehicle, the truck could keep its primitive chassis, but the interior needed sprucing up. Things like a back seat, four doors, more sound deadening to make the vehicle quieter, everyone figures their truck has to be a 4×4 so that had to go in. Then came the diesel engine which was much heavier and needed even more sound insulation, so the trucks became heavier again. All engines became more powerful so the transmissions, transfer cases and axles had to be larger. This also meant bigger brakes, tires and wheels. The outcome of all this meant at one point in the 90’s, you could buy an F-250 that weighed 7,600 pounds with a GVWR of 8,800 lbs. so in theory, only 1,200 pounds of payload. However, at the time no one paid attention to payload numbers everyone just looked at the axle capacities. That method is still what makes the most sense today."

"Likely the main driver of the low payload number has nothing to do with the truck’s capability and everything to do with regulatory compliance. Once the GVWR of a truck exceeds 10,000 pounds it is subject to a host of regulations and red tape. The 10,000-pound number was decided upon back when trucks were much lighter, but also without antilock brakes, stability control etc. etc. So even though the trucks have become larger and heavier with far more capability the payload number will be artificially low, it has no bearing on performance or capability just regulatory compliance. In fact, you can spec a F-350 with the GVWR lowered to 9,900 pounds."


"So, the question becomes how much pin weight can this truck actually carry safely and reliably? Will it carry their 12,000-pound fifth wheel with 2500 pounds of pin weight? Let’s take a look at the numbers.

Here we can see the F-250 could carry 3,870 pounds of pin weight before exceeding the rear tire capacity. Though that would not be advisable. However, the F-350 will easily handle the same weight and the only difference is a slightly heavier rear axle and one additional leaf in the springs. Now if you decide to go weigh your combination and you discover that your fifth wheel has a rear axle weight of 3,000 pounds and your rear axle is at 6,700 pounds, don’t get too concerned, as there is plenty of tire capacity and the axle components have plenty of overbuild in them. If you can lighten the load in your front storage a little then go ahead but don’t feel you have to rush out and change trucks.


This F-250 will safely and reliably tow their fifth wheel hundreds of thousands of miles if they so choose. I’m sure some people won’t be comfortable exceeding a number that is written down, which is understandable, but their truck may be able to easily tow what they’re asking of it. However, I don’t think it will be very many as I don’t see many driving 100 KPH on the 401."


Everyone can rely upon what info they wish. I will tend to lean towards the person that himself (and his company) that have installed and set up tens of thousands of trailers. This is as opposed to those have done it on a few or a maybe a dozen rigs over the years and then come onto the forum to tell everyone else about their superior knowledge as a trailer/hitch setup expert, automotive/tire engineer, amateur lawyer/accident investigator/police officer, physicist, materials engineer, wannabee truck driver/DOT inspector, etc.


No matter what you do, be safe and smart - and also have more TV than you need!