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Old 07-30-2014, 10:48 AM   #61
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Interesting set of data. I believe the first graph showing that the diesel gets 15% better fuel economy than the the gassers is spot on.

When it gets real specific is where I have a problem. My 2008 Tundra, 2wd with the 5.7L and 6 speed, gets very good fuel economy for a TV. Naked it gets 19-20 on the road. Towing my rig this summer over 2,000 miles, my mileage has been right at 13.5 mpg. Now my rig is light at 11,500 lbs and I go 55-65 mph.

Where I question the validity of the survey makers is why they included a Honda Element and a Nissan Xterra in the survay? These are not TV.

I bought my 2wd Tundra new in 08 for 25k and it has been very reliable. It only has 53k on it. I hope to get at least 300k out of it. I can keep up with most diesels on a steep grade if I want to burn the gas, but I really don't care if they pass me.

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Old 07-30-2014, 12:49 PM   #62
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Interesting set of data. I believe the first graph showing that the diesel gets 15% better fuel economy than the the gassers is spot on.

When it gets real specific is where I have a problem. My 2008 Tundra, 2wd with the 5.7L and 6 speed, gets very good fuel economy for a TV. Naked it gets 19-20 on the road. Towing my rig this summer over 2,000 miles, my mileage has been right at 13.5 mpg. Now my rig is light at 11,500 lbs and I go 55-65 mph.

Where I question the validity of the survey makers is why they included a Honda Element and a Nissan Xterra in the survey? These are not TV.

I bought my 2wd Tundra new in 08 for 25k and it has been very reliable. It only has 53k on it. I hope to get at least 300k out of it. I can keep up with most diesels on a steep grade if I want to burn the gas, but I really don't care if they pass me.

Dan
A Honda Odyssey isn't a TV either, and yet how many people in this forum are towing with one? So we can't say that it's not a TV if a dozen people are towing with it, it's fair comparison.

As to the complaints in this thread about others getting better MPG, please remeber the results are averages.

For example, on another forum for Trailblazer owners I am a part of most folks report getting never better than 16mpg. But we always got 18-19mpg. There are many factors that go into this. How we drive, climate, terrain, etc.

We can't cherry pick data. YMV.
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Old 07-31-2014, 05:23 AM   #63
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Yes, this is a contentious issue (with long history), probably because most of us have spent a pretty penny on our tow vehicles (as well as our trailers) and want everyone to agree that we made the perfect choice. Human nature is like that.
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:08 AM   #64
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Yes, this is a contentious issue (with long history), probably because most of us have spent a pretty penny on our tow vehicles (as well as our trailers) and want everyone to agree that we made the perfect choice. Human nature is like that.

So true!!!! For that reason here is my bottom line logic... If you tow a lot, diesel is the smart choice as it is built to be loaded and will get a much longer life comparatively speaking to a similar gas version. If your are the occasional tower, then a diesel is a big waste of money...
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:51 AM   #65
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Using that reasoning then an AS is a waste of money if you only use it occasionally. Just buy an sob, it will just barely do the job. Jim
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Old 07-31-2014, 06:58 AM   #66
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Using that reasoning then an AS is a waste of money if you only use it occasionally. Just buy an sob, it will just barely do the job. Jim

I guess it is subjective what a waste of money is. I don't own an Airstream or boat to save $$. We like to enjoy our life, so that is where we spend our $$. I like my diesel trucks (we own two) and tow a lot, so makes sense for us. But if I tried to justify saving money by playing boats and rv then I am just lying to myself.


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Old 07-31-2014, 07:49 AM   #67
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We like diesel engines. In our smaller vehicles, we get 30% minimum better milage over the same vehicles with the same displacement gas engine.

We have a 2002 Mercedes E320 straight six 3.2L turbo diesel station wagon in the UK that is quicker off the line and better milage (30%) than the 3.2L straight 6 gas per the sales literature. This engine has the Bosch mechanical fuel injection pump and will still be running when the metal falls off the car body...

I drive a continuous four wheel drive 2007 Mercedes ML 320 CDI diesel and see 27.5 to 28 mpg with the 3.0L V6 turbo diesel chipped by the factory to be called a model 320 versus a 280 with less power chip. The 3.2L V6 gas sees is in the low 20s.

My wife has a 2009 Mercedes E320 CDI sedan and we see 39 on the highway. Same size gas engine is in the mid 20s.

Our 2012 Dodge with Cummins gets better mpg due to some changes that make it operate cooler and more efficiently. I see 10.5 mpg going through the mountains getting out of Phoenix to the east and around 14 on the level at a GCVW approaching 19,000 pounds.

Diesels are capable of a 30% better fuel economy than gas engines without the "hybrid" battery junk which is bad for the environment when the batteries die and have to be replaced at great expense (if the warranty has expired). The used value of a Prius has to be dropped the closer it gets to the 5 to 6 thousand dollar battery replacement time.
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Old 07-31-2014, 09:28 AM   #68
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Yes, this is a contentious issue (with long history), probably because most of us have spent a pretty penny on our tow vehicles (as well as our trailers) and want everyone to agree that we made the perfect choice. Human nature is like that.
Perfectly said, and sums it up!!
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Old 07-31-2014, 04:14 PM   #69
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I think you hit the nail on the head. I did not pay much for my POS Excursion but it gets the job done with capacity to spare. I am cheap and drive vehicles till the wheels fall off. I have had a diesel and they are a time and money pit and since I do the work it matters.

Perry

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Yes, this is a contentious issue (with long history), probably because most of us have spent a pretty penny on our tow vehicles (as well as our trailers) and want everyone to agree that we made the perfect choice. Human nature is like that.
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Old 07-31-2014, 08:11 PM   #70
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"...The used value of a Prius has to be dropped the closer it gets to the 5 to 6 thousand dollar battery replacement time..."

A rebuilt battery for a prius is around 1300$. And toyota is the best for resale value...

I think that people get diesel truck because of the "torque" factor but more because they can afford it...


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Old 08-07-2014, 08:37 PM   #71
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This is a very interesting topic to my wife and I. We will be upgrading out TV soon and we are researching a lot.

Our 21ft. Globe trotter is 3300lb dry so we do not need a big TV also due to a change in my wife's job she might need to get a new SUV that can be modified to carry a dog. This eliminates pick ups and has us looking at the 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee, and VW Tourag. We take our AS out approx 4 times a year, besides that it will be commuting through NYC traffic so with all of this in mind we are still undecided regarding diesel or gas. Luckily we have a year or two to make up our minds.
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Old 08-08-2014, 06:30 AM   #72
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I think you hit the nail on the head. I did not pay much for my POS Excursion but it gets the job done with capacity to spare. I am cheap and drive vehicles till the wheels fall off. I have had a diesel and they are a time and money pit and since I do the work it matters.

Perry

I think that the right vehicle, is the vehicle the serves it's intended purpose gas or diesel... I do want to add however that I also do my own maintenance, and the only thing that my diesel really needs in terms of regular maintenance that is more expensive then a gas are oil changes (12-16 quarts vs 5-7 for a gas) and batteries (2 vs 1)... So that is certainly more expensive... However water pumps, air condition, coolant filters and virtually every other system... not to mention no spark plugs and longer service intervals make my diesel anything but a money pit...

I do not mean to be disrespectful to you Mr Perry and question your experience with your diesel, but the USA had a bad experience in the late 70's and 80's with the god awful station wagon diesels that soured diesels for the next 30 years. If one travels almost anywhere else in the world, diesels are the standard for transportation because they are better, simpler and more cost effective....
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Old 08-08-2014, 08:44 AM   #73
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In third world countries that don't have our EPA restrictions diesels might still be simple. Today's diesels are not simple at all. I have a Kubota diesel tractor and I change the oil in it every 5 years or so and that is about it. It is when things break that a diesel really costs you money. I got rid of my old truck with a diesel because I did not have the time money and equipment to repair the thing.

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Old 08-08-2014, 09:30 AM   #74
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In third world countries that don't have our EPA restrictions diesels might still be simple. Today's diesels are not simple at all. I have a Kubota diesel tractor and I change the oil in it every 5 years or so and that is about it. It is when things break that a diesel really costs you money. I got rid of my old truck with a diesel because I did not have the time money and equipment to repair the thing.

Perry

Mr. Perry,

There have been some horrible light duty diesels introduced over the past 10 years... The ford 6.0 comes to mind, and as a side note, many were deemed lemons or suffered from such a bad reputation that they have been shipped to the Caribbean and South American markets to sell used to unsuspecting buyers.

I have been fortunate, one Ford navistar 7.3 diesel, 2 dodge cumins 5.9's, 1 dodge cummins 6.7 and 3 6bta cummins marine blocks (5.9 in marine form). The only problem I have ever had after 1000's upon 1000's of hours of use is a turbo seal blowing on a boat's 6bta turbo... And that from a poor install...

I am sorry to hear about your experience, it honestly just makes me mad at consumer focused American "trend" diesels... You are correct, diesels are getting too complicated, but so are gas engines... I will have to figure out how complicated the newer one's are when I trade the current 2008 6.7 cummins 3500 in a few years with about 500,000 miles on her, and still running strong .


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Old 08-08-2014, 10:37 AM   #75
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I have been driving Ford diesels as my daily driver since the mid-1980s. I have lived in remote locations in the West, driven a lot of rough miles, and average over 40K a year in miles driven.

In all that time, even though I owned the dreaded 6.0 for 5 years, I have never had any problems or expenses other than general maintenance, tires, batteries, and belts.

I know that the internet is full of issues but my personal experience gives me a lot of confidence in Ford Diesels and my costs have been minimal.

Since Diesels hold their value better and I trade often due to high mileage, I figure I am way ahead of where I would have been if I had been buying gas powered trucks.
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Old 08-08-2014, 10:49 AM   #76
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I have been driving Ford diesels as my daily driver since the mid-1980s. I have lived in remote locations in the West, driven a lot of rough miles, and average over 40K a year in miles driven.

In all that time, even though I owned the dreaded 6.0 for 5 years, I have never had any problems or expenses other than general maintenance, tires, batteries, and belts.

I know that the internet is full of issues but my personal experience gives me a lot of confidence in Ford Diesels and my costs have been minimal.

Since Diesels hold their value better and I trade often due to high mileage, I figure I am way ahead of where I would have been if I had been buying gas powered trucks.

I really miss my 99 f350 crew cab.... New superduty body will be aluminum . I may be switching back to ford next round if their new 6.7 is a winner.


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Old 08-09-2014, 08:44 AM   #77
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I live in the world of total cost of ownership. A new diesel truck is a significant portion of a house and a house is infinitely more important than a vehicle. Never buy anything new and never get rid of something till is costs more to maintain than it is worth. The 92 F350 IDI Diesel was the only vehicle that I got ride of because it cost more to maintain than it was worth other than my 73 VW super beetle. I think these two vehicles required more maintenance than all the other vehicles I have had since I learned to drive. They were both worn out before I got them.

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Old 08-09-2014, 12:50 PM   #78
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From the light duty diesel side... I've been towing with a German 3.0 liter straight six turbo-diesel for two years. We get a consistent 17 MPG towing, compared to 13 MPG for a 4.6L gas V8 in a similar size/weight medium SUV. Even with a modest tank size of 22.5 US Gal, allowing a 1 Gal reserve, that's about another 85 miles of range.

I know this is a towing mileage thread, but non-towing MPG was a factor in choosing this TV. We get a decent medium-sized hauler that does 24 MPG around town, and 28 highway without the trailer.

A minor diesel repair cost was under warranty, so I have no data on longer range diesel upkeep expenses. Just being a German product, it will obviously be higher than average.

Of course, the diesel low RPM torque makes for a (subjectively) much more flexible towing experience, especially in the mountains.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:00 PM   #79
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Yes, this is a contentious issue (with long history), probably because most of us have spent a pretty penny on our tow vehicles (as well as our trailers) and want everyone to agree that we made the perfect choice. Human nature is like that.

Do Diesel Trucks Save You Money? Not Always...

Diesel vehicles get remarkable fuel economy, but it’s sometimes not enough to make them a better value overall than their gas counterparts.

The main reason is the higher pricetag: on average a diesel is $5,045 more than a gas-powered version of the same model, according to Vincentric LLC, a research firm in Bingham Farms, Mich.

Beyond the purchase amount, diesels also end up costing a little extra to own and maintain.

An additional noteworthy point is that on a percentage basis, diesels have lower depreciation, but because they cost more to purchase, their total dollars of depreciation are higher.

In a detailed analysis comparing diesel and gas versions of the same models, Vincentric calculated the cost of ownership over five years, assuming 15,000 miles of driving annually. The company found that, in many cases, particularly with trucks and vans, the gas-powered model would end up costing owners less in the long run, despite using more fuel.

The advantage of those infrequent fill-ups might be deceptive. Buyers who choose a diesel vehicle could assume the savings on fuel will more than compensate for the other extra expenses.

But higher purchase prices and other expenses over time can outweigh the savings diesels deliver at the pump; in general, owning a diesel for five years ends up costing an average of $751 more than owning the same vehicle with a gasoline engine, according to Vincentric’s calculations in its alternative fuel analysis.

But there are enough exceptions to keep anyone who wants to buy a diesel happy.


Additional Sources:
http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmf...ort_dd2017.pdf
Cost of Ownership Study: 12 Diesels Beat Gas Counterparts - HybridCars.com
http://www.constructionfleets.com/fc...ifecycle-2.pdf

So it looks like it's settled. Diesel owners are lying to themselves.

Oh no... what's this?
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Originally Posted by rostam View Post
University of Michigan's Transportation Research Institute disagrees with Vincentric LLC's findings

http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmf...ort_dd2017.pdf

Diesel vehicles save owners thousands | University of Michigan News

"The estimates of savings for three and five years of ownership vary from a low of $67 in three years to a high of $15,619 in five years, but most of the savings are in the $2,000-to-$6,000 range, which also include the extra cost that is usually added to the diesel version of a vehicle,"


In the end, do your homework, weight the pros and cons to make the best decision for you.

Cheers.
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Old 08-18-2014, 02:20 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by BoldAdventure View Post
Yes, this is a contentious issue (with long history), probably because most of us have spent a pretty penny on our tow vehicles (as well as our trailers) and want everyone to agree that we made the perfect choice. Human nature is like that.

Do Diesel Trucks Save You Money? Not Always...

Diesel vehicles get remarkable fuel economy, but it’s sometimes not enough to make them a better value overall than their gas counterparts.

The main reason is the higher pricetag: on average a diesel is $5,045 more than a gas-powered version of the same model, according to Vincentric LLC, a research firm in Bingham Farms, Mich.

Beyond the purchase amount, diesels also end up costing a little extra to own and maintain.

An additional noteworthy point is that on a percentage basis, diesels have lower depreciation, but because they cost more to purchase, their total dollars of depreciation are higher.

In a detailed analysis comparing diesel and gas versions of the same models, Vincentric calculated the cost of ownership over five years, assuming 15,000 miles of driving annually. The company found that, in many cases, particularly with trucks and vans, the gas-powered model would end up costing owners less in the long run, despite using more fuel.

The advantage of those infrequent fill-ups might be deceptive. Buyers who choose a diesel vehicle could assume the savings on fuel will more than compensate for the other extra expenses.

But higher purchase prices and other expenses over time can outweigh the savings diesels deliver at the pump; in general, owning a diesel for five years ends up costing an average of $751 more than owning the same vehicle with a gasoline engine, according to Vincentric’s calculations in its alternative fuel analysis.

But there are enough exceptions to keep anyone who wants to buy a diesel happy.


Additional Sources:
http://www.dieselforum.org/files/dmf...ort_dd2017.pdf
Cost of Ownership Study: 12 Diesels Beat Gas Counterparts - HybridCars.com
http://www.constructionfleets.com/fc...ifecycle-2.pdf

So it looks like it's settled. Diesel owners are lying to themselves.

Oh no... what's this?




In the end, do your homework, weight the pros and cons to make the best decision for you.

Cheers.

Best and most accurate post on this thread yet! Well said sir!!
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