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Old 07-27-2014, 09:18 AM   #21
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Can you convert the stuff to biodiesel yourself though?

Perry
Yes...

There is a guy down the road from me that has run a Rabbit Diesel pickup (remember those?) for the past 25+ years on straight veggie oil. He uses dino diesel to get it started and warmed up, then swaps over to the veggie. He was getting his oil for free from the various fast food joints around town. He would strain it to get the crunchies out, then store it in a heated tank. He also had some sort of tank heater on the truck. You can always tell when he goes by, smelled like french fries or fried chicken. He is not a very happy camper anymore, the restaurants are now getting paid for their used oil.

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Old 07-27-2014, 12:29 PM   #22
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Does anyone have any knowledge as to why it would cost more in a chevy diesel vs a ford or dodge? Or, does anyone have any real world experience with this? It seems to be a drastic difference and I don't understand why a chevy would get reduced mpg in comparison.

I have been looking at diesel Chevys and this is an important factor. Do I need to rethink things?
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Old 07-27-2014, 05:38 PM   #23
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Does anyone have any knowledge as to why it would cost more in a chevy diesel vs a ford or dodge? Or, does anyone have any real world experience with this? It seems to be a drastic difference and I don't understand why a chevy would get reduced mpg in comparison.

I have been looking at diesel Chevys and this is an important factor. Do I need to rethink things?
Is that really a difficult question to answer for yourself? Not all vehicles are the same, and neither are they're MPG ratings. Same goes with maintenance factors and cost of ownership.
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:20 PM   #24
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A few random thoughts.

A straight six (liked the Cummins) is inherently balanced whereas a V8 is not. So, part of the longevity of the Cummins might be due to smoother running. (this is true in gasoline engine designs as well).

I would expect to see higher mpg on 27' and shorter trailers as the total weight in motion is considerably less that those with current 31' trailers like our Classic at 10,000 pounds GVW versus a 25' at 7,300 pounds GVW of the 27' at 7,600 pounds GVW.

So when I see similar mpg with my rig at a much higher combination weight, then I think my diesel combination is more efficient than a rig pulling a much lighter combination weight.
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:27 PM   #25
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InfoGraphic: Actual Fuel Economy of Diesel vs Gas Towing

Weight makes little difference in economy in highway driving.

Weight once moving is not a hinderance except as it relates to increased tire friction which really isn't a huge drag.

Now, some more energy is lost as heat in braking with heavier loads.

The short way of saying this is that the energy required to tow a 7500 lb trailer v. A 10000 lb trailer is not even close to proportional. Most towing energy is expended pushing air.

(In stop and go a heavier trailer will make a bigger difference with regard to economy)

An even shorter way of saying this is that say we have two identical trailers, even weight, one twenty feet long, one thirty feet long, the two trailers will tow at very near to identical economy.
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:31 PM   #26
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Energy consumed going up hill is recovered going down, except that lost to braking heat or exhaust brakes.

Engine drag and chassis drag is more or less constant,,, or close to constant,,, either up hill or down.
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Old 07-27-2014, 06:40 PM   #27
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The Cummins used in Ram trucks started life as a truck engine designed for smaller medium duty trucks.

Due to the traditional layout of medium duty trucks an inline six fit the chassis better than a V8 diesel so these inline diesels were the ones that received the most development.

There were heavy and medium duty diesels offered, and many of them were quite good, but they have mostly left the scene in American trucks.

I think that Cummins motors are the best of the pickup truck diesels not so much because of them being inline sixes, but because their engineering and execution is better.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:23 AM   #28
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InfoGraphic: Actual Fuel Economy of Diesel vs Gas Towing

Several of the diesel statistics are true but when I gets down to mpg there is a 30-35 percent betterment with diesel; however, from a fuel economic standpoint, diesel has been 0.40 higher in my area for years. That is a 10 percent difference. Calculate that out and in most situations a diesel has to get a least 2 mpg more to break even with a gasser just on fuel cost. If a urea engine, the benefit is even lower.

The primary argument for diesel is with larger trucks hauling heavy loads and fuel storage of diesel. Used to be durability and torque but those two are matched closely now with gassers. Point on durability check out how much the new high pressure fuel injection systems are that are used on many diesels. They run about $10k for the Bosch one and have a lifespan of about what a gasser is rated.

Urea does not have to do with mpg but it must be figured in as a cost for operation with the fuel.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:35 AM   #29
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Urea has no affect on fuel economy....the DPF does, and they did not come onboard at the same time. So you can have a DPF truck without DEF (urea), but not the other way around.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:48 AM   #30
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I am going.to be honest, between my father and I owning Ford, Ram , and Chevy Diesels right now, I am way sour on the Fords and Chevy's.

There may be reasons to own them, but overall economy ain't one of them. They are too expensive to keep running in hard service, and downtime just sucks.
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Old 07-28-2014, 09:57 AM   #31
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Yeah DEF is like this:

25000 miles per year @ 14 mpg towing and 3 percent DEF would be 54 gallons of DEF or $270 at $5 per gallon for DEF.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:06 AM   #32
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I think that the emission control standards of the 90s were more than clean enough for gas and diesel, and the stuff done since then is a net looser.....

But with that said,,,, I seriously doubt that modern diesel engines are easier on the environment than modern gas engines.
That just isn't true. The new after combustion systems on the new clean diesels are much better but more expensive. New diesels yield more power and higher efficiency than previous pollution control prior to utilizing the DEF system.

New Gasoline engines produce 10 times more harmful particle emissions than new Diesels. Gasoline engines are also a much bigger source of secondary organic aerosols than new Diesels.

In addition, Diesels can use Biofuels which produces less CO2 emissions.

I don't understand a lot of this complaint about the new Diesels. Other than cost there is no doubt that the modern Diesel with modern after combustion filtering is a big improvement over the noisy, dirty Diesels of the 90's.
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:06 AM   #33
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does this mean that my honda element with an engine that sounds like a golf cart can tow a 30 ft trailer? That would be fabulous. ;-)
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Old 07-28-2014, 11:27 AM   #34
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InfoGraphic: Actual Fuel Economy of Diesel vs Gas Towing

The power would have come without the new emission control stuff.

What isn't making the press right now is how many people are burning to death because of the thermal reactors that they call particulate traps.

The problem besides safety is that diesels with this added on crap are not near as reliable, and are very expensive to keep running.

I would be so bold as to ask for a source on gas engines making ten times the particulate matter as a diesel. (As if large particulates really add much to pollution)
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:19 PM   #35
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These DEF based diesels are the most efficient, cleanest burning engines around, the facts abound.

Said engines in use in Marine and heavy tow rig vehicles with less issues (Frightliner & Volvo) as well as used connected to generators powering trains and cargo ships....

The only more efficient, cleaner burning power plant is a modern turbine engine...

Gas engines have incorporated some of the tricks Diesel engines have made mainstream (TFSI, turbos & Intercoolers, etc) thus why Fords EcoBoost, Audi\VW 2.0 TFSI engines, etc. are so great, but the diesels are still better....
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Old 07-28-2014, 10:34 PM   #36
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I have a stack of repair bills that say these diesels have some expensive problems that gas motors don't have so much.

I have a fleet with some of both, in my experience, in the long run, the Ford and Chevy diesels are expensive to own. The Dodges are not prone to so many problems, but that particulate filter ain't cheap to maintain.
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:30 AM   #37
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The soot catchers and DEF systems are down stream of the engine and do nothing to aid in efficiency. They would have the opposite effect. They are also two more systems to fail and maintain. The modern turbo charged gas engines are getting close to diesel in efficiency with less complication.

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These DEF based diesels are the most efficient, cleanest burning engines around, the facts abound.

Said engines in use in Marine and heavy tow rig vehicles with less issues (Frightliner & Volvo) as well as used connected to generators powering trains and cargo ships....

The only more efficient, cleaner burning power plant is a modern turbine engine...

Gas engines have incorporated some of the tricks Diesel engines have made mainstream (TFSI, turbos & Intercoolers, etc) thus why Fords EcoBoost, Audi\VW 2.0 TFSI engines, etc. are so great, but the diesels are still better....
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:41 AM   #38
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Again, DEF system has no affect on efficiency nor fuel economy.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:13 AM   #39
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Again, DEF system has no affect on efficiency nor fuel economy.
Well in a way the DEF system does have much to do with efficiency and fuel economy.

I say this because I own a 2009 Dodge with the dreaded Blue Tec emission system (designed by daimler). This system does not use DEF for after treatment of exhaust so my truck will go into regeneration much more often than the newer diesels with the DEF system. Regeneration means more fuel consumed to burn off the soot - loss of efficiency and fuel economy.
I have to watch how the truck is driven - not too much grocery getting or idling. This has a tendency to clog the DPF quicker. DEF trucks can tolerate more idling and grocery getting.
Also the Blue Tec system pushes a lot more EGR - exhaust gas (SOOT) into the engine - this in turn puts much more soot into the turbo and exhaust system. The Blue tec system does ok when they are worked hard on the highway but will never achieve the fuel mileage of the DEF trucks (unless you delete the system....)
The newer DEF diesel engines also get more power from their engines by advancing the timing of the motor - this will attribute to more power, efficiency and fuel economy.
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Old 07-29-2014, 09:30 AM   #40
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This is where the confusion lies. DEF and DPF are confused, probably due to similar acronyms. Def and DPF are not inter-related and DEF does nothing to soot, nor the filter. It simply is a catalyst to convert oxides of nitrogen into inert gasses.

DPF, on the other hand, uses fuel to physically burn the soot into ash.

DEF is not a replacement for DPF, nor visa versa. They are not inter-related at all.
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