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Old 08-03-2020, 10:23 AM   #61
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Superchop "YOUTube channel, “Big Truck, Big RV” has recently provided his expert opinion - Trailers at about 6,000 lbs, owners should start looking at 3/4 tons as TV’s."

Since when did YouTube make people experts?

I think he drives a dually, does that make him a towing expert?

Not to chirp at you to much but no body is an expert, including me. We are Just trying to help each other and share experiences good or bad.

Now back to our regular scheduled program.

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Old 08-03-2020, 10:31 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Yes...but are those 'options' included on the sticker?

I still don't believe they weigh the vehicles as they come off the line.

And what about dealer added options?

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The law requires them to state the weight as it was built Including factory installed options. The sheet they post in the window shows you what options it came from the factory with.

Anything added by a dealer is NOT listed on the factory generated build sheet and as such will not appear on the printed build sheet from the factory or be included on the door jam weight stickers.

The dealers can and do write on or type on the window build sheet the items they have added. Easy to see the items were not factory due to the way they clearly appear to not be something the factory computer regenerated due to their placement and style on the sheet.
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Old 08-03-2020, 02:22 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Northerngirl View Post
The standard that the major auto makers agreed to a few years back is the payload includes only a full Gas tank and options the vehicle left the factory with.
I thought it included 150lbs of passenger per seat as well. Have I misunderstood the guideline?
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Old 08-03-2020, 02:33 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Northerngirl View Post
The law requires them to state the weight as it was built Including factory installed options. The sheet they post in the window shows you what options it came from the factory with.

Anything added by a dealer is NOT listed on the factory generated build sheet and as such will not appear on the printed build sheet from the factory or be included on the door jam weight stickers.

The dealers can and do write on or type on the window build sheet the items they have added. Easy to see the items were not factory due to the way they clearly appear to not be something the factory computer regenerated due to their placement and style on the sheet.
What law?
Can't find anywhere where the customer added build options are included or that they weigh after assembly.
Which actually would be rather easy.

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Old 08-03-2020, 08:34 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by matthewk View Post
I thought it included 150lbs of passenger per seat as well. Have I misunderstood the guideline?
You may be confusing with The SAE J 2897 Tow test That does allow for 150lbs for driver and passenger.
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Old 08-03-2020, 08:47 PM   #66
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What law?
Can't find anywhere where the customer added build options are included or that they weigh after assembly.
Which actually would be rather easy.

Bob
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The last two trucks I ordered showed everything I ordered on the Detailed build sheet the dealer provided. Secondly Ford trucks all have a Window sticker generated at the factory that will list all the details as well as all optional equipment installed at the factory.

Go here for an example of a window sticker of a Ford F-150 with the options listed out. Ford F-150 Factory Window Sticker
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:07 PM   #67
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Keep in mind that curb weight includes 150 lbs for driver - so driver + passenger(s) should deduct 150 lbs from their combined wts. - & Curbwt. also includes a full tank of fuel & all other fluids (oil, coolant, Diesel blue/green, etc.) - all of which are a worldwide industry standard for decades & as such works for most Classic TVs too.
I don't believe that's totally correct, at least not for US spec vehicles. The European Union does specify an additional 75KG in it's curb weight rating over the DIN rating to account for a driver. However, here in the US curb weight includes all of the necessary fluids and a full tank of fuel, as you indicate, but it does not include 150lbs for the driver. The full weight of the driver must be added to the other passengers and cargo when figuring allowable payload.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight

Edit: Sorry, looking back I see some others have already pointed this out.
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Old 08-03-2020, 11:05 PM   #68
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OK, this is a little long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Northerngirl View Post
The law requires them to state the weight as it was built Including factory installed options. The sheet they post in the window shows you what options it came from the factory with.

Anything added by a dealer is NOT listed on the factory generated build sheet and as such will not appear on the printed build sheet from the factory or be included on the door jam weight stickers.

The dealers can and do write on or type on the window build sheet the items they have added. Easy to see the items were not factory due to the way they clearly appear to not be something the factory computer regenerated due to their placement and style on the sheet.
I am not so sure about that. I agree on the Monroney label, as it is called in the US, but not on the weights of what is on that label. That sticker is about the consist, the price, and the fuel consumption (also some emissions info). Not so much about weight. Realizing that we are crossing back and forth between the definition of curb weight (which is a legal term) and the definition of payload (which is not defined so precisely, at least in terms of the label on the vehicle), there is still some confusion. I have used US regulations, but the Canadian ones are modeled on the US ones, eg they are harmonized so that manufacturers can sell in both markets. Of course, we use kg instead of lbs.

Quoting from Part 571 of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, Subpart A. General Section 571.3. Definitions, the Curb Weight is defined as "the weight of a motor vehicle with standard equipment; maximum capacity of engine fuel, oil, and coolant; and, if so equipped, air conditioning and additional weight optional engine."

Note that it doesn't mention as-built configuration, simply specific options such as AC and available alternate engines. Payload is GVWR less curb weight, so it would appear that payload could vary with options and not be reported precisely.

That isn't to say that manufacturers don't need to strive for accuracy, simply that they may just use a nominated figures as long as it is under, eg still safe, by way of leaving some headroom for the weight of options. This aligns with previously reported info from light truck manufacturers, which noted that they used typical consists, not a summation of each specific option, due to manufacturing limitations (namely, that the label machine was not connected to the order computer). That was for RAM and Ford, I am not sure about other manufacturers.

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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
So...they do weigh the vehicle as it leaves the assembly line?
I can't find any verification of that being done.��

Bob
����
Now that one is interesting. My experience was with much heavier vehicles, so I had to look up the rules for vehicles under 10,000 lbs GVWR.

Here is what I found (TLDR version: they don't appear to have to weigh them)

In 2010, the NHTSA ruled on a specific petition brought to require manufacturers to weigh each vehicle to accurately determine load carrying capacity for purposes of the compliance label being required. The petition was brought by RV dealers, who were concerned that final weights were not representative of design weights, and that they would be left holding the bag for overloading. The vehicles under discussion were RVs (conveniently on topic...) but the regulation is for the payload label on the vehicle, and specifically for the cargo carrying capacity, similar to a light vehicle which tows. In the absence of info on tow vehicle weighing requirements, this would appear to shed some light on the subject, given that it is the same NHTSA, and they ruled on having to weight vehicles for purposes of calculating load carrying capacity as displayed on the compliance label.

The dealers and the dealer association wanted each vehicle weighed. The ruling of the NHTSA, who enforces the FMVSS regulations, was as follows:

Quote:
2. Dealers Wanting To Require Manufacturers To Weigh Each RV

The final rule requires manufacturers to report the allowable load carrying capacity. In the final rule, we require the statement: “The combined weight of occupants and cargo should never exceed XXX kg or XXX lbs” on motor homes, and the statement: “The weight of cargo should never exceed XXX kg or XXX lbs” on RV trailers. These statements are required to state weights that will not overload the vehicle. These requirements allow manufacturers to understate (but not overstate) the weight value for load carrying capacity. This will assure that when the consumer loads the vehicle to the stated load carrying capacity, the vehicle's GVWR will not be exceeded. When the manufacturer states that the load carrying capacity must not exceed a certain weight value, it means that the stated load carrying capacity weight value plus the UVW is less than or equal to the GVWR. The manufacturer must consider product variability to ensure that the load carrying capacity plus the UVW does not exceed the GVWR.[4]

In its petition for reconsideration, RVDA requests that NHTSA require “all recreational vehicles, regardless of weight, be weighed by the final stage manufacturer after all options and equipment are installed, and that the actual weight of the unit be used to calculate the cargo carrying capacity disclosed to the consumer.” The petitioner (associated RV dealers) reports that manufacturers used an “exemplar” method [5] to report the unloaded vehicle weight of RVs on a voluntary RV industry label, and that a dealer had been sued because it was discovered that the actual vehicle weight of some RV trailers was substantially greater than that reported on the label. RVDA is concerned that the exemplar method may not take into account unit-specific options, running changes in construction and materials, variations in the density of material used in units built to the same plans, and increases in the weight of wood due to humidity absorption if the exemplar unit was weighed during a drier time of year.

AGENCY RESPONSE

We are denying this request. In the past, manufacturers were not required by the FMVSSs to provide unloaded vehicle weights and the cargo carrying capacity (GVWR minus UVW, full fresh water and full LP-gas weight) of RVs over 10,000 pounds GVWR. We believe that the December 2007 final rule will eliminate the practices that led to overstating the vehicle carrying capacity for these vehicles. The preamble to the final rule (at 72 FR 68456) stated:

* * * we are requiring that the stated load carrying capacity not overload the vehicle. The GVWR of the vehicle must not be exceeded when the vehicle is loaded with the stated load carrying capacity. Manufacturers are permitted to understate the value of load carrying capacity to compensate for variances in manufacturing techniques, materials, and weighing techniques, however, under no circumstances is an overstated value of load carrying capacity permitted. Any inaccuracies due to scale tolerances and variances in manufacturing techniques or materials must be compensated for by appropriately increasing the safety factor between the allotted weight for occupants and cargo (or just cargo in the case of RV trailers) and the GVWR. Accordingly, the probability of moisture absorption by wooden structures before first retail sale should be considered in assigning the load carrying capacity.

Manufacturers are free to weigh each unit and apply a factor of safety for expected moisture absorption to arrive at the vehicle capacity weight, or they can weigh an exemplar unit and adjust for differences in option content, construction details and variations in material density as well as moisture absorption, applying appropriate factors of safety. Regardless, the amendments to FMVSS No. 120 require manufacturers to determine the accurate vehicle capacity weight. We do not believe there is a need to also require manufacturers to weigh each RV individually and provide the weight of the vehicle to the consumer. Accordingly, the request is denied.
The Federal Register provides rulings, the one above is here: https://www.federalregister.gov/docu...rying-capacity

This is all interesting, but perhaps we could just conclude that the GVWR is real (and enforceable for commercial carriers, but not necessarily for private vehicle use); that weighing your own vehicle provides a true indication of the weight of the vehicle; and the actual rated carrying capacity, whatever the compliance label says, is the difference between the GVWR and the measured vehicle weight. The label is just there for consumer convenience.

Jeff
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Old 08-03-2020, 11:59 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by jcl View Post
Quoting from Part 571 of the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards, Subpart A. General Section 571.3. Definitions, the Curb Weight is defined as "the weight of a motor vehicle with standard equipment; maximum capacity of engine fuel, oil, and coolant; and, if so equipped, air conditioning and additional weight optional engine."

Note that it doesn't mention as-built configuration, simply specific options such as AC and available alternate engines. Payload is GVWR less curb weight, so it would appear that payload could vary with options and not be reported precisely.
Very interesting and thorough post. The portion I've quoted above relating to the payload/door post sticker question is at the heart of the payload number question. If payload as shown on the sticker is as generic as the excerpt from your post suggests then, for example, a 2017 F250 Lariat diesel Crew Cab should have the same payload rating as a 2017 F250 Platinum Crew Cab diesel despite the different levels of standard equipment. (both would have AC standard)

I wonder if we have enough examples of similar makes and models to make a comparison. One data point: My 2017 F250 Platinum diesel Crew Cab has a payload listed at 2160lbs. Anyone with a 2017 F250 diesel Lariat?
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:34 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by mikeinca View Post
Very interesting and thorough post. The portion I've quoted above relating to the payload/door post sticker question is at the heart of the payload number question. If payload as shown on the sticker is as generic as the excerpt from your post suggests then, for example, a 2017 F250 Lariat diesel Crew Cab should have the same payload rating as a 2017 F250 Platinum Crew Cab diesel despite the different levels of standard equipment. (both would have AC standard)



I wonder if we have enough examples of similar makes and models to make a comparison. One data point: My 2017 F250 Platinum diesel Crew Cab has a payload listed at 2160lbs. Anyone with a 2017 F250 diesel Lariat?


Not necessarily true, seats are different, sunroof may or my not be different, running boards etc. those ll affect payload
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:47 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
So...they do weigh the vehicle as it leaves the assembly line?
I can't find any verification of that being done.🤔

Bob
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Hi

At least on the Ford trucks they do *something* that totals up all of what's there. I spend some time on the lot looking at payload stickers. Every one was different unless the vehicles had exactly the same options on them.

If I had to guess, they have a really *good* database of what weights what. They *know* what options went on this or that vehicle. The label printing machine gets fed off of that data.

No idea of what other outfits do. I only did the walk around / look around at the Ford dealers. I *was* headed off to buy this or that based on internet data. Fortunately a couple threads suggested "check the sticker".

Bob
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Old 08-04-2020, 06:50 AM   #72
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Geez...I am sick of this whole topic. Everything that ever could have been said about it is in a post somewhere on the forum!!! Why not talk about hitches instead? Wait, that is more than covered as well....
Larry
I just saw this thread. I only had to read three posts. I agree with wholeheartedly. I also agree with Roberts statement above this.
Just curious, is there a towing forum for all things towing?
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:34 AM   #73
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Hi

At least on the Ford trucks they do *something* that totals up all of what's there. I spend some time on the lot looking at payload stickers. Every one was different unless the vehicles had exactly the same options on them.

If I had to guess, they have a really *good* database of what weights what. They *know* what options went on this or that vehicle. The label printing machine gets fed off of that data.

No idea of what other outfits do. I only did the walk around / look around at the Ford dealers. I *was* headed off to buy this or that based on internet data. Fortunately a couple threads suggested "check the sticker".

Bob
It is in the interests of manufacturers who rely on capacity labels to sell vehicles to maximize the label figure, but there isn’t a requirement that they account for every option. From the RAM factory info, they had a number of standard consists, eg those who purchase option A typically purchase option B. It is a database, just not with every potential combo in it. And there doesn’t appear to be any requirement that the manufacturer actually weigh the finished vehicle.

Other manufacturers who don’t consider a high payload label to be a selling feature (eg not a pickup) can simply leave an allowance for all the options, and put a lower payload label on the vehicle. Cheaper for them. Totally legit. And if you purchase an SUV that was built this way you can weigh your vehicle and often find payload you didn’t know you had.
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Old 08-04-2020, 10:41 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by mikeinca View Post
Very interesting and thorough post. The portion I've quoted above relating to the payload/door post sticker question is at the heart of the payload number question. If payload as shown on the sticker is as generic as the excerpt from your post suggests then, for example, a 2017 F250 Lariat diesel Crew Cab should have the same payload rating as a 2017 F250 Platinum Crew Cab diesel despite the different levels of standard equipment. (both would have AC standard)
The point was that they aren’t required to make the label specific to each vehicle, as was suggested in an earlier post. It is up to the manufacturer. They can certainly work to get it closer, as that reduces the safety margin or allowance that they have to leave in when they calculate payload, and so advertise a higher capacity.
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Old 08-04-2020, 12:02 PM   #75
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I just saw this thread. I only had to read three posts. I agree with wholeheartedly. I also agree with Roberts statement above this.
Just curious, is there a towing forum for all things towing?
Absolutely, and you are in it! Towing, Tow Vehicles, and Hitches.

For those who want to see how this same question played out in 2015, and then in 2017, here you go (proving that nothing is new):

2015 version (BMW X5 Payload):

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f46...ad-142467.html

2017 version (The Great Payload Mystery):

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f23...ry-172793.html

That last one is somewhat complicated by the fact that the OP had a 2000 Suburban, prior to the debut of the 2007 rule about yellow payload stickers.
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Old 08-04-2020, 12:21 PM   #76
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Not necessarily true, seats are different, sunroof may or my not be different, running boards etc. those ll affect payload
That's what I always thought as well. However according to jcl's post, "Curb Weight is defined as "the weight of a motor vehicle with standard equipment; maximum capacity of engine fuel, oil, and coolant; and, if so equipped, air conditioning and additional weight optional engine."

Nothing is mentioned about requiring the weight of options. And that's my point; Are manufacturers simply following the rules as laid out in the standard curb weight definition above for their door jamb stickers or are some also including the weight of options on individual models like we believed they were?

Quote:
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The point was that they aren’t required to make the label specific to each vehicle, as was suggested in an earlier post. It is up to the manufacturer. They can certainly work to get it closer, as that reduces the safety margin or allowance that they have to leave in when they calculate payload, and so advertise a higher capacity.
I get it. They aren't required by law to include options in the published curb weight but some manufacturers may take the weight of options into account anyway. How do we know if they are or aren't?
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Old 08-04-2020, 12:29 PM   #77
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If I had to guess, they have a really *good* database of what weights what. They *know* what options went on this or that vehicle. The label printing machine gets fed off of that data.
They absolutely do have a database of what all the options weigh. I have a copy of the Ford option weights for 2016 and a worksheet that is used for manually calculating payload using those weights for factory and dealer installed options. I referred to it when I was building the spec for my 2017 F250 on the assumption that while there were significant changes for the Super Duty in 2017 that the individual options were still pretty close in terms of weight.

Whether Ford uses this info to automatically inform the payload sticker is another question, although the variation in payload weights you saw on the dealer lot suggests that maybe they do.
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Old 08-04-2020, 12:40 PM   #78
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That's what I always thought as well. However according to jcl's post, "Curb Weight is defined as "the weight of a motor vehicle with standard equipment; maximum capacity of engine fuel, oil, and coolant; and, if so equipped, air conditioning and additional weight optional engine."

Nothing is mentioned about requiring the weight of options. And that's my point; Are manufacturers simply following the rules as laid out in the standard curb weight definition above for their door jamb stickers or are some also including the weight of options on specific models like we believed they were?



I get it. They aren't required by law to include options in the published curb weight but maybe some manufacturers do take the weight of options into account anyway. How do we know if they are or aren't?
They have to take it into account, because they can't overstate payload, but they don't have to show their work. There are (at least) three scenarios.

1) Manufacturer A doesn't care much about the payload number, they don't consider it a selling feature. They know that the maximum weight of potential options is X. They take GVWR, less legal curb weight, less X, and call that payload for the label. It is legal. It isn't optimized. It is more common on vehicles other than pickups, where people care more about payload numbers and even debate them on line. It was the case on my SUVs.

2) Manufacturer B has a long list of available options, with innumerable combinations. It is hard to consider all of them as likely to be sold together given the combinations and permutations, so they come up with an estimate of what gets sold together (starting with trim packages, which aren't there just for pricing but also for manufacturing ease). They calculate the weight of the common packages and also of frequently ordered combinations of options, and now just a few options are left unknown, weighing Y. They take GVWR, less curb weight of a common configuration (legal curb weight plus some options), less Y, and call that payload. It is closer than manufacturer A to measured payload. Pickup manufacturers seem to fall into this camp. A RAM factory tech said this is how they do it, but that was a few years ago. Maybe they changed, IDK.

3) Manufacturer C wants to be precise. They calculate the weight of every custom option, and put that into the design weight calculation. Every payload label is different. They have to leave a tolerance (call it Z) for manufacturing variance, or they can choose to weigh each vehicle to manage those variations. Up to them. They are not required by law to weigh the vehicle, or even to do it all this way, but some may choose to.

The point is, there is far too much navel gazing about what a payload label says. It is a manufacturer's estimate. It may be close. It can't be over, legally. But it is only there for comparison shopping. The real payload is determined once you go over the weigh scales.
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Old 08-04-2020, 12:42 PM   #79
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I get it. They aren't required by law to include options in the published curb weight but manufacturers may take the weight of options into account anyway. How do we know if they are or aren't?
I guess I'm wondering why bother? For just $12 at a CAT scale you get the weight of both axles and you will have more complete and better information. Then by comparing the numbers to the front an rear axle limits and with max combined limits you can do an excellent job of towing and load planning and you needn't worry about decoding the elusive payload.
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Old 08-04-2020, 01:16 PM   #80
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So...they do weigh the vehicle as it leaves the assembly line? 🇺🇸
I doubt it, but they will have a design target weight. In other words if you have the Platinum edition, that model will have a different payload than the Double Cab edition.

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