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Old 08-02-2020, 12:10 PM   #41
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To clarify, I will make the point another way. For a vehicle designed for towing, payload is a number that is most useful when not towing because it addresses issues that are most relevant when not towing including registration and licensing, suspension travel, passenger comfort and passenger experience. When buying a vehicle for non-commercial towing, payload should be used as a go by to provide an (imprecise) indication of capacity relative to other possible choices but not in itself an effective limit imposed to address a safety, stability or technical issue while towing. Instead, when towing for recreation, the relevant limits are towing capacity (stability, safety, technical capability), vehicle and trailer combined weight (technical performance), and axle load limits (safety, stability and technical capability).
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Old 08-02-2020, 12:38 PM   #42
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GCVW - Another weight that is rarely addressed: GCVW (Trailer + TV). I believe this is a bit elusive in my F250 situation. Gross Vehicle Weight = 10,000 lbs, max tow = 12,300 lbs. Gross Combined Vehicle Weight = 19,250. Basic math indicates you should be able to combine the max tow and max truck for your GCVW? I have asked this question to Ford and YOUTUBE channel “TFL Trucks” and they do not know the answer.

Axle weights - Everyone agrees that axle weights are important and tire ratings (on 1/2 tons since, 3/4 tons come with E rated or better tires).
GCVWR can be the sum of the tow vehicle GVWR and the trailer GVWR, and sometimes is, but not if the tow vehicle manufacturer specifies otherwise. In the absence of a manufacturer-declared tow vehicle GCVWR, the legal GCVWR is the sum of the two GVWRs. See the legislation. What happens when a tow vehicle manufacturer decides that you can carry x (up to the tow vehicle GVWR) and tow y (up to the trailer tow rating) but that you can not do them both at the same time, usually for powertrain design limits, is that they apply a GCVWR to specifically address that the two are not purely cumulative.

It is very telling that the specific groups you asked did not know this. That suggests you should take their other towing pronouncements with a grain of salt.

Tire ratings are important for all vehicles, not just half tons. What happens when you exceed the tire rating for a heavy truck can be more catastrophic than when a light vehicle tire fails.
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Old 08-02-2020, 12:47 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by superChop View Post
YOUTube channel, “Big Truck, Big RV” has recently provided his expert opinion - Trailers at about 6,000 lbs, owners should start looking at 3/4 tons as TV’s.
What expertise does he have? I haven't seen him say anything about his training or experience. He seems to have a very simple perspective: "I don't care about the numbers, I want a bigger truck."

I agree with your pointing out that newbies should learn about this stuff. And if you want a bigger safety margin or just want a big truck, awesome. Go for it. But gross generalizations are helpful only for someone who does not want to go through the exercise of figuring this stuff out.
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Old 08-02-2020, 01:38 PM   #44
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Hi
1) Dig a bit to find out what is or is not already included *before* the payload number is arrived at. Are passengers already in the vehicle? How about fuel? Sure there are supposedly "standards" for this sort of thing. Better to read the fine print on *your* vehicle / sticker.

b
The standard that the major auto makers agreed to a few years back is the payload includes only a full Gas tank and options the vehicle left the factory with.
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Old 08-02-2020, 02:01 PM   #45
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The standard that the major auto makers agreed to a few years back is the payload includes only a full Gas tank and options the vehicle left the factory with.
Yes...but are those 'options' included on the sticker?

I still don't believe they weigh the vehicles as they come off the line.

And what about dealer added options?

Bob
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Old 08-02-2020, 03:08 PM   #46
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Yes...but are those 'options' included on the sticker?

I still don't believe they weigh the vehicles as they come off the line.

And what about dealer added options?

Bob
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Dealer added options are easy, they are not included or allowed for. Federal safety standards cover the original manufacturer, not anyone who may touch the vehicle later, with an allowance for custom body manufacturers who can apply for a new certification and label.

For factory options, the manufacture has a few choices. They can calculate the weight of every custom vehicle order, and use that figure. I suspect some do that.

Or, they can leave sufficient headroom for all possible options, and put that resulting payload on the required label, as my last tow vehicle manufacturer did. If one weighed the vehicle, and compared it to the GVW rating (no cargo, no driver or passengers, full fuel and liquids) any vehicle with less than a full complement of options actually had more available payload than the label stated. That is legal. That manufacturer didn't consider a higher payload to be a marketing feature, so printed one label and used one figure in all of their literature.

Or, they can calculate a likely vehicle consist, and use that for the label. That was information previously posted here from a RAM factory source, when a new purchaser asked the factory techs why two trucks had the same payload label but different options on the lot, and wanted to know how could that be. The factory tech responded that the RAM factory label printing machine wasn't interfaced to the order computer, so they couldn't calculate each one. They used what they called a "typical consist" to come up with a theoretical weight, and put that on the label. They had a number of typical consists, but those didn't represent all the possible vehicle configurations.

GVWR is a federal (FMVSS, MVSA in Canada) mandated term, with a clear definition. Payload isn't, just like tow rating isn't. So, for those figures, manufacturers can do things like assume a 150 lb passenger, or arbitrarily use a lower capacity payload number for convenience, etc.

I wouldn't spend a lot of time reading the fine print. The only numbers that matter are what the official GVWR is since that is a precisely defined term (as are axle and tire ratings), and what the scale shows in practice. The difference is your usable capacity. Payload is pretty meaningless as a term.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:17 PM   #47
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What would/could happen if the payload (tongue weight and cargo)is over by 300lbs? Will my tires explode? How will this affect the trucks axles? Is it illegal?

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Old 08-02-2020, 09:17 PM   #48
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When towing (and often even when not) payload is more of a construct negotiated by a marketing team. So if you are reasonably close to payload limit as in your example, look instead at the individual axle limits as they are not generally derived by a marketing team and instead most often provide an objective technical limit. If you are below each axle limit and you are below combined vehicle and trailer max limit , you are most likely in great shape. If you are still concerned, send me your specifics and we can talk more.
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Old 08-03-2020, 05:25 AM   #49
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Just a petty point. There are not many 150 pound drivers or passengers in corpulent America. There are five passenger cars with a 800 pound payload. So four typical today 200 pound guys have to leave their fifth buddy and the luggage at home......
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Old 08-03-2020, 05:36 AM   #50
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Dealer added options are easy, they are not included or allowed for. Federal safety standards cover the original manufacturer, not anyone who may touch the vehicle later, with an allowance for custom body manufacturers who can apply for a new certification and label.

For factory options, the manufacture has a few choices. They can calculate the weight of every custom vehicle order, and use that figure. I suspect some do that.

Or, they can leave sufficient headroom for all possible options, and put that resulting payload on the required label, as my last tow vehicle manufacturer did. If one weighed the vehicle, and compared it to the GVW rating (no cargo, no driver or passengers, full fuel and liquids) any vehicle with less than a full complement of options actually had more available payload than the label stated. That is legal. That manufacturer didn't consider a higher payload to be a marketing feature, so printed one label and used one figure in all of their literature.

Or, they can calculate a likely vehicle consist, and use that for the label. That was information previously posted here from a RAM factory source, when a new purchaser asked the factory techs why two trucks had the same payload label but different options on the lot, and wanted to know how could that be. The factory tech responded that the RAM factory label printing machine wasn't interfaced to the order computer, so they couldn't calculate each one. They used what they called a "typical consist" to come up with a theoretical weight, and put that on the label. They had a number of typical consists, but those didn't represent all the possible vehicle configurations.

GVWR is a federal (FMVSS, MVSA in Canada) mandated term, with a clear definition. Payload isn't, just like tow rating isn't. So, for those figures, manufacturers can do things like assume a 150 lb passenger, or arbitrarily use a lower capacity payload number for convenience, etc.

I wouldn't spend a lot of time reading the fine print. The only numbers that matter are what the official GVWR is since that is a precisely defined term (as are axle and tire ratings), and what the scale shows in practice. The difference is your usable capacity. Payload is pretty meaningless as a term.
Thank you...

Just as I thought...accurate stated payload is just a guess.🤔

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Old 08-03-2020, 07:46 AM   #51
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The standard that the major auto makers agreed to a few years back is the payload includes only a full Gas tank and options the vehicle left the factory with.
Hi

The key point there being "a few years back". Since people still seem to be out shopping for trucks made in the 1990's it's best not to *assume*.

The advantage of the sticker (at least by the modern standard) is that it includes *all* the options that were on the vehicle when it rolled off the end of the production line. Totaling up those weights and keeping track as changes are made mid-stream production .... not easy unless you are the manufacturer.

Anything that's added *after* the end of the production line (by the previous owner, the dealer, you, your dog ....) obviously isn't in that sticker number. You need to add that stuff up yourself.

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Old 08-03-2020, 07:56 AM   #52
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Hi

The key point there being "a few years back". Since people still seem to be out shopping for trucks made in the 1990's it's best not to *assume*.

The advantage of the sticker (at least by the modern standard) is that it includes *all* the options that were on the vehicle when it rolled off the end of the production line. Totaling up those weights and keeping track as changes are made mid-stream production .... not easy unless you are the manufacturer.

Anything that's added *after* the end of the production line (by the previous owner, the dealer, you, your dog ....) obviously isn't in that sticker number. You need to add that stuff up yourself.

Bob
So...they do weigh the vehicle as it leaves the assembly line?
I can't find any verification of that being done.🤔

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Old 08-03-2020, 08:12 AM   #53
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I am still finding this discussion distressing, although I could ignore it, with all that is going on, I have nothing better to do....Payload is not a number that means if you are 10 lbs under you are safe and if you are 10 lbs over you are unsafe. That is the problem in having a focus on a specific number that has no real science and testing behind it. In my own situation, it was clear to me that with a 25fb, a Propride hitch, a hard tonneau, a bed full of stuff and a 1/2 ton truck that I was at my limit. And, I wanted a real topper, a bigger gas tank, more power, better brakes. The upgrade to a 3/4 ton was a simple decision. I just did not want to worry at all about what was in the bed. It is enough of a problem trying to make sure my wife does not turn on too many AC appliances without having to upgrade to a 50-amp trailer.
Payload as a guideline seems pretty simple to me; it means not putting a square peg in a round hole.
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:06 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Yes...but are those 'options' included on the sticker?

I still don't believe they weigh the vehicles as they come off the line.

And what about dealer added options?

Bob
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Interesting question. On my 2015 Tundra there was an additional yellow sticker in the door jamb that said something to the effect that stated payload capacity “....must be reduced by xxx lbs due to additional options installed”. I didn’t buy the truck new so I have no idea what the “additional option” could have been. Someone thought it important to add that sticker.

I doubt that anyone weighs all the passengers, cargo and tongue weight going into/onto their vehicle. Stated payload gives you a general idea. Scale weights compared to GVWR, GAWR’s and GCWR are the actual measurements to show where you stand. That and your towing experience with the rig is what you have to go on.
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:15 AM   #55
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What would/could happen if the payload (tongue weight and cargo)is over by 300lbs? Will my tires explode? How will this affect the trucks axles? Is it illegal?

Gary
I think being overweight by 300 lbs mean you don’t have room to add a lot more toys. ��

You can be over GVWR but not over GAWR’s (axle ratings) or tire load ratings (properly inflated). I’m sure there’s design margin built into those numbers as well. But this (Airstreaming) is supposed to be fun. Why push the limits and worry about it?
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:45 AM   #56
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So...they do weigh the vehicle as it leaves the assembly line?

I can't find any verification of that being done.



Bob



Manufacturers (#Iwork@GM) do weigh trucks when building pre-production units. This is to verify and certify the weights of the varying models.
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:50 AM   #57
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Payload is an arbitrary number. Looks at axle weight is what matters. It's all marketing BS. I've been in this game long enough to know.

Here's a conversation I once had:
me. It appears that the bearings are non replaceable. We can give you bearings that last a lifetime.
Answer: Not that is not acceptable. It needs to fail at 150k.

You guys really have no idea what really goes on inside the design meetings with automotive. You're living in a dream world.
I think Bob and Bigfoot are on the right track.

Payload is a consideration and a marketing and or licencing label.

To Start you need to weight your "Rig" loaded or "ready for camping".
Then take those "real world numbers" and look at your Truck/Car axle ratings, and check for WD back on the front axle, the actual Axle weights compared to ratings.

And if your slightly high, look at trimming the fat, like was said maybe a smaller socket set, maybe no geni. Maybe bikes on trailer, maybe extra LP tank on trailer or leave at home..........until you have actual numbers you don't know

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Old 08-03-2020, 09:55 AM   #58
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There’s definitely nothing arbitrary about payload. It’s the GVWR minus the curb weight.

Most vehicles have a GVWR that is set at a weight the vehicle’s suspension and brakes can handle. One of the rare exceptions to this is 2500/250 series trucks which are limited to 10k GVWR to avoid higher registration costs for commercial users. Of course GM had to go be different this year so they could advertise a higher payload rating than everyone else.
Adv. You just answered your own question regarding it being a marketing point. "Except some 2500 that change the number for registration"

Forget payload and consider axle rating and GVWR
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:57 AM   #59
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Most DOT folks look at axle ratings and tire ratings. The tire ratings for any axle must exceed the axle rating.

The limits to my Ram 2500HD Cummins are in the tires and axles since all the steel springs were replaced with a Kelderman self leveling air bag suspension with higher ratings than the removed steel parts.

I have used my two sets of four wheel scales and know the loading on each tire and thus each axle and the vehicle as a whole. Knowledge is power to make decision based upon facts rather than wishful thinking.
Switz. ✓

Wheel scales...please go on....
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Old 08-03-2020, 10:09 AM   #60
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Hi

CAT scale numbers are great, but .....

Here I am, a new kid at this, shopping for my first real tow vehicle. I'm at the dealer's lot trying to decide on this one vs that one vs ordering one in. I ask him? Can I put a WD hitch on each one and fully load it with all my camping gear and run it over to the CAT scale .... His reply sees to involve the general manager being on vacation in Indonesia outside cell coverage ...

Keep in mind that since I don't have the TV, I also don't have the trailer yet. I need to get both before the trailer comes home. I'd need to drive each truck 4 hours each way to the RV dealer to "borrow" the (unlicensed as yet) trailer to haul it to the CAT scale. Hmmmm...

I have no problem with weighing things *after* they are in yours. That's just common sense. However, once the new trailer and new TV are yours, it's a bit late to be wondering "is this TV big enough?" .....

Bob
Good points Uncle Bob

But based on the payload "projected" number they would not sell Any 1500 trucks to tow a 7900lb trailer, and every newbie would start at a 2500 Only?

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