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Old 07-31-2020, 02:40 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by lsbrodsky View Post
Geez...I am sick of this whole topic. Everything that ever could have been said about it is in a post somewhere on the forum!!! Why not talk about hitches instead? Wait, that is more than covered as well....
Larry
It keeps coming back because most people never take the time to understand what the OEM is really trying to tell people. For towing, Bob has the right attitude. It should be taken with a grain of salt and used as a guideline only. The reason is because payload is not determined using an industry set of standard tests and it generally does not address structural or stability limits, instead it addresses passenger experience and comfort (though there are always the exceptions).

The better numbers are as mentioned, specific axle limits and Combined towing limits.

So to the OP's point. For newbies, payload is guidance that will give you a rough idea of how much gear one can take in the vehicle. From a towing safety and stability perspective one wants to load the vehicle to the point the rear axle scale weight after WD is applied is near max, and only put gear in the trailer if the vehicle is out of physical room or the rear axle is at max.
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdvToaster View Post
How old is your Suburban? I haven’t seen a vehicle without a published payload in more than 30 years.
2006 2500 8.1L..."the last Burb".... 9680lb worth of axles and an 8600 GVWR, a bit of wiggle room.

Bob
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Old 07-31-2020, 03:39 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by superChop View Post
...
I have met many folks at RV Parks around the country that do not know about or understand payload. Here is a simple math example on calculating payload:
* 1000 lbs - Tongue Weight, including propane, batteries, etc.
* 300 lbs - Driver & Passengers
* 200 lbs - Bed topper (tonneau cover @ about 100 lbs)
* 400 lbs - Cargo in bed or back seat = protective rubber bed mat, tools, BBQ, kayaks, bikes, chairs, levelers, x chocks, etc.
* Total = 1900 lbs
....
Keep in mind that curb weight includes 150 lbs for driver - so driver + passenger(s) should deduct 150 lbs from their combined wts. - & Curbwt. also includes a full tank of fuel & all other fluids (oil, coolant, Diesel blue/green, etc.) - all of which are a worldwide industry standard for decades & as such works for most Classic TVs too.

Payload is GVWR total capacity - less curb weight, so you don't want to double count driver & fluids.

I agree with others that there is more than just payload to consider - including the GVWR, Combined GVWR (TV + TT), Axle weights at both ends & TT, HW, etc. - as others have mentioned.

Payload is important for what you carry in the TV - after deducting the HW - vs. loading stuff in the trailer or at racks on the TT bumper &/or A-Frame - which also requires Max. Trailer gross & axle weight calcs & Hitch weight, as well as making sure that anything on &/or in the rear of the trailer isn't enough to cause pendulum action worsening potential sway issues.

Cheers!
Tom
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Old 07-31-2020, 04:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
2006 2500 8.1L..."the last Burb".... 9680lb worth of axles and an 8600 GVWR, a bit of wiggle room.

Bob
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Wow, the 8.1. I bet that thing never misses a chance to stop at a gas station!

That’s quite a capacity for an “SUV”. Shame they don’t make 2500s anymore.
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Old 07-31-2020, 05:01 PM   #25
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This is a great thread for newbies. Old heads, like me, enjoy hearing other ideas and innovations. Sure, there are a lot of repeats, but I scan through them to see if I missed something along the way. Us old heads tend to fly by the seat of our pants, but we did not always do that. Sometimes, newbies don't have enough experience to know what they need to know. So we need to restate it for them. I try to put myself in their position and remember how little I knew, 50 years ago, when I towed a 23' Streamline (3600#) with a four door Ambassador station wagon with every thing loaded to the brim. I did that for four years before the tranny smoked. I had added a cooler along the way and I supposed that helped. A melted seal is what finally did it in. Fast forward 50 years and I stilll make mistakes, but they are not as catastrophic as they once were. I don't think I ever saw a payload figure stated on a door post label including my present '07 Duramax 3/4 Ton HD. When I figure payload capacity I look at my auxiliary 80 gal. tank as half full because if it overloads the truck I will be getting lighter as I go along. That is really the only variable I have to deal with all the rest have been settled through the years. My only rule is, except for emergency items: "If we haven't used it in the last two years take it out." The rest is history. I did add a full ride system eleven years ago. They are designed for a a one ton chassis, but they are built like freight train engines. They are beefy. Manufacturers say they do not increase pay load, but in reality they do.
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:20 AM   #26
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Smile Well said Larry,

Quote:
Originally Posted by lsbrodsky View Post
Geez...I am sick of this whole topic. Everything that ever could have been said about it is in a post somewhere on the forum!!! Why not talk about hitches instead? Wait, that is more than covered as well....
Larry
I couldn’t agree more. It’s been discussed thoroughly before. Just look it up
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:29 AM   #27
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So True

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Originally Posted by BayouBiker View Post
It keeps coming back because most people never take the time to understand what the OEM is really trying to tell people. For towing, Bob has the right attitude. It should be taken with a grain of salt and used as a guideline only. The reason is because payload is not determined using an industry set of standard tests and it generally does not address structural or stability limits, instead it addresses passenger experience and comfort (though there are always the exceptions).

The better numbers are as mentioned, specific axle limits and Combined towing limits.

So to the OP's point. For newbies, payload is guidance that will give you a rough idea of how much gear one can take in the vehicle. From a towing safety and stability perspective one wants to load the vehicle to the point the rear axle scale weight after WD is applied is near max, and only put gear in the trailer if the vehicle is out of physical room or the rear axle is at max.
Brian
You are 100% correct and you always have great advice that I love reading but to Larry’s point it’s been covered completely, then it turns into an argument (above my head) just like the Canadian guy who was telling you his Mercedes SUV is a better tow vehicle than a truck of any size
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:42 AM   #28
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^
The experienced bells ring...let the newbies search not ask.

POI...searching for previous answers may not apply, things change.

Plus I joined just because I wanted answers from AS users with more experience the I...that IS the point.

If it bothers you....Take a NAP.



Bob
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snip QUOTE......"Wow, the 8.1. I bet that thing never misses a chance to stop at a gas station!"

Not all that bad 10-13 @ 62-65mpg/1800rpm, PCM set for towing,(not tow/haul mode), with a 32g tank, mpg has never been a top priority for our TV.
Yes, it is a bummer that there is no 2500 Burb...but then again how many P/U's come with P tires, the new Burb does.
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:45 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Peterf View Post
Not to beat the dead horse...F150 payload of 2060# gets maxed out and over by 2-300# quickly when on the road with kayaks, racks, compressor, generator, extra fuel and water. TV handles loaded 25 FC no problem East to west and back. I’m hoping to not have to get into a F250 and while shopping for a new truck see that you can get a suspension that ups the payload to 2700#. That would do the trick. Any comment? Thanks,
Peter
Your F150 with a payload of 2000lbs is close to what you’d see on an F250 diesel. Sure 2700 lb payload would “do the trick”. Why wouldn’t it? As long as you have the power to tow, which usually isn’t an issue.

Of course when you go to the scales, you’re comparing against GVWR which for a given truck/configuration increases with payload anyway.
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Old 08-01-2020, 07:00 AM   #30
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From a towing safety and stability perspective one wants to load the vehicle to the point the rear axle scale weight after WD is applied is near max.
Hey Brian: Can you clarify this statement please? I would have to reduce WD to get rear axle to near max and thus lighten the front axle. I am not seeing how a lighter front axle would be better for stability. Seems like I would have less steering input in cross winds or truck buffeting by and understeer in corners.
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Old 08-01-2020, 07:37 AM   #31
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Hi

CAT scale numbers are great, but .....

Here I am, a new kid at this, shopping for my first real tow vehicle. I'm at the dealer's lot trying to decide on this one vs that one vs ordering one in. I ask him? Can I put a WD hitch on each one and fully load it with all my camping gear and run it over to the CAT scale .... His reply sees to involve the general manager being on vacation in Indonesia outside cell coverage ...

Keep in mind that since I don't have the TV, I also don't have the trailer yet. I need to get both before the trailer comes home. I'd need to drive each truck 4 hours each way to the RV dealer to "borrow" the (unlicensed as yet) trailer to haul it to the CAT scale. Hmmmm...

I have no problem with weighing things *after* they are in yours. That's just common sense. However, once the new trailer and new TV are yours, it's a bit late to be wondering "is this TV big enough?" .....

Bob
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Old 08-01-2020, 07:51 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by DCPAS View Post
Hey Brian: Can you clarify this statement please? I would have to reduce WD to get rear axle to near max and thus lighten the front axle. I am not seeing how a lighter front axle would be better for stability. Seems like I would have less steering input in cross winds or truck buffeting by and understeer in corners.
Sure, I did not mean to suggest manipulating WD to raise load on the rear axle. I meant one should load up the vehicle with gear intended and needed that might otherwise end up in the trailer. It is more stable to max the vehicle and keep the trailer as light as possible. Doing so will improve steering response, suspension performance, cornering and sway stability. All the most important towing factors.

So load up, apply WD and head to the scales. If rear axle is well under weight and the vehicle has more cargo space available, consider moving more gear to the vehicle.

You are spot on that WD set-up should not be compromised to increase rear axle load. Thanks for pointing that out.
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:05 AM   #33
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Hi

CAT scale numbers are great, but .....

Bob
Bob: There is plenty of information out there on trailer weights, actual tongue weights, and examples of other folks' weighs to figure out how much tow vehicle you need. Then it is best to weigh to dial in your WD.

We bought our truck first, but we knew we were getting at most a 25 ft trailer. We also knew what needed to be in the truck (people, dogs, and generator).
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Old 08-01-2020, 08:38 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uncle_bob View Post
Hi

CAT scale numbers are great, but .....

Here I am, a new kid at this, shopping for my first real tow vehicle. I'm at the dealer's lot trying to decide on this one vs that one vs ordering one in. I ask him? Can I put a WD hitch on each one and fully load it with all my camping gear and run it over to the CAT scale .... His reply sees to involve the general manager being on vacation in Indonesia outside cell coverage ...

Keep in mind that since I don't have the TV, I also don't have the trailer yet. I need to get both before the trailer comes home. I'd need to drive each truck 4 hours each way to the RV dealer to "borrow" the (unlicensed as yet) trailer to haul it to the CAT scale. Hmmmm...

I have no problem with weighing things *after* they are in yours. That's just common sense. However, once the new trailer and new TV are yours, it's a bit late to be wondering "is this TV big enough?" .....

Bob
If I were buying a new truck I'd for sure make a stop at the scale while test driving it just to see how much payload it really has. Just sayin...
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Old 08-01-2020, 02:53 PM   #35
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Interesting thread for someone new to this, even if there is more out there. My Grand Cherokee has a 7200 lb towing capacity with 720 lb tongue weight, yet the door sticker shows a max occupant/cargo weight of 1050 lb. This limits things considerable. Interesting and adding confusion, the published payload for this vehicle is 1790 lbs.
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Old 08-01-2020, 05:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by AdvToaster View Post
There’s definitely nothing arbitrary about payload. It’s the GVWR minus the curb weight.
I see a difference between 1500 lbs of rocks in the bed and 1500 pounds of gear distributed over the front, rear, and trailer axles with a WD hitch.
If payload was cast in stone (no pun intended) and you loaded your truck with the rocks, then hit a bump, the axles would snap off.

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I read where some people disparage RAM trucks and call them Fiats! In all fairness, that perspective would require you to call your Airstream a THOR!
Okay!
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Old 08-01-2020, 05:36 PM   #37
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No. The payload is almost always lower than the GVWR minus the curb weight. The payload is a different number. The payload is never higher that the GVWR minus the curb weight.
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Old 08-01-2020, 05:52 PM   #38
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Here are the "official" numbers for our 2019 Nissan NV 3500:

Curb 6,180 Lbs.
Gross weight 9,900 Lbs.
Payload 3,720 Lbs.
Maximum towing capacity 9,400 Lbs.

We also took out the rear seating (10 seats), which should increase our payload by about 600 lbs. Plan on taking it to the CAT scales in the next week or so to see how our actual weights are looking.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:44 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by DCPAS View Post
Bob: There is plenty of information out there on trailer weights, actual tongue weights, and examples of other folks' weighs to figure out how much tow vehicle you need. Then it is best to weigh to dial in your WD.

We bought our truck first, but we knew we were getting at most a 25 ft trailer. We also knew what needed to be in the truck (people, dogs, and generator).
Hi

Indeed there are plenty of numbers out there. Roughly 90% of what you see on the internet is flat wrong or not applicable in the real world ( = after I changed out the following 22 parts on the truck ....). Sorting that all out as a new kid ... yikes ....

Bob
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Old 08-02-2020, 10:33 AM   #40
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This is a wrap!

This is OP - we can close this thread down. I merely wanted to point out to NEWBIES that max tow is probably the least important number to obtain on a new TV, regardless of what you are towing.

Thank all you veteran campers for addressing this thread (E.g. Uncle Bob, Bayou biker, Mollysdad, etc)!

IMHO - newbies do not want to read about pre-DEF diesels and questionable tongue weights on AS’s. They need to understand that 1/2 tons are challenged for most trailers at 25’ or more. YOUTube channel, “Big Truck, Big RV” has recently provided his expert opinion - Trailers at about 6,000 lbs, owners should start looking at 3/4 tons as TV’s.

You veterans talk about consider ALL the weights. Some place the priority different than others, but reason for the post was to highlight payload.

GCVW - Another weight that is rarely addressed: GCVW (Trailer + TV). I believe this is a bit elusive in my F250 situation. Gross Vehicle Weight = 10,000 lbs, max tow = 12,300 lbs. Gross Combined Vehicle Weight = 19,250. Basic math indicates you should be able to combine the max tow and max truck for your GCVW? I have asked this question to Ford and YOUTUBE channel “TFL Trucks” and they do not know the answer.

Axle weights - Everyone agrees that axle weights are important and tire ratings (on 1/2 tons since, 3/4 tons come with E rated or better tires).

My final comment is - when a newbie asks for advice, I assume they expect the FORUM to provide answers that provide a “safe” towing situation. An exaggeration, but I often read stories about how I can tow my 30’ AS with a TV with minimal OEM towing specs and often exceed one of these weights (e.g. 1/2 T pickup, SUV’s, etc.); Payload and GCVW.

As I mentioned in original post - I find many folks at RV parks new to towing trailers that only focus on the TV’s max towing weight. These folks often migrate to our camper to view our vintage AS, and then ask some questions about towing, because a lot of them think our 26’ AS should/could be towed by a 1/2 T pickup, and are curious why we selected a 3/4T.

IF any of you see our AS, named Gracie at a Rally, or Caravan, please stop by and say hello!
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