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Old 05-13-2021, 09:34 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by GCinSC2 View Post
Looking forward to your review after getting the discs.
Oh, we already have them and they are amazing.

However, they will be replacing them with Dexter as our current ones will not work on the newer Dexter axle.
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Old 05-14-2021, 04:34 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Merlintiaga View Post
there is a huge mis-understanding of the role of brake system and stopping distance. The only contact between the vehicle (or trailer) and the road is the tires. In a properly adjusted and tuned braking system, the tires determine the stopping distance, not the type of brake pad, rotor, drum, or even drum vs. disk. Under emergency braking, the tire should be "skid pending" (meaning about to begin skidding). It doesn't matter how the tire gets to that condition. Whether by disk, drum, hydraulic, pneumatic, or cable, it doesn't matter. The only thing slowing the vehicle is the force the tire is putting on the road. I agree that some systems are easier to adjust, but the claim by the disk brake conversion kit company that the stopping distance is shorter versus drums brakes is just hogwash. If the brakes are adjusted properly, stooping is limited by the tire/road interface. Anything else is just a sales pitch. I know this is going to set some off on a tangent. I'm not saying that the overall performance of disc brakes isn't better, it clearly is which is why performance cars have disc brakes on all four corners. They can shed more heat (energy) than drum brakes so they tend to be better in repetitive braking, but to say that they stop faster, is simply not true and ignoring the fact that tire friction is the limiting factor in slowing a car (assuming that the brakes can indeed lock the wheel).

Don't buy this? Condsider this then: do a brake test in the snow. Now change to high performance brake pads and rotors. Do the same test in the snow. Did your car stop faster? Of course not. Why? The limiting condition is the friction between tire and the road. It always is the limiting factor, snow, wet, or dry.

take away: buy good trailer tires and properly adjust your brake gain on the TV so the brake system on the trailer operates properly
Here is another a link to a post on this one on this forum, showing dramatic improvement in stopping time/distance.

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f43...ss-177345.html

quoting date from the link:

"2002 Classic 30 Slideout, GVWR 9100#

OEM 12x2 drum brakes, properly adjusted
25mph to 0mph - 12 seconds
45 mph to 0 mph - 30 seconds

Kodiak integral rotor disc brakes with Carlisle Hydrastar 1600 psi actuator
25mph to 0 mph - 6 seconds
45mph to 0mph - 11 seconds"


Quoting the above post:

"claim by the disk brake conversion kit company that the stopping distance is shorter versus drums brakes is just hogwash"

This "hogwash" claim ignores the vast amount of tests/data by individuals and independent organizations. I invite you to post links to tests/data supporting your "hogwash" claim that disc brakes provide provide no improvement in stopping distance.
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Old 05-14-2021, 04:50 PM   #43
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I’m wondering if the drum brakes are really up to the task of locking up all 4 wheels on a larger airstream.

Maximum breaking occurs just before the tires lockup and skid. If you can’t reach that point with drums then the disk brakes would be an improvement.

I know that I can lock all 4 wheels on my little airstream at any speed, but my 23’ vintage trailer has 12” drums, the same brakes as the big trailers.
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Old 05-14-2021, 05:11 PM   #44
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The purpose of brakes is to, through applying a friction force, convert the kinetic energy of the trailer/vehicle to thermal energy.

When you lock your tires you are relying on the tires, skidding along, to convert the kinetic energy to thermal energy.

Disc brakes are far superior at dissipating heat and converting kinetic energy to thermal energy. Thus stopping a vehicle quicker.

Here is a link that, at a high level, describes the process:

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Braking
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Old 05-14-2021, 05:11 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by labans View Post
Another great discussion concerning getting Airstream into the modern world, the 21st Century.
You will hard pressed to find any new vehicle midsize and larger that does not have 4 wheel disc brakes. Crappy little cars like Hyundai and Kia still use them but only in the rear.
FYI my 9 year old crappy little Hyundai has discs on all wheels.

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Old 05-14-2021, 05:29 PM   #46
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My 21 year old VW Beetle has discs all around.

I’ll have another .02$ tomorrow just enjoying LOW humidity on the back porch right now.
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Old 05-14-2021, 05:31 PM   #47
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The first generation Tundra had rear drums. The second generation (2007) had disc all around.
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Old 05-14-2021, 06:33 PM   #48
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Can someone explain how taking off brakes that can lock the wheels instantly (drums) and replacing them with different brakes that can also lock the wheels instantly (disks) is an improvement?
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Old 05-14-2021, 06:46 PM   #49
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Can someone explain how taking off brakes that can lock the wheels instantly (drums) and replacing them with different brakes that can also lock the wheels instantly (disks) is an improvement?
I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this. If my controller is set too high the trailer brakes will lock every time I apply the brakes, so the drums are more than capable.

If there is an advantage, my guess that it's not in the stopping power for normal driving but rather the ability to continue stopping on a long down grade without overheating or fading. Of course, that's what downshifting is for.
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Old 05-14-2021, 07:11 PM   #50
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I would love to have disc brakes on my trailer. I am confident they would stop better (even at 8.5 on my gain control braking is more of a suggestion).

But alas - you have to choose in life where all the dollars go. Mine went into lithium and solar.
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Old 05-14-2021, 07:19 PM   #51
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If disc breaks stop better than drum brakes, why do the cars with disc brakes keep running into the back of the airstreams with drum brakes???
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Old 05-14-2021, 07:30 PM   #52
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Good Evening Everyone,

This evening I was looking thru a couple of the "can I tow this trailer with this vehicle" threads. In all the comments/suggestion, one item that I rarely find mentioned is the importance and safety of Disc Brakes on the trailer.

Seems to me, anyone towing near the tow vehicles max numbers, should consider disc brakes on the trailer.

My $0.02 FWIW.
My previous Sierra had drum brakes on the rear, but yes, my current one if four-wheel discs. I have two old Rovers that are both drum brakes on all four corners: but, they’re not fast vehicles either, so slow speeds, the drums are ‘okay’, but yes, disc are better.

I can’t deny that I’d be happier if my AS had disc brakes instead of drum. But that’s quite a retrofit to undertake. If a dealership would guarantee their work, might be tempting, but I don’t think most dealerships would take on that work, nor would they be the best place to go to. Maybe Colonial, maybe ODM, but I don’t think most of them would be interested in doing such. If JC could do it affordably that then would be worth considering, but I suspect they wouldn’t be the most economical choice. If Dexter themselves would, that might work, but where is it I’d have to take it to have it done!

Swapping 15” wheels for 16”, changing out a water pump or a toilet, adding solar, there are a lot of things you can do to a camper yourself, or have about any RV shop do such for you.

But when you start altering brakes from how the factory built it, you’re taking on a big liability. If my new showerhead leaks, oh well… but if you don’t get the wheel solenoid dialed in, and one side won’t actually brake, and it drives you into another vehicle on the road, that’s a lawsuit that is different than if the drums just weren’t effective enough.

I hope Airstream will start using discs. I hope Dexter can improve their rollout of kits, to where any RV shop would feel comfortable installing such and have no failures.

I’d be more likely to try a swap to discs if I had a 2500, because if the conversion had a failure, I’d feel like I still might could stop it. But if I was on the margin, trying to tow with something small, I don’t think I’d risk a non-factory modification.
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Old 05-15-2021, 02:22 AM   #53
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. . .
I can’t deny that I’d be happier if my AS had disc brakes instead of drum.
. . .
Would disc brakes really stop our little 20' trailers significantly faster, Leslie?

There is only so much "rubber on the road" . . . eh?



Given your tow vehicle's significant rubber on the road, isn't the rig's total combined stopping power adequate?



Look at how dinky the trailer's 2 tires are, relative to the pickup's 4 massive tires [with disc brakes BTW] . . . compare total square inches of "rubber on the road" friction maybe?

Easy to over-think this IMO.

Happy Trails,
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Old 05-15-2021, 04:26 AM   #54
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I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking this. If my controller is set too high the trailer brakes will lock every time I apply the brakes, so the drums are more than capable.

If there is an advantage, my guess that it's not in the stopping power for normal driving but rather the ability to continue stopping on a long down grade without overheating or fading. Of course, that's what downshifting is for.
I totally agree with this line of thinking, manage the drive is the first line of defense, but I also see a few advantages in disc over drum. Disc will perform better or more consistently, when they get hot (or even just warm) and they also perform better when they are wet. Even bicycles for the avg consumer/homeowner are starting to appear with disc brakes, and I’d *like* to have them but many other things I put a higher benefit on for my discretionary spend (ProPride hitch, lithium upgrade, for instance).
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Old 05-15-2021, 05:31 AM   #55
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Please read the article I referenced above.

1) Brakes stop a vehicle by converting kinetic energy to thermal energy.
2) Disc brakes are much much better at converting, and dissipating, thermal energy.
3) Hence they stop the vehicle much faster.
4) It is not about locking the tires. Lock the tires and you are relying on the tire to road friction to convert the kinetic energy to thermal energy.

I invite anyone who says disk brakes on a trailer are not an improvement over drum to simply give a link to a study/data supporting their claim. There have been many done. Every study you will find shows significant improvement from disk brakes on the trailer.

Now whether or not one needs, or thinks they need, the improvement of disc brakes is another topic.
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Old 05-15-2021, 05:32 AM   #56
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Can someone explain how taking off brakes that can lock the wheels instantly (drums) and replacing them with different brakes that can also lock the wheels instantly (disks) is an improvement?
In a hard stop, the drum brakes are heating and fading as the stop progresses, this is not just a mountainside issue……
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Old 05-15-2021, 06:14 AM   #57
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Upfront, I'm a disc brake fan. And it was by accident I admit I had no clue about the disc brakes on my rig when I bought it.

Folks,

Anybody got a collection of older Blue Beret or Airstream Life magazines?

I had one of the above but it's lost now that had an advertisement from Airstream showing disc brakes and results of Airstream testing of stopping distances drum vs disc.

Can anybody take a look at their old copies maybe early 2000's or so and post a copy of this Airstream ad.


As previously posted Al did a conversion and his data was posted with his single trailer before and after stopping distance reduction with discs.

Gary
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Old 05-15-2021, 06:33 AM   #58
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It is certainly true that disk brakes dissipate heat better than drums, and that disk brakes are generally more powerful than drums.

But better brakes will only be an improvement on a vehicle with inadequate brakes to start with.
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Old 05-15-2021, 07:48 AM   #59
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Richard----
"2002 Classic 30 Slideout, GVWR 9100#

OEM 12x2 drum brakes, properly adjusted
25mph to 0mph - 12 seconds
45 mph to 0 mph - 30 seconds

Kodiak integral rotor disc brakes with Carlisle Hydrastar 1600 psi actuator
25mph to 0 mph - 6 seconds
45mph to 0mph - 11 seconds"

Do you not see an advantage from this data? There is more to good braking than just locking up or not locking up and one positive note about disc brakes is that they WILL stop a trailer in a shorter distance regardless .
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Old 05-15-2021, 08:02 AM   #60
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Interesting, but brings up another point: Why are Semi-truck (and trailer) air brakes "normally on" (i.e. without air pressure the brakes are applied) whereas other trailer brakes are "normally off" (without electric power the brakes are not applied & wheels are free to rotate)? From a safety perspective, I would think all trailers with brakes should be "normally on".
Having had both, I agree, but it adds another layer of complexity. First, air brakes are drum brakes. The air, supplied by a compressor which runs as needed, holds the brake shoes away from the drum, while a spring tries to apply the brakes. If there's a failure of the air system, the brakes are applied.
With a semi-tractor the system is big and complex. I think that doesn't translate well to a travel trailer although Mor-Ride is installing disc brakes on large fifth wheels now.
The electrical signal from your controller goes to an onboard compressor that pumps brake fluid to the disc brakes.
If the batteries were not on the tongue, the compressor would fit in the battery box. Maybe some day.

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Richard----
OEM 12x2 drum brakes, properly adjusted
25mph to 0mph - 12 seconds
45 mph to 0 mph - 30 seconds
Where did these numbers come from?
I think I can stop much faster than 12 seconds from 25 mph.
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