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Old 07-14-2015, 08:43 AM   #1
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San Jose , United States
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Hubby and I is disagreement: 2016 23D vs 25FB

Hubby is restoring a '69 is gutted right now. We are realizing now the magnitude of a DIY restoration and know that this could take years to get done properly.

Sooooo...we have decided to bite the bullet and look at getting a new AS.

We have a 2014 touareg TDI/Diesel (tow: 7700, tongue weight 690, CW: 4900, GW 6000? I think?).

I am unsure about the seems like we would be pushing it with the tow vehicle that we have (which we do not want to change as it is my daily driver). I love how spacious the 25 feels with the added length and width-especially since we have 3 boys in the mix is the priority for me, so I would rather size down to the 23 if it means less chance of issues while travelling.

What do you guys think? He seems to lean to the 25, but now is confused as well....just want to make the right, safe choice.

This is so stressful!! First world problems I know, but still stressful LOL

Edited to add: We also would be keeping the 69 Overlander, which is 27 feet a 25 IMO would be almost redundant...he seems to think he might sell it, but I know him...he "collects" certain things and I am sure would love an entire storage area dedicated to VW and AS!!
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Old 07-14-2015, 09:07 AM   #2
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2005 25' Safari
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Hi, my 25'er has a tongue weight of 900 lbs and some have reported a tongue weight of around 1100 lbs; In my opinion this would be too much for your tow vehicle. Even a23'er which has a GVWR of only 300 lbs less than my older 25'er could be too much.

You will also hear that towing a 34'er with a Prius in OK and that a Kenworth would be marginal for towing a 16' Bambi.
Bob 2005 Safari 25-B
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Old 07-14-2015, 09:58 AM   #3
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Robertsunrus: Yes, this is all confusing...going to the canam site makes it worse as there are people towing 31 footers with tiny vehicles!!

I was even leery of the 2016 23D, and we did look at 19', but there is zero chance of fitting a family of 5 in there

We towed the 69 Overlander from Ontario to California with zero issues, but it weighs less than the new new 23D.
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Old 07-14-2015, 10:20 AM   #4
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Even a 23D is a push for 5, unless the children are very young and 2 don't mind sleeping with each other. Closet space is limited in both the 23d and 25 models, probably a little more wardrobe space in the 23d compared to a 25. Holding tanks are smaller in the 23d.

There are numerous threads on this forum with folks towing with the Touareg but they are towing with very little stuff in the vehicle other than two people and managing what and where they put stuff in their Airstream.

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Old 07-14-2015, 10:59 AM   #5
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I have a 25 FB and tow it with a 2010 Mercury Mountaineer V* with towing package. It tows the 25 just fine. No sway at all, no problems with handling or cruising at 65 mph. Mountains are also no problems and neither is stopping. Your VW should do fine. In addition, the bed in the 23 is awful! I had a 19' Bambi and one of the reasons we got rid of it was the bed. Its small, making the bed is about impossible and whoever sleeps on the outside has a heck of a time getting up in the middle of the night.
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:15 AM   #6
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Agree with hobiedog. We find the Bed to be too small in our 2013 23d and making it each day is a major pain in the rear. We'll be moving up to 25 or 27 footer in the next few years. Can't help you with TV concern, but with 5 traveling I'd go as big as your budget and TV will allow.
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:45 AM   #7
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2015 25' FB Flying Cloud
Sandy , Utah
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I agree about the 25 vs 23. Get the 25. I tow a 25FB with an Audi Q7 TDI. Same platform as the Touareg and the Porsche Cayenne. There is an interesting thread on this issue. If you search for Cayenne towing you will find it. I also started one about towing with the Audi Q7 TDI. A lot of good information. I leave one propane tank home. Been using one for two months and still 3/4 full. I found a nice cover for the spare tire and put it under the dinette while traveling. That dropped the hitch weight from 837 to 735 as measured with a Sureline Tongue weight scale. Careful loading of other things got it down to 685. Close enough. I also use a Blue Ox WD hitch. It tows beautifully!
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Old 07-14-2015, 11:55 AM   #8
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Waitsfield , Vermont
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We tow our 25" 2014 Flying Cloud rear bed with a 2014 Touareg diesel and love it! We did go to CanAm in London, Ontario to have our hitch reinforced and to improve the weight distribution. In addition to a special brace welded on under the car, they shortened the distance between the trailer and the car by an inch or two. We now use a sway bar (CanAm recommends two, but one of us (!) is a bit stubborn! This solution is working well for us. We carry a normal amount of stuff, using the "way back" of the car for tools, weber grill, etc. No problems with weight! If you have doubts, questions, etc., get in touch with CanAm for advice. Good luck finding the perfect trailer...we love the 25 footer!
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Old 07-14-2015, 01:13 PM   #9
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2015 27' FB International
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If safety is your concern,

then don't push the limits. Overkill, and have some breathing room on the gear side. I presume the three boys will be getting bigger and heavier and will have their own gear to take along. Keep the Touareg. It sounds like a great little car and it's a diesel. Just don't tow with it. Get a new 3/4 ton diesel pickup with a towing package. That will give you the torque you need and you will get things like extendable towing mirrors and trailer brakes installed. See the threads for people who didn't get those things and now regret it. Get a ProPride or Hensley Hitch. Hubby drives the pickup and you drive the Touareg. We put a SnugTop shell on our truck and carry our gear in the bed to lighten the trailer.

Yes, you can tow anything with anything. Do you want to?

Then, I'd lean towards the 25'. More than enough power to tow it. It will fit in any NP RV spot. If it's available with twin beds, be sure to check that one out.

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Old 07-14-2015, 01:55 PM   #10
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Old 07-14-2015, 02:05 PM   #11
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we tow a 23D (2007) with a MB 350

Diesel with the same sort of tow ratings. It works marvelously. We have often considered going to a 25 ft., but don't because of the number on Nat. Park and Nat. forest campgrounds with length limited sites, but not because of tow limitations. Of course you will hear tons of people who say no, too heavy. There was a recent thread with VW, Audi, Porsche etc tow vehicles, lots with 25 ft. AS. Some had concerns with warranties-limit, but not with towing or actual safety. Two of us with two cats travel very comfortably in the 23 ft. rear bedroom, as much as six months a year. I wouldn't do it with three kids, but then again, I wouldn't do much of anything with three kids along, my choice, my preference.. Don't worry much about the published limits, they are done to prevent all types of lawsuits, not just for safety. Get the proper hitch set up, and enjoy. and the previous comment about those who say you can tow with a bicycle or only with a semi tractor are accurate... you will see both sides on these forums.
"Honor those who serve by listening to them and caring. Parades end, caring needs to be there every day."
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Old 07-14-2015, 05:58 PM   #12
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Huntsville , Alabama
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We just moved up from a 19' to a 25' and the extra space is worth it, even if you have to get a new tow vehicle. You will have the trailer much longer than the TV.

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Old 07-14-2015, 05:59 PM   #13
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Argyle , Texas
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I do not know one thing re: the requirements/stats, etc. I can tell you I pulled a 25 ft. Safari on a 3800 mile trip into the Northeastern mountains in October of 14 with a 2004, Z71 Chevrolet 1/2 ton pickup and had not one ounce of trouble. It pulled like a dream. The pickup has no special features other than a tow package - which I did use - off and on. Good luck.
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Old 07-14-2015, 06:14 PM   #14
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2015 23' International
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We have a 23d and while we love it, I also wish we had a 25. The 25 is a big jump in roominess. Bathroom arrangement is much nicer. As others have said, the bed in the 23d is cozy for two adults and hard to make. The 25 twin provides for a space efficient layout and the added advantage of serving as a separate "den". Both are Airstreams and great trailers.


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Old 07-14-2015, 06:24 PM   #15
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When I picked up our 2013 25FB International Serenity from the dealer in Los Angles, the Shureline scale reported a tongue weight of 1,150 pounds with full propane and water tanks, all awnings, a 155 watt dealer solar panel on the roof and the Hensley hitch head attached. Nothing else was in the trailer. My 2007 Mercedes ML320 CDI diesel had no issues climbing the mountains out of Palm Springs while maintaining the "posted" speed limit of 55. I did down shift from 7 to 5 to keep rpms at 2200. I had taken it to CanAm in London, Ontario to have the hitch reinforced and the Hensley stinger modified.

The numbers across the CAT scales were okay with just me in the car.

After loading the trailer with all our camping stuff and both of us in the car, the scale numbers were a no go for the Mercedes. The tongue weight had increased to 1,175 pounds. The trailer scaled 6,950 pounds of it's 7,300 pound GVW rating.

We upgraded the tow vehicle to a 2012 Dodge 2500HD diesel pickup and all weight issues disappeared for the 25FB and the 2014 Classic model 30 with a GVW rating of 10,000 pounds. We load the truck bed with whatever we want and typically run down the highway around 19,250 pounds with the Classic. Our Classic has the ProPride hitch (second generation Hensley design).

I will retry my 2007 Mercedes on a 2015 23D International Serenity with the Hensley hitch head, all awnings and full propane and water tanks later this week.
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Old 07-14-2015, 06:44 PM   #16
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We had a 2014 Flying Cloud 23D and traded it in for a 2015 International 25 rear twin. We found the bed in the 23D to be too small, hard to get in and out of especially if one person was sleeping. We love the 25 with the twin beds, it offers more interior room, more exterior storage, and the beds are easier to make and offers more sleeping area. We also like the ducted air on the 2015, much quite that the 2014.

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Old 07-14-2015, 07:03 PM   #17
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Oakville , Ontario
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With 3 kids I'd get the 27'. Why shuffle around the bed ?

People are happy towing the 25 with the Q and you've got 1000lbs less in the Reg.

Having your WDH hitch dialed in just right is important. There are people here with 60k trucks and near 100k trailers complaining about spending 2k on hitch/brake and sway controllers/WDH/sway bars/ball weld work.
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:32 PM   #18
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By all means go with the 25FB. You'll love it.
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:46 PM   #19
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Salt Lake City , Utah
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We were in a very similar scenario a few months ago. We have a similar SUV, 2006 LR3 V8 and did not want to buy a new TV. We wanted the smallest TT that would fit our needs and we have three kids! I was very safety conscious and did a lot of research on the weight limits and optimum WD/Sway setup.

We decided the 23D was the biggest/heaviest one we could tow with our car. I think I would prefer the 25 RB for the back-facing dinette and maybe the bathroom setup right outside the main bed, other than that, it really doesn't provide any additional sleeping area for the kids so they would NOT benefit from the bigger one.

The 23D bed is small but not uncomfortable. I questioned weather the hubby (6') would be OK with it and we have both been totally fine with it. I like to cuddle, but you can still both sleep on it without touching if you really want to. I don't think it's hard to make (which I was also concerned about), ironically, because it is small, so it's really easy to reach the other side. We have a light down comforter on it with a duvet. I think it's a bit weird that couples prefer to sleep in separate twin beds! I guess this point is really up to individual preferences.

Kids are 5, 7, and 10. The two younger share the dinette bed. We pulled out the other bed for the 10 y.o. the first time and then decided it really wasn't necessary. She just sleeps on it as a bench. At some point, the boys will probably be too big to sleep together but it will be quite a while before this happens. We've actually already bought a 5-person instant tent for whenever they decide they want their own space to sleep in. However, the front dinette/bench area has a really spacious feel for sleeping, more so than the actual bed in the back.

The only drawback to kids in the 23D vs the 25 I see is the bathroom is right next to the bed. I want some alone time in the morning so I've tried to tell them that's not a public area until we're up.

Other than that. I think I would feel really stressed about safety with the 25' and not enjoy that aspect of it. It's not that our car can't pull it. But when it comes to unforeseen emergency maneuvers, stopping, or downhill grades, that's when you need to consider the weight/size of what you're towing more seriously. I like the "compact" size of the 23D, it's easy to maneuver in the city (I've towed it) and does seem easier to fit in many campgrounds.

Another thing to consider, is that some people towing with Touaregs and similar SUVs seem to be couples and they are doing special things to reduce tongue weight such as removing spare tires, gas tanks, and packing light in the car. With three kids, I feel you just can't do that. You're gonna have the three kids in the car and all their gear even if you pack light which we try to. Last trip, we had two adults bike behind the TT and little kids bikes in the back of the LR3. On another trip, we put two light kid kayaks inside the TT. It's too difficult to reduce weight with a whole family which is another con on the 25' and longer TTs in my opinion.

We did some primitive camping for six days with the kids and didn't run out of water even though I washed way too many dishes. It was very positive.

Well, hope that helps. There doesn't seem to be too many votes for going smaller so I thought I'd represent.
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