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Old 01-02-2015, 08:33 AM   #41
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No problem Steve.

Do you really think he's underpowered with some 400 ft lbs of (diesel) torque at a low rpm? He asking about a 25' Airstream, same model I tow.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:43 AM   #42
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In a lot of circumstances, yes. And do you know that he has the Diesel version, or is it gas. I don't remember that being stated.

And as we all know, there's a lot more to it than power. I was totally dissatisfied with my 5.3L GMC 1/2 ton pickup when I went from a vintage 23' to a later model 25' wide body. But, maybe I'm harder to please. I also keep going back to M. Stephen's experiment with a smaller car as a tow vehicle in the real world of Southern California in the summer. I don't want to be restricted to the weather, or altitude that I tow in, within reason.

Edit: Just looked back, and yes it is the "d" version, so that should be good for power, if things like the cooling system is up to it.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:44 AM   #43
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AND



No one needs any towing experience to determine that this is a dangerous combination. There isn't enough fairy dust in this world to make this combo safe. A simple application of the skills that we all should have learned in 4th grade mathematics is all that is needed. SIGH!
...and that pretty much sums up the strength of your argument, Airrogant.
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:09 AM   #44
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I find it interesting these threads always turn into the same argument. Seems there will never be an end to it, but I have given it a lot of thought.

There seems to be several different types of towing "groups" if you will, here and so different ideas of what makes a good tow vehicle.

You have the retired and full-time or retired who travel almost as much as the full timers. Then you have what I'd call the seasonal campers. Then still, are the still working people who basically camp on weekends and vacations. Probably big differences in amount of miles towed, or kilometers, and areas of travel.

There are those with the luxury of owning a dedicated tow vehicle, and those who's tow vehicle must also be the daily driver. Many different circumstances.

The fact is, if you really want to, and really work at it, you could probably tow some sort of Airstream with any vehicle legally licensed to drive on the roads today. But the question remains, how long, how many miles or kilometers, how comfortably, and how safely will it do it? And contrary to some people's beliefs, there are major differences between towing in the cool North and the Desert Southwest, or the mountains.

We each have to make our own decisions based on our own needs. Some day most of us will learn that our needs are not necessarily the same as all others, hopefully.
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:12 AM   #45
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Also, I have seen you mention several times that trailer brakes take care of stopping the trailer and if this is not the case then there must be something wrong with the set up. Just wondering, do you get the same stopping distance when you slam on the brake at 60 MPH with AND without your 8000# trailer in tow?
If you read my post again, you'll see that I clearly state that stopping distance increases without trailer brakes, for all vehicles.

The conversation was specifically about the commonly brought up nonsense argument that "the brakes are overloaded", i.e the brakes will fail in an unspecified but usually assumed to be catastrophic fashion killing busloads of orphans, not about the payload, which is an entirely different argument.

This completely ignores the fact that trucks a: sport a far longer stopping distance than most other vehicles and b: don't come with magical extra stopping power built in that somehow only manifests itself once a trailer is attached.

What people frequently ignore is the importance of momentum and kinetic energy and how a vehicle is engineered to deal with these forces. Size is not a guarantor of safety there.

The payload argument, where I am actually in agreement with you, is separate from this, even though you ignored the effect of WD in your calculation.


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Claims such as this (or that some hitches "eliminate" sway) sure will make Sir Isaac Newton roll in his grave.
The Hensley changes the direction of the outside forces the trailer is subjected to in such a way that no swaying of the trailer occurs. They don't disappear, they are being redirected, in the process eliminating the physical manifestation of trailer sway. Is this hair splitting enough now?
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:22 AM   #46
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The BMW has a payload capacity of ~1100# (per door sticker on driver side B pillar).
Sounds about right. If you want to load a dead weight in the cargo area of the X5, that would be a good figure to keep in mind.

If you want to calculate about total vehicle capacity, you could take the official GVWR, and deduct the curb weight (varies with model) and come out at 1400 lbs. That respects the published axle load capacities as well. I think that is the way Newton would have done it.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:06 AM   #47
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...and that pretty much sums up the strength of your argument, Airrogant.
What on earth does that mean? If you want to say something that other readers can understand, you might consider spending a few minutes going over it in your head before and after typing it.

If you're trying to be nasty, keep up the good work. Why do you want to knock me down? Does it make you feel better about yourself and your grossly underpowered TV?

Life is too short to get your knickers in a twist every time someone disagrees with you. Especially when you are wrong.

Happy New Year to you too.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:10 AM   #48
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Airrogant, these are your fellow Airstreamers. Be nice, our forum is usually much, much more civil than others you may be familiar with.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:17 AM   #49
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Hitch Recommendations Wanted for 25RB-BMW X5d combo

Airrogant, you don't know enough to determine wrong from right, much less why. There is no end of reading here and elsewhere to give perspective. Avail yourself of it. Quit being a troll. You have an interest in the subject so do the work.

Start with the SAE papers such as Bundorf, et al.

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Old 01-02-2015, 10:26 AM   #50
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Airrogant, you don't know enough to determine wrong from right, much less why. There is no end of reading here and elsewhere to give perspective. Avail yourself of it. Quit being a troll. You have an interest in the subject so do the work. from the AIRphone
Now that is excellent advice!
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:26 AM   #51
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Airrogant, you don't know enough to determine wrong from right, much less why. There is no end of reading here and elsewhere to give perspective. Avail yourself of it. Quit being a troll. You have an interest in the subject so do the work.


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Here we go again. Name calling phase has started in full force...


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Old 01-02-2015, 10:39 AM   #52
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I think that you guys might have been sleeping that day in your physics class. ..... If the BMW's brakes are overburdened enough, the BMW will take longer to stop then a GM truck whose brakes aren't overburdened. THAT is simply a matter of physics.

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The brakes of a heavy truck don't come with additional "just in case" stopping power built in, they are designed to stop the vehicle plus load - but that's it, as is the case for any vehicle.

The BMW has a top speed of around 130mph and weighs around 6000lbs loaded. If we fall back onto our high school physics knowledge for a moment, then momentum is mass x velocity (weight x speed), which for the BMW means that top momentum is p=780,000.

The brakes of the BMW are designed to safely deal with this, these are normal operating conditions. They do this by changing kinetic energy into heat energy, which means the biggest issue brakes face is heat dissipation.
Let's go one step further with the high school physics. Compare an approximately 6000 lb SUV with a 3/4 ton pickup. We know that the SUV has better stopping power with only a driver aboard, from the test results reported above. Now let's consider the additional braking demands brought on by other use conditions. Things like mass and velocity.

Here is a comparison. The pickup has brakes designed to handle the additional weight of the design payload. Let's put this truck at 65 mph, and compare empty with loaded. Probably about 50% more mass. Braking demand increases linearly with mass, so that is 50% more demand on the braking system. The truck is designed for it; there will be a resulting greater stopping distance, but the truck is designed to handle it without breaking. The fully loaded truck is unlikely to be going much over 65 mph, so let's leave that one there for a moment. Now take the SUV. The X5d can do 130 mph. The same model (same brakes, etc) but with a different engine can do more, but let's keep to the diesel. Before we even consider any additional payload, the vehicle has been designed to stop from 130 mph. The Germans engineers are like that, very thorough. Autobahns and all. We know that the demands on the braking system go up with the square of velocity, so double the speed means 4 times the demands on the braking system of the SUV. We could also add in the 1100 lbs of payload the SUV is designed for, but just think about the speed for a moment. The demands are much more relevant than any consideration of additional weight, which seems to be the primary argument of the "heavy duty pickups are better able to stop trailers" crowd. Now, we could work out how fast a fully loaded HD pickup can be driven and still stop as designed, and play with the variables, but it doesn't much matter. Velocity matters more than mass.

High school physics.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:41 AM   #53
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Are you under the impression this is new to the discussion?


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Old 01-02-2015, 11:02 AM   #54
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Sounds about right. If you want to load a dead weight in the cargo area of the X5, that would be a good figure to keep in mind.

If you want to calculate about total vehicle capacity, you could take the official GVWR, and deduct the curb weight (varies with model) and come out at 1400 lbs. That respects the published axle load capacities as well. I think that is the way Newton would have done it.

The payload sticker on the driver side door jam is exactly that: the GVWR minus the curb weight of your specific vehicle, with its options, etc. You can verify this by filling up the tank and going to a CAT scale. Published payload figures are always exaggerated (I'm pretty sure they don't include a full tank in those exaggerated figures). Door jam stickers are relatively accurate, for my vehicle it was off by 50#.


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Old 01-02-2015, 12:28 PM   #55
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Hi, I have heard, or read, this statement so many times that it makes me sick. How do you, or anyone, else know that it "eliminates sway completely" if your set-up never swayed???????? You have to have ants before you eliminate them. You have to have sway to eliminate it. To eliminate something, you have to have it first. Ten years, and who knows how many tens of thousands of miles, in conditions where most people would stay home, and I haven't had any sway either.*** Is it my hitch, my tow vehicle, my Safari, my whole set-up, or my driver ability?



*** Correction: "In the ten years that I have owned my trailer, it has only once, swayed violently out of control; It was parked in my driveway during a 5.0 Earthquake."

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"Hi, I have heard, or read, this statement so many times that it makes me sick."

Bob,

Your font indicates you were really sick. I hope your feeling better.

I have never experienced Hitchitis with the haha on the Classic, but the Reese straight line was a bit wretching at times.
The enlightening thing is I didn't even know I was 'sick' until the haha was installed....umm, interesting.

Bob
Hi, Bob Thank You for being one of the few who understands; And yes, I'm feeling Better now.
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:34 PM   #56
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Are you under the impression this is new to the discussion?


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The name calling, or the physics? Not at all, if your response was directed to me. If we didn't discuss things that had been hashed over multiple times, it wouldn't be called a discussion board.

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Old 01-02-2015, 12:38 PM   #57
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I definitely agree with you about the PPP hitches, they are remarkable. But that's not to say they do not have their "issues". I don't believe there is a "perfect" hitch for every situation, and if there were, very shortly there would only be that one hitch manufactured. Almost every situation is a little different.

Hi, for me, the infamous Hensley Bump as you're going down hill making a sharp turn when you hit your brakes is one that I don't care to have. The extra weight of these type hitches is another one that I don't care for. The extra length doesn't work for me either. Also the major rebuild that most people don't find out until this hitch breaks too. As for the cost, I can easily afford one, so that doesn't matter to me.
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:48 PM   #58
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At the risk of getting accused of having an agenda just because we tow with a 3500 Dodge I would comment on the braking issue. Trying to project the effect on stopping distance of a TV based on a simple analysis or on published stopping distances of an empty vehicle is pretty much impossible. Primarily this is due to the design of the vehicle in question and the way that modern ABS systems work. In the case of unloaded trucks the rear axle is so lightly loaded to begin with that that with the weight transfer that takes place during braking, the rear axle becomes extremely light unloading the rear tires. The ABS prevents lockup but the result is that the rear brakes contribute very little to overall braking.

In the old days an unloaded pickup was evil in a panic stop with the rear wheels locking up. This is why some of the earliest ABS systems were on the rear axle only of pickups.

When a load is in the bed of a pickup there is now enough load on the rear axle that even with weight transfer the rear brakes contribute more to the overall braking effort. The result is that a loaded pickup stops almost as fast as an unloaded one. You might find the article in this link interesting. It includes brake test results of 2011 model year pickups both empty and with a 2000 lb load in the bed. With the 3/4 ton trucks the loaded stopping distance only increased around 5 feet and with the 1 ton trucks the increase was around 1 ft. and the GM actually stopped in a shorter distance with the 2000 load. 2010 HD Brake Tests - PickupTrucks.com Special Reports.

I believe that most passenger vehicles have a better front to rear to weight balance and that the effects of weight transfer and the interaction of the ABS are therefore reduced. However without some real test data that is only a guess.

While this situation is not the same as towing a trailer I think it illustrates that there are many other factors in vehicle braking and trying to make projections on what will happen under different conditions is not all that easy.

Anyway I agree that each of us has our own needs in a TV and what works for us isn't the answer for many others.
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:48 PM   #59
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There seems to be several different types of towing "groups" if you will, here and so different ideas of what makes a good tow vehicle.

You have the retired and full-time or retired who travel almost as much as the full timers. Then you have what I'd call the seasonal campers. Then still, are the still working people who basically camp on weekends and vacations. Probably big differences in amount of miles towed, or kilometers, and areas of travel.

There are those with the luxury of owning a dedicated tow vehicle, and those who's tow vehicle must also be the daily driver. Many different circumstances.
Hi, I fit into the group of those who are retired and travel thousands of miles in all kinds of weather conditions. We have traveled through 14 western states and 3 western provinces so far. Anyone who has read my blog knows where we have been and what conditions we have towed in.

Right now we have three motor vehicles. My famous Lincoln Navigator which has done it's job towing my Safari for over ten years. My wife's BMW X-3 which will never tow anything. And my new F-150 which is waiting for it's turn to tow. All three vehicles are used as daily drivers too.
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Old 01-02-2015, 12:55 PM   #60
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In the old days an unloaded pickup was evil in a panic stop with the rear wheels locking up. This is why some of the earliest ABS systems were on the rear axle only of pickups.


I believe that most passenger vehicles have a better front to rear to weight balance and that the effects of weight transfer and the interaction of the ABS are therefore reduced. However without some real test data that is only a guess.
Hi, in the old days most pickups were regular cabs with an 8' bed. These could get scary in a panic stop while empty. I believe that trucks like my new F-150 are a different animal. Now it seems that four door crew cabs with short beds are much better balanced and the norm now days.
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